Copyright does not protect AI-generated content in EU

(mathstodon.xyz)

66 points | by u1hcw9nx an hour ago ago

65 comments

  • t-writescode an hour ago

    This matches historical precedent in other nations where copyright was not extended to a photographer when a primate took a photo of themselves.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_selfie_copyright_disput...

  • pizzly an hour ago

    As software, creative works, science, etc become more and more contributed via AI does that mean all future works will not be copyrighted or patented? Under our current copyright culture and laws obviously not but that does open the question to how much does a human have to contribute and what evidence is required to show that a human contributed enough so that it can be copyrighted and patented. Some time in the future (may be many years) science may become to complicated for humans to understand fully with AI systems researching themselves. Current patent laws in many places including US says inventions created entirely by artificial intelligence cannot be patented. This future may be coming. What will the new copyright and patent laws look like in the future? Do we need copyrights and patents anymore?

    • raincole 42 minutes ago

      It means as long as you can find a few employees who testify that they made "creative input" during the process and nobody can disprove that, you're fine.

      It's like things that are already in public domain. Even if you make a coloring book out of paintings in public domain, it doesn't necessarily mean others can just print your book as-is.

      • asdfsa32 9 minutes ago

        You can blame the governments for all sort of inefficiencies but any operation that impacts taxes runs a tight ship in most developed nations, this include things like copyright law, census, and anything statistics.

        If companies get slope with creative output to the point that "a few employees" can reproduce it in shadow markets, don't expect to get copyright protection without giving governments revenue and speech-control.

      • pizzly 37 minutes ago

        Perhaps but what about individual works done not via a company. Say you are a author and someone falsely detects a AI watermark in your book. Is the testimony you provide enough to override that falsely detected AI watermark? My feeling is that there will be an industry that arises that proves you contributed to the works you want copyrighted.

        • raincole 34 minutes ago

          (I think) the case depends on what AI watermarks are. As far as I know, things like SynthID has practically zero false positives.

          • pizzly 5 minutes ago

            My understanding is that you get back a percentage from SynthID regarding how confident it thinks the text is generated by AI or not. The question is what percentage would be considered undeniable that it is AI generated or require more than just your testimony to prove that you actually did the work yourself. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-08025-4 (Google Deepmind) was using a "Watermark detectability is measured using the true-positive rate (TPR) when the false-positive rate (FPR) is set to 1%" for instance in their research paper. This 1% was set arbitrary just for the research paper but what percentage should it be set to?

      • Obscurity4340 37 minutes ago

        Like being an executive producer

    • 0x20cowboy 18 minutes ago

      "Content that is entirely generated by artificial intelligence is not protected by copyright."

      If that is faithful reading of the law, that makes sense. I know a number of people who use AI, but none of them (that are making anything actually useful) have the output "entirely generated" (aside from some POC tests that never see the light of day).

      I have a hard time believing anything of value, anything worth copyrighting, could be entirely generated by AI.

    • Eridrus 29 minutes ago

      This is less relevant for logos & creative works, but things that enable companies to do production will go back to being closely guarded and sharded secrets, which is what the patent system was trying to resolve (though we can certainly argue the success of it).

      If companies fail to protect their investments in generating IP, they will stop investing in generating it.

      And unless IP generation costs (all in, including the humans telling them what to generate) fall close to zero, it will be bad for the world if companies cannot recoup investments in generating new IP.

      We would expect this to hit those industries relying on IP protections the most, e.g. pharma.

    • sva_ 37 minutes ago

      > Content that is entirely generated [...]

      Take note of the qualifier entirely. If you're working with an agent steering it to produce the results you want, it would be an entirely different story.

      • pizzly 34 minutes ago

        Wheres the limit. Would a prompt "Create a system that does x" and no other feedback count? Or do need to do 10 prompts to steer your agent to the results you want. What about just 1 additional prompt. Somewhere there will be a line.

        • oblio 31 minutes ago

          Legal systems are fuzzy. The limit will be what courtrooms decide. There will never be a ">75% of content" law, everything will be left to interpretation, laws are not source code.

      • koolala 30 minutes ago

        Is working with an agent different than constantly editing an image with fine tuning prompts? Both can be entirely generated.

      • colordrops 36 minutes ago

        Where is this qualification in the legal language?

        • _aavaa_ 32 minutes ago

          Where is the legal language?

    • dev1ycan 42 minutes ago

      Why would copyright and patents exist when the US blatantly stole the entire world's knowledge to train their AI models (and China distillled from it)

      • benjismith 40 minutes ago

        Knowledge cannot be "stolen"

        • sebastiennight 32 minutes ago

          You wrote your house's security code on a Post-It note. Somebody came in as a houseparty guest and saw the note, and discretely copied it onto their hand to get access to the house during your next vacation.

          Which verb would describe their knowledge of this security code?

          • dbetteridge 5 minutes ago

            Obtained, read, viewed, learned, discovered.

            The knowledge wasn't obtained illegally or illicitly, immorally perhaps.

            Illegal entry/trespass is a crime regardless of the method used however.

            In your analogy copying the code (online content) isn't necessarily illegal, however using that knowledge without compensation, permission or attribution may be a crime (depending on copyright law, judges rulings etc).

          • gruez 29 minutes ago

            "eavesdropped"?

            "spied"?

            Whatever it is, slapping "steal" on it because what was done is wrong, and stealing is wrong, is the same sloppy logic that the copyright lobby used in the 80s/90s.

            • Planktonne a minute ago

              If 'steal' doesn't fit, then neither do 'eavesdrop' or 'spied'.

          • koolala 28 minutes ago

            The crime there is using that knowledge illegally to break in.

          • mitaphane 28 minutes ago

            learned

  • socalgal2 4 minutes ago

    So this means you can not use AI for the majority of open source projects since GPL, MIT, BSD, etc are all copyright declarations and they'd be being made for code which you can not copyright.

  • jmward01 12 minutes ago

    I don't see an easy test here. Worse, I see the beginnings of a test that is technical and very likely to not match the future of how we will interact with these things. We have to start somewhere but I'm not sure 'Neither mere prompting nor the selection between several AI suggestions is sufficient as a human creative contribution.' is the right place to start. I think we need more examples of what does constitute 'human-centric' and work from there. I also don't think that any system that says 'you didn't do enough work so it isn't human-centric' works. Any system like that will require a reexamining of copyright in general. There is a lot of low work copyrighted material out there. Just because 'AI' didn't build it doesn't mean the same tests shouldn't apply.

    Some examples of why I think this is really hard: Say I build a story generation system. I work hard on building an agent swarm of actors, critics, editors, researchers. I craft into the various agents concepts of story arcs, outlining techniques, character development. I build a huge well thought out process for how to agentically write an actually good story, so long as you give it a title. Heck, I even design and train my own custom LLM with original layer ideas and novel training techniques to use on this system. After all that I then take that final step and give it a title. Do I have no claim to that? I probably put more work and creativity into it than an author would have a book. What if I then gave it 500 titles? 5,000? Would my claim degrade the more titles I fed it? Is it a percentage of work question? What is the core concept here that defines 'human-centric'? What is the cut-off here?

    Let's go even further. I don't prompt. I live in a world with unlimited context models. I have a conversation about the book I want it to write. During that process I reject some ideas and accept others. I didn't give it a 'system prompt' but essentially all I did was prompt it and select versions I liked. Is that not human centric? How about if I asked it for advice and it did some editing work on my story? Did that make it not human centric even though the starting text was mine? What if that starting text was 99% replaced with a version 10x as verbose. Defining based on how you interacted with the model (prompted and selected) just seems way to weak to be a clear test.

    • trickypr 4 minutes ago

      I think there is an easy test: if you didn’t write it, it’s not yours.

      If we go back 10 years and your friend says “I have an idea for an app, here it is,” and you build it, you own the copyright because you wrote it.

      You give an idea to the pile of math calculated of the stolen work of humanity, the math owns it (which it can’t, so no one owns it).

      No matter how detailed of a conversation you have with a friend, I don’t think they have justification to claim copyright over code written by you.

    • atomicnumber3 9 minutes ago

      Information wants to be free. We should simply dispose of copyright. With LLMs, waters that were already muddy are now a thick slurry. And it's only going to get worse.

      It's an antiquated mechanism and is far more abused than it is actually used at this point.

  • apatheticonion 17 minutes ago

    Does this mean someone could develop a switch emulator using an AI and Nintendo couldn't win a lawsuit against them?

    Does it enable decompilation remasters of classic games?

    It feels like AI is a cleanroom laundromat

    • jdswain 6 minutes ago

      Not a lawyer, but I'd expect that decompilation creates a derived work which is still subject to the copyright of the original.

    • smilespray 15 minutes ago

      Definitely not clean room, quite the opposite.

    • cwillu 15 minutes ago

      “That doesn't give you copyright, but it does give you liability for the content.”

  • zmmmmm 11 minutes ago

    it's sort of non-controversial at the extreme end I think - where there is no human contribution, why should there be protection?

    But it just begs the actual question of how much human contribution there needs to be:

    - I wrote the prompt (not enough)

    - I wrote many prompts and iteratively refined them using distinctly human skill (open question, but loosely seems still not enough, potentially in the EU but maybe in the US?)

    - I made minor modifications post-generation (open question, probably enough)

    - I made equal or more contribution to the final result (this better clearly have copyright protection or we are in real trouble)

  • femto 44 minutes ago

    1) Does applying a copyright message warrant that the content has not been generated by an AI?

    2) If one applies a copyright message to AI generated output, is that fraudulent?

  • Balooga 18 minutes ago

    This then implies that in the EU, AI-generated content cannot have a license applied? MIT, GPL, CC, etc?

  • generationP an hour ago

    Why should anyone want to have copyright on AI-generated content?

    • thfuran an hour ago

      For the same reason they'd want copyright on anything else.

    • xphos 41 minutes ago

      I feel like this question is typed wrong but the same reason someone wants copyright on human work to make money by prevent other people from stealing your work

    • toomuchtodo an hour ago

      To profit under intellectual property constructs. As it stands, AI output is effectively in the public domain.

      • derektank 15 minutes ago

        Given the cost of generating images/text/etc. is much lower when using an AI system, as compared to a human, this seems appropriate. The purpose of intellectual property is to encourage people to invest that time into creating works that benefit others. Perhaps there’s an argument for a shorter copyright period to cover the cost of the compute spent, but certainly one wouldn’t expect AI intellectual property to require a similar level of incentive to produce.

      • phoronixrly an hour ago

        Probably unless it infringes on others' copyright as it does...

  • efficax an hour ago

    Does this apply to software?

  • bahmboo an hour ago

    I will add a pixel by "hand" with software on my computer.

    • Retric an hour ago

      That’s not enough to generate copyright protection.

      The creativity requirements may seem arbitrary but there’s a legal distinction between a sculpture and a standard brick.

      • gruez an hour ago

        >The creativity requirements may seem arbitrary but there’s a legal distinction between a sculpture and a standard brick.

        Or more relevantly, a recipe find on recipe sites (with the author's entire backstory) vs a sequence of instructions. The latter is not copyrightable, even if there was some creativity that went into it (eg. word choice).

  • bediger4000 an hour ago

    Interesting. In addition to Anthropic's watermark use to prevent model collapse, we can definitively call something copyrighted or not copyrighted. This is a boon to everyone who consumes culture.

    • jefftk an hour ago

      That doesn't actually work. Say you took a book and used an AI to translate it into another language. The translation wouldn't have an additional copyright, the way it would if a human had done the work, but the output would still be restricted by the original copyright. So the presence of the watermark does not tell you that the text is public domain.

      • pizzly 41 minutes ago

        I thought translations can be copyrighted separately. Their are translators for instance who translate very old texts from other countries/languages and then sell that book/translation using copyright to protect this business models? Not sure but does this mean if you as a human wrote a book in English and then used AI to translate to another language say French then that translated work would not be copyrighted. Not sure how this would work.

        • freeone3000 30 minutes ago

          Translation, in and of itself, is viewed as a creative work. A translated work has two copyrights: the original, and the translation, with permission needed from all rightsholders to redistribute. A new translation of a public domain work (Emily Wilson’s The Odyssey) has one copyright holder, the translator. An existing work (the English translation of The Three Body Problem) has at least two: the original author and the translator.

          However! Since AI work is noncopyrightable, the AI’s effort in translation is simply ignored. Claude’s The Odyssey would have zero rightsholders, and remain public domain. ChatGPT’s translation of The Three Body Problem would still be under Liu Cixin’s copyright.

    • chungusamongus an hour ago

      Lmao. No. Content that is wholesale generated by AI is also not subject to copyright in the US. It relies on the honor system and you can always modify the material juuuust enough that you can claim the copyright. In practical terms, this changes nothing.

  • jongjong 30 minutes ago

    If the AI is treated as an agent and not merely as a tool, then this should also apply on the training side.

    AI agents are effectively consuming people's code without permission. The MIT license only gives rights to "any person obtaining a copy of this software".

    So the rights are given to a 'person', and the rights pertain specifically to a person who performed the act of 'obtaining a copy of this software'.

    Note that it says 'obtaining a copy' and uses the word 'software', not 'code'. 'Software' is to 'code' what 'shop' is to 'building'; if you bought the shop, it doesn't necessarily mean you own the building. These are two different things and require different clauses.

    Scraping the code in-situ from millions of repos automatically, systematically, and indiscriminately with no intent to use or distribute the software, does not involve a 'person obtaining a copy of the software' The subject at hand is an 'AI agent scraping the code of the software'; that's not the same subject and the MIT license says nothing about this situation.

  • chungusamongus an hour ago

    The same is true in the US. This is a nothing burger.

    • VanTheBrand an hour ago

      It hadn’t been established yet in the EU. It would be a big deal if it went the other way in Europe so it being the same isn’t a nothing burger.

      • semiquaver 20 minutes ago

        It hasn’t been established in the US either, despite how desperately some people want to misinterpret the handful of cases so far.

        • derektank 7 minutes ago

          It’s been established in the DC circuit, where basically any challenges to copyright office decisions would need to be brought. For all intents and purposes, until the Supreme Court or Congress decide to weigh in, it’s pretty well established that AI generated content cannot receive copyright. There will probably be some decisions around the edges regarding when human editorial input might result in a copyright being awarded to the editor, but it would be very surprising to see the precedent overturned completely, particularly given its grounding in previous caselaw.

        • aeon_ai 2 minutes ago

          Very clearly established.

          AI only = no copyright.

          “A Single Piece of American Cheese” got a copyright because it had human involvement in compositing.

          Theatre D’Opera did not because it was primarily prompt driven.

          Thaler didn’t because he said it was machine derived.

          Humans must be involved for a copyright.

      • chungusamongus 39 minutes ago

        Did anyone expect it to go the other way? Europe is more hardcore about copyright than the US, and that's saying something. Germany is practically...well I was going to say they're nazis about it but perhaps that's in poor taste.

    • phoronixrly an hour ago

      It may be a nothing burger for US companies/persons, but the EU is fortunately not governed by US law. This is big news for us here.

      • mod50ack 44 minutes ago

        It's not surprising, though, since the ECJ held in the Infopaq case that copyright (under the EU Directives) can only exist for something which is the intellectual creation of an author.

      • chungusamongus 38 minutes ago

        It's not big news if you know anything about Europe in relation to IP law. No one expected a different result.

  • bbor 35 minutes ago

    Thank god! A victory for everyone who believes in the freedom of information, regardless of what you think about AI.

    Copyright didn't always exist, nor should it continue to. Hell; it must not.

    I think the words (read: hilarious 1.25pp pamphlet) of Aaron Swartz on the topic are just too poignant to ignore, given the paths of Reddit (corrupted yet democratic), IP law (malignant yet showing cracks), and government survellience have taken in the Trump era. Despite the dated context... he really says it best:

    https://ia800101.us.archive.org/1/items/GuerillaOpenAccessMa...

  • consoleable an hour ago

    If copyright does not protect AI-generated content, then AI should not be restricted from generating content that falls under copyright protection; yet, the reality is otherwise.

    • VanTheBrand an hour ago

      That’s not how that would work at all. The copyright of a derivative work has no effect on the existing copyright of an underlying work.

      If you record yourself reading a book, you own the audio recording copyright but it would be a copyright violation to reproduce that copy without a license for the underlying rights.

      In this situation:

      If the AI generates the audio recording of a book, no one owns the copyright of the audio recording but it would still be a copyright violation to reproduce that copy without the underlying rights.

    • jraph an hour ago

      These two things that are quite distinct. Whether something is protected by copyright, it should not be counterfeiting regardless.

    • phoronixrly an hour ago

      > If copyright does not protect AI-generated content, then AI should not be restricted from generating content that falls under copyright protection

      What in the world makes you think that?

      What is this implication based upon? Where does it say in copyright law that if no copyright arises for your work then it does not infringe the copyright holders' rights? This is completely devoid of logic...