> Capital equipment suppliers have been increasing their forecasts for revenue growth in 2000 as chip manufacturers begin to add new wafer fabs and backend assembly plants. Last week, for example, Applied Materials Inc.–the world's largest semiconductor equipment supplier–announced it had increased its forecast for industry growth in wafer fab equipment sales to 46% from a projection of 19% at the end of last year (see Feb. 16 story).
> The strong wave of new orders “confirms the strength of the current market cycle,” said Stanley T. Myers, president of SEMI.
So you are saying, just like the Internet, there may or may not be a painful AI burst in a few years, then exponential grow in decades to come? What is the time window to fit your narrative?
Yeah I always find dot com burst comparison apt because like, yeah market corrections will probably happen, but even if you invested in big tech RIGHT before the burst you would probably still be very rich today if you just held.
no, it's very hot, and the fans are loud and obnoxious so they keep putting it in data centers near places that don't really want it, and they install lots of natural gas turbines because the grid isn't enough and that's louder too, and then the cooling often needs a lot of water, and -- really unpopular overall, as it turns out!! huge backlash. and that's before, you know, allll the job impacts, which is when it gets ugly and threatens to complicate the whole consumption-driven structure of the economy.
... but the little dgx spark is in the room with us! it's pretty smart-ish, in a pinch!
Yes, I have no doubt that AI is going to seriously impact the economy over time. I have lots of doubt that it can impact the economy sufficiently quickly and with enough impact to pay out all the very, very, very large bets being made on it. Even as the AI quality curve has been running ahead of most predictions, its actual impact on the economy has been running well behind.
I am watching the dawning realization among the management class that even if coding costs drop to zero, Amdahl's Law means that perhaps productivity doubles for most software engineers, rather than goes to the MOON. AI can help some of the other bottlenecks, but not 100%.
On the positive side, we programmers have been trying to collectively explain to management for decades now that our jobs are not just 100% banging away at code on keyboards, we're not just interchangable code monkeys. Well, they're getting their noses rubbed in it now, complete with metrics and charts and all the other things they value more than the feedback from their employees.
In fact I was just noticing this week... in the past few months I had been really banging away at a lot of code projects. I was doing that whole "3 or 4 streams going on at once" that many of us have talked about, with a variety of mixed feelings. But in the past few weeks that seems to have starved out. I seem to have burned through the things that I was blocked on code for, and had a reasonable business case to pursue. Now my projects are all blocking up on non-code things again... communication with other teams. Review of documents that are irreducibly things humans need to review. Coordination and planning. Applying human attention to cover over the way that even the best frontier models still seem to have huge gaps in their superficially-expansive automated testing code that they write for their own code. I'm still sometimes unblocking multiple things at once and can briefly have multiple projects going, but then I hit a blocker somewhere and I end up unable to continue having multiple simultaneous code projects going at once.
(The document review is a particularly interesting case. The documents in question are something we expect some humans to at least skim, but are going to be basically a meta-program for AIs programming the rest of the company's code. It is important to get it right because every error is going to magnify quite a bit. AIs are helping a lot with that document, yes, I certainly agree we are proceeding more quickly with it than the same project 5 years ago would have gone, but it is also irreducibly sopping up a lot of human attention.)
Point of all this being that the casual presumption that AI will just utterly destroy the entire economy because it is good at coding may prove to be, well, yeah, exactly the same as the assumption that we are going to all be rich by 2002 because we'll just shift the entire economy to be on the internet and everything will multiply by 1000 in just a couple years as a result. But everything can't be shifted on to the internet. I can't eat a web page. AI can't do everything, and as it advances the things it can't do become a larger and larger percent of the remaining pie as a result. It seems to rhyme a lot with the dot com crash.
I’d think that orders for long lead time rivalrous slots of a very finite resource are basically OOTM call options for future demand. It says something that firms think demand is plausible but not a whole lot about how probable it really is. You can always idle these things, you can’t conjure one immediately.
It's certainly an indicator. But, just like airplane orders, the backlog is long enough that you have to put orders in on a speculative basis.
If everything goes as planed, we'll need new equipment in a couple years, so order now. If things don't work out as planned, you might be able to sell your slot, or push it back a few months, or cancel it.
In a frothy market, you don't really know from order backlogs how many orders are based on firm plans and how many are we might want to build chips, so let's order a machine and see if we want it when it comes up.
> Companies buying those machines need years to get their money back. If they didn't believe they would make a good ROI they wouldn't buy as much.
In the late-1990s companies were building out fibre optic networks, as they believed they would get a lot of ROI from all the Information Superhighway demand. The expected demand never came in the expected timeline.
Of course demand eventually used up all the dark fibre over the course of many moons, just not quickly enough to save many companies:
ASML sell photolithography machines, which presumably can be used for many kinds of chips: CPUs, GPUs, flash, RAM, etc...
They don't need to be AI chips, so even if the AI bubble bursts before they managed to get a ROI, they can switch to other applications that need high end electronics, such as PCs and smartphones, maybe cars.
> Companies buying those machines need years to get their money back. If they didn't believe they would make a good ROI they wouldn't buy as much.
But if they're in FOMO mode, they might not be thinking about ROI at all. Or if they're in bubble-optimist mode, they would just assume their ROI will be good.
Despite the fact that chip making machines come before chips, this seems like a lagging indicator, not a leading indicator.
These would be among the first orders placed in a build-out plan, and the build-out plans are first in a boom. The bust phase would very well happen before the orders are completed, and orders would not decline until the bust phase starts?
I don't think "running out of steam" is the expected failure mode here. We are talking about bulk ordering machines that produce chips that in turn will hit the market in half a decade. That's like adding power plants to the grid that runs the ball pump inflating the ballon. ASML will probably be the last that faces the ripples of the AI bubble going bust.
The internet bubble popping did not cause internet traffic to decline -- on the contrary internet traffic increased rapidly during the bubble pop.
Similarly, I don't think the AI bubble popping will cause token demand to decline. On the contrary, I predict the bubble pop will happen because of a recognition that tokens are a highly competitive industry, thus the margins of frontier AI firms aren't sustainable, popping their valuations.
If you buy the machines and not use them, at most you lost several hundred of millions of dollars (not really, because that machine still retains value for you or someone else later).
On the opposite end, if you don't buy the machines in time, mispredict the demand and can't produce, you lose tens of billions.
the site threw up a modal, blocked me from scrolling, then locked the browser, so I couldn't read everything, but from what I could see the gist is people are still over-ordering therefore the boom is going strong.
Yes. ASML is filling order book for 2029 and 2030. I am just not sure, with how long-term investment the chip fabs are, would the slowdown in datacenter demand be visible on ASML's side first or last?
Feb 2000: Record orders for chip gear push SEMI index to four-year high
https://www.eetimes.com/record-orders-for-chip-gear-push-sem...
> Capital equipment suppliers have been increasing their forecasts for revenue growth in 2000 as chip manufacturers begin to add new wafer fabs and backend assembly plants. Last week, for example, Applied Materials Inc.–the world's largest semiconductor equipment supplier–announced it had increased its forecast for industry growth in wafer fab equipment sales to 46% from a projection of 19% at the end of last year (see Feb. 16 story).
> The strong wave of new orders “confirms the strength of the current market cycle,” said Stanley T. Myers, president of SEMI.
This time it's different.
So you are saying, just like the Internet, there may or may not be a painful AI burst in a few years, then exponential grow in decades to come? What is the time window to fit your narrative?
Yeah I always find dot com burst comparison apt because like, yeah market corrections will probably happen, but even if you invested in big tech RIGHT before the burst you would probably still be very rich today if you just held.
You do realize the same was true every year leading up to 2000.
The peak is always before the fall by definition.
Just because something has peaked SO FAR is a very poor approximation that it has peaked completely.
This time we're building AGI, so yes, this time is different.
Is the AGI in the room with us?
Stop already with the reddit comments.
no, it's very hot, and the fans are loud and obnoxious so they keep putting it in data centers near places that don't really want it, and they install lots of natural gas turbines because the grid isn't enough and that's louder too, and then the cooling often needs a lot of water, and -- really unpopular overall, as it turns out!! huge backlash. and that's before, you know, allll the job impacts, which is when it gets ugly and threatens to complicate the whole consumption-driven structure of the economy.
... but the little dgx spark is in the room with us! it's pretty smart-ish, in a pinch!
Can you not feel it’s growing presence?
>building AGI
Great strategy. Like growing a metric ton of HeLa cells in the hope someone will assemble a super brain out of them.
I can’t tell whether this is sarcasm or not.
The dot.com bubble didn't pop because the web was a bad idea.
Every time is different, that doesn't stop it rhyming.
Yes, I have no doubt that AI is going to seriously impact the economy over time. I have lots of doubt that it can impact the economy sufficiently quickly and with enough impact to pay out all the very, very, very large bets being made on it. Even as the AI quality curve has been running ahead of most predictions, its actual impact on the economy has been running well behind.
I am watching the dawning realization among the management class that even if coding costs drop to zero, Amdahl's Law means that perhaps productivity doubles for most software engineers, rather than goes to the MOON. AI can help some of the other bottlenecks, but not 100%.
On the positive side, we programmers have been trying to collectively explain to management for decades now that our jobs are not just 100% banging away at code on keyboards, we're not just interchangable code monkeys. Well, they're getting their noses rubbed in it now, complete with metrics and charts and all the other things they value more than the feedback from their employees.
In fact I was just noticing this week... in the past few months I had been really banging away at a lot of code projects. I was doing that whole "3 or 4 streams going on at once" that many of us have talked about, with a variety of mixed feelings. But in the past few weeks that seems to have starved out. I seem to have burned through the things that I was blocked on code for, and had a reasonable business case to pursue. Now my projects are all blocking up on non-code things again... communication with other teams. Review of documents that are irreducibly things humans need to review. Coordination and planning. Applying human attention to cover over the way that even the best frontier models still seem to have huge gaps in their superficially-expansive automated testing code that they write for their own code. I'm still sometimes unblocking multiple things at once and can briefly have multiple projects going, but then I hit a blocker somewhere and I end up unable to continue having multiple simultaneous code projects going at once.
(The document review is a particularly interesting case. The documents in question are something we expect some humans to at least skim, but are going to be basically a meta-program for AIs programming the rest of the company's code. It is important to get it right because every error is going to magnify quite a bit. AIs are helping a lot with that document, yes, I certainly agree we are proceeding more quickly with it than the same project 5 years ago would have gone, but it is also irreducibly sopping up a lot of human attention.)
Point of all this being that the casual presumption that AI will just utterly destroy the entire economy because it is good at coding may prove to be, well, yeah, exactly the same as the assumption that we are going to all be rich by 2002 because we'll just shift the entire economy to be on the internet and everything will multiply by 1000 in just a couple years as a result. But everything can't be shifted on to the internet. I can't eat a web page. AI can't do everything, and as it advances the things it can't do become a larger and larger percent of the remaining pie as a result. It seems to rhyme a lot with the dot com crash.
You can tell they’re serious because they’re proposing data centers in space as a near-term solution.
But those tulips are so pretty!!
I’d think that orders for long lead time rivalrous slots of a very finite resource are basically OOTM call options for future demand. It says something that firms think demand is plausible but not a whole lot about how probable it really is. You can always idle these things, you can’t conjure one immediately.
Welcome to the field of real options! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_options_valuation
The title makes no sense... how does ASML orders where you get the machine in the far future predict AI spending?
It's certainly an indicator. But, just like airplane orders, the backlog is long enough that you have to put orders in on a speculative basis.
If everything goes as planed, we'll need new equipment in a couple years, so order now. If things don't work out as planned, you might be able to sell your slot, or push it back a few months, or cancel it.
In a frothy market, you don't really know from order backlogs how many orders are based on firm plans and how many are we might want to build chips, so let's order a machine and see if we want it when it comes up.
Companies buying those machines need years to get their money back. If they didn't believe they would make a good ROI they wouldn't buy as much.
> Companies buying those machines need years to get their money back. If they didn't believe they would make a good ROI they wouldn't buy as much.
In the late-1990s companies were building out fibre optic networks, as they believed they would get a lot of ROI from all the Information Superhighway demand. The expected demand never came in the expected timeline.
Of course demand eventually used up all the dark fibre over the course of many moons, just not quickly enough to save many companies:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecoms_crash
I'd like to point out that the demand for AI exists today.
As in OpenAI is at capacity, 6.1 Sol is served at 30 tokens per second and with frequent capacity errors.
Anthropic seems better now but were also working hard on expanding capacity.
I have no crystal ball to see how future demand and capacity will develop, but as of today these data center investments appear to be fully utilized.
Some people anyway seem to think a collapse is inevitable.
ASML sell photolithography machines, which presumably can be used for many kinds of chips: CPUs, GPUs, flash, RAM, etc...
They don't need to be AI chips, so even if the AI bubble bursts before they managed to get a ROI, they can switch to other applications that need high end electronics, such as PCs and smartphones, maybe cars.
And incidentally, believing that you can keep making a good ROI even if it's not true is what fuels a bubble.
> Companies buying those machines need years to get their money back. If they didn't believe they would make a good ROI they wouldn't buy as much.
But if they're in FOMO mode, they might not be thinking about ROI at all. Or if they're in bubble-optimist mode, they would just assume their ROI will be good.
More importantly, if the market goes south, they rip up the contracts
Presumably it indicates confidence from chip makers in long-lasting demand. With a signal with actual stakes, not just words in a shareholder meeting
It means companies are expecting demand for AI chips to keep increasing
Or companies want the market to think they are expecting demand.
Aren't they always selling everything they manufacture? No matter if you are in a boom or a bust, ASML will always have a years long backlog.
Despite the fact that chip making machines come before chips, this seems like a lagging indicator, not a leading indicator.
These would be among the first orders placed in a build-out plan, and the build-out plans are first in a boom. The bust phase would very well happen before the orders are completed, and orders would not decline until the bust phase starts?
You sell the most shovels right before the gold rush ends.
I thought the fear is that AI spending is much higher than the earnings
I don't think "running out of steam" is the expected failure mode here. We are talking about bulk ordering machines that produce chips that in turn will hit the market in half a decade. That's like adding power plants to the grid that runs the ball pump inflating the ballon. ASML will probably be the last that faces the ripples of the AI bubble going bust.
Agree, and orders dont mean liquidity, billing, revenue or profits. If it blows nothing of that Will happen.
The internet bubble popping did not cause internet traffic to decline -- on the contrary internet traffic increased rapidly during the bubble pop.
Similarly, I don't think the AI bubble popping will cause token demand to decline. On the contrary, I predict the bubble pop will happen because of a recognition that tokens are a highly competitive industry, thus the margins of frontier AI firms aren't sustainable, popping their valuations.
Until we find a better substrate, silicon IS the future.
Strong orders predicated on future earnings of OAI and Ant?
"Archduke's Death Removes Danger of European Conflict"
"Agreement made in Munich - Peace in our time"
"We will not have any more crashes in our time."
- John Maynard Keynes, 1927
"Effective immediately, there is an ENERGY CEASEFIRE in the War between Russia and Ukraine. Both parties have agreed. Do not break it!"
The stock price did not move.
So nothing was eased.
How so? The stock is near historic highs
If you buy the machines and not use them, at most you lost several hundred of millions of dollars (not really, because that machine still retains value for you or someone else later).
On the opposite end, if you don't buy the machines in time, mispredict the demand and can't produce, you lose tens of billions.
Hmm. In a boom people over-order.
the site threw up a modal, blocked me from scrolling, then locked the browser, so I couldn't read everything, but from what I could see the gist is people are still over-ordering therefore the boom is going strong.
Yes. ASML is filling order book for 2029 and 2030. I am just not sure, with how long-term investment the chip fabs are, would the slowdown in datacenter demand be visible on ASML's side first or last?