RISC-V is... fine. It satisfies my two requirements for an ISA as a hobby CPU designer, which are:
1. Supported in mainline LLVM and GCC.
2. I can implement it without lawyers sending me a love letter.
Everything else, I can fix in post. There are enough good ideas spread across the extensions that I can assemble a reasonably put-together, curated embedded ISA with competitive performance and code density that admits a simple implementation.
I think Dmitry's points are largely on-target, though I have filed my usual statutory complaint that every rant that includes a bitfield diagram for the RISC-V J format should accompany it with a similar diagram for the Arm T32 BL encoding.
> It satisfies my two requirements for an ISA as a hobby CPU designer...
You probably have some unstated requirements as well, such as available toolchains and "vetted well enough to actually be able to run code."
Risc-V now occupies the Schelling point for people who, for whatever reason (rent-seeking and security top the list) want to leave the x86 and Arm ecosystems.
the significance and allure of risc-v, the reason china is investing heavily in it right now, has little to do with the technical details of how it works under the hood, it's the fact that it is an open standard not encumbered by intellectual property law. even if it isn't technically the best general-purpose processor architecture, it sets an important precedent by proving that it is possible to develop an open public architecture that the world can use to build computing devices without being extorted by a multinational corporation charging licensing fees or a geopolitical superpower enacting tariffs and sanctions.
> it's the fact that it is an open standard not encumbered by intellectual property law.
There are actually many of those. But Risc-V has become, through effective marketing, the Schelling point for anybody who wants to avoid the x86 and Arm ecosystems, both for the rent-seeking behaviors you mention, and also, in some instances, for security reasons.
And, as others have mentioned, the ISA doesn't really matter. As long as it's agreed upon, then the CPU vendors can optimize on one side, and the compiler writers on the other side.
Sure, Risc-V has its warts, but you can certainly say the same about all the rest.
Started reading, however I wanted to add this in: a lot of people expect RISC-V to do too many things, and nearly all of those things are "beat every other architecture out there in every way/shape/form, while also being open".
The reality? The fastest "available" RISC-V CPUs don't match the best chips in terms of speed, power consumption, or die area. "available" obviously means the chips that have been released to the public and can be independently benchmarked.
I do think that is okay, however I also think that those involved with RISC-V aren't helping much, and current attempts at standardizing seem to be just creating a bigger problem.
That being said, RISC-V does seem to perform well in specific niches.
I wrote an RV64IMA emulator recently. I just needed a virtual CPU core that could boot linux, and RV64IMA seemed like the simplest way to do that - and I think that's more or less true.
But then I wanted to be compatible with off-the-shelf toolchains and binaries, and I found myself needing to extend the ISA profile to RV64GC. Not a huge lift, but it involved pulling in a softfloat library. That got me as far as booting Alpine linux.
And then I wanted to be able to boot Ubuntu, which needed RVA23, which was comparatively a much bigger lift, involving the vector instruction set among many other things. At this point I think I'd have been better off just emulating aarch64.
The conclusion is honest, and you can of course brute force any ISA into any role. I used to loathe x86 for that reason, but now that I'm older I respect the game.
X86 is the best argument that you can build a fast efficient RISC-V chip... because the X86 instruction set is a much bigger mess.
It just blows my mind sometimes when designers don't learn insanely obvious lessons from the past, basic stuff like "complexity is evil" and "make the fast path overlap with the most common use cases" and "a standard with N optional extensions is actually N! (N factorial) standards."
That being said all real world architectures seem to have messy corners and warts. RISC-V was a chance to do away with a lot of that and they... didn't?
I think MIPS is a great example, and even there I don't think there's the bizarre bifurcation of ISA options RISC-V brings to the table.
As a fellow olderster, I can't help but think that after almost 50 years of "ISA X is sooooo much better than x86 it's obvious ISA X is the future and x86 will be dead Real Soon Now (for whatever todays version of x86 is)" I can only shake my head ruefully and say "ping me when that happens".
Controversial Take (that history proves isn't): Software matters; ISAs don't.
Why is he complaining about everything being optional in RISC-V? Isn't that the whole idea of RISC-V? The market can sort it out for themselves. RISC-V is already dominant in the MCU space despite its flaws, and many of them will be solved in due time.
Most MCUs are used for dead-simple solutions, like electric blankets and microwaves with segment displays or LEDs. Whether their interrupts are handled in 44 or 22 cycles doesn't really matter that much.
And RISC-V does have a link register, making returning much faster when the parameters for the interrupt can all fit in registers and no external memory access is needed, as is the case with most MCUs which put the stack in RAM. To fetch the return address an external memory access is always needed even if there are no parameters.
>"RISC-V is already dominant in the MCU space[...]"
Where are you getting the idea that RISC-V is dominant? As someone who works in this space, that doesn't jive with my experience or the sources I've seen.[1] 32-bit microcontrollers only recently achieved a majority market share for gosh sakes!
He explains, at length: there is no sane way to determine what the hardware you are running on actually supports, and so there is no sane way to ship compiled code that is both compatible and performant.
We already had the mystery meat CPU wars several decades ago. We know how to make sane ISAs now and should be past that.
I'm not sure this is a real problem - for embedded you know a priori - for arbitrary desktop/SBC machines, misa will be available in kernel mode and /proc/cpuinfo will be available in user mode.
You don't need to probe what hardware you're running on because you know being the manufacturer. The code is bespoke for your solution and nothing more. No foreign code is going to run on it.
Different problems require different solutions. An electric blanket doesn't need a barrel shifter for multiplication or even floating point hardware. The ISA can change depending on what's needed to solve a particular problem, not to provide an "one size fits all" solution.
I don't think I've read a more "doesn't actually know anything about how software is produced, but with absolute confidence knows everything about it" post in a very long time.
> You don't need to probe what hardware you're running on because you know being the manufacturer. The code is bespoke for your solution and nothing more. No foreign code is going to run on it.
In practice, this is not the case. The scenarios mentioned in the article involving binary blobs are pretty common, as well as other similar scenarios.
Really, I'm going to go out and say it bluntly: it is just completely freaking stupid to make an architecture where everything is optional but you have no way to query what's present. If you're going to go the optional-pieces route, you have to have a query mechanism of some sort. As the article explains, you cannot even trap instructions on RISC-V to figure out what your core supports, because bad instructions might belong to some other option. Complete. Idiocy.
Because nobody will write software for 300 unique hardware variations of a platform that have inconsistent capabilities. Consistency is one of the reasons why x86-64 with extensions like like SSE, AVX2 etc is popular.
Noone uses an 8051 because it's elegant. Billions are still still sold every year because no matter if you learned it in the 70s or last week and no matter who made it, the basics are exactly alike. Software matters; ISAs don't.
I believe the market will standardize on certain extensions for specific solutions. No one is going to make a mobile phone with only RV32I, for example.
> After being asked for the Nth time to explain, I decided to put it all down in one place so that I could simply link to it when asked next.
Bookmarked, because I've needed the same.
The worst part of all this is that they really should have known better by now. In 1980 you could make these kinds of mistakes, because this was pretty new territory. In 2020, doing this just makes you stupid. Or ignorant. Or both.
6809 is a better exemplar, but, yeah, we knew this stuff way back when.
The problem is that everybody around RISC-V wants to sell IP instead of a chip. Most of the worst brain damage follows from that.
The rest of the brain damage follows from "We want to compete with ARM A-Series cores." No. Just ... no. Nobody willing to spend that much on a processor gives one iota of damn about ARM licensing fees.
So, the semiconductor market wants a cheap, consistent chip that operates in the deep embedded space while the RISC-V ecosystem considers the mere thought of that to be icky beyond reason. And China will push on this like Longsoon and pray that somebody figures out how to make it not suck (Prediction: they won't succeed.)
And, the worst part is that RISC-V has basically lost its window. The single possible advantage that RISC-V had was that as people converged to a shared tooling ecosystem it would create lockout. Unfortunately, that convergence never happened so, at best, we got some shared compilers. And, now, AIs can basically one shot all your other tools around it and probably the compiler not far behind. And there goes your ecosystem lockout.
So … use RISC-V as the strawman, and create a community-based RISC-6 that doesn’t have these weaknesses? Better to get in now before it becomes too solidly entrenched.
You're vastly underestimating the amount of work that has gone into RISC-V that would need to be redone. It's not just a spec. There's an absolute mountain of software and hardware supporting it.
I think a lot of this criticism is completely true. However it's also overblown. I do think the ISA matters, but little mistakes like these definitely don't matter enough to preclude making M-series class chips. The reason it hasn't happened yet is simply time. It takes a really really long time to build up to that level of performance.
They've definitely gone overboard on the optionality stuff though. I don't think it matters too much for the actual CPU design but it makes verification and writing portable software a huge pain. Profiles definitely help but still...
Oh also I feel like you could probably come up with an equally compelling list about any other ISA. It's not like the fact that something has flaws means it's bad.
ALL chip designs are an exercise of minmaxing these 3 variables:
1) power
2) performance
3) die area
SOME chip designs also care about a 4th:
4) die area.
NO design has the best of all...it is impossible since you have to trade 1 for another. The reason x86 has been dominate for so long is that is strikes a good balance across all areas, especially #4. A good balance is what you need for a good chip.
EDIT: oh and you can't beat the system I mentioned above. The laws of physics are the reason why.
1. You have a microcontroller. You're compiling code yourself and the docs tells you what features are available and which compiler flags to use.
2. You are writing application code. In that case you simply target RVA23.
The edge case is the same edge case where you use CPUID on x86, I.e. you want to target say RVA23 and RVA28 in the same binary. In that case you do have to use the OS APIs to discover what is supported... which is slightly annoying, but in practice you're just calling a different function.
In theory `mconfigptr` will eventually make this a lot nicer but nobody has put in the effort to define how it works yet (last I heard they were looking at ASN.1 sick emoji).
> What does a cheap microcontroller core need? Let's inspect what they are used for. Typical use cases are to interface with and quickly reconfigure hardware blocks in a larger chip, eg in an MP3 player, an SD card, or a USB stick. The hard work is done by custom IP and the CPU core is just there to occasionally prod a register or configure something.
It's clear that RISC-V started as an academic exercise (albeit from a group with esteemed credentials) and they had to bolt on these hacks to make it work in industry.
RISC-V is... fine. It satisfies my two requirements for an ISA as a hobby CPU designer, which are:
1. Supported in mainline LLVM and GCC.
2. I can implement it without lawyers sending me a love letter.
Everything else, I can fix in post. There are enough good ideas spread across the extensions that I can assemble a reasonably put-together, curated embedded ISA with competitive performance and code density that admits a simple implementation.
I think Dmitry's points are largely on-target, though I have filed my usual statutory complaint that every rant that includes a bitfield diagram for the RISC-V J format should accompany it with a similar diagram for the Arm T32 BL encoding.
> RISC-V is... fine
Exactly.
> It satisfies my two requirements for an ISA as a hobby CPU designer...
You probably have some unstated requirements as well, such as available toolchains and "vetted well enough to actually be able to run code."
Risc-V now occupies the Schelling point for people who, for whatever reason (rent-seeking and security top the list) want to leave the x86 and Arm ecosystems.
the significance and allure of risc-v, the reason china is investing heavily in it right now, has little to do with the technical details of how it works under the hood, it's the fact that it is an open standard not encumbered by intellectual property law. even if it isn't technically the best general-purpose processor architecture, it sets an important precedent by proving that it is possible to develop an open public architecture that the world can use to build computing devices without being extorted by a multinational corporation charging licensing fees or a geopolitical superpower enacting tariffs and sanctions.
> it's the fact that it is an open standard not encumbered by intellectual property law.
There are actually many of those. But Risc-V has become, through effective marketing, the Schelling point for anybody who wants to avoid the x86 and Arm ecosystems, both for the rent-seeking behaviors you mention, and also, in some instances, for security reasons.
And, as others have mentioned, the ISA doesn't really matter. As long as it's agreed upon, then the CPU vendors can optimize on one side, and the compiler writers on the other side.
Sure, Risc-V has its warts, but you can certainly say the same about all the rest.
Just noting, even if instructions were 100000000000000 bits long, reserving a single bit for 16-bit encoding would waste 50% of the instruction space.
Started reading, however I wanted to add this in: a lot of people expect RISC-V to do too many things, and nearly all of those things are "beat every other architecture out there in every way/shape/form, while also being open".
The reality? The fastest "available" RISC-V CPUs don't match the best chips in terms of speed, power consumption, or die area. "available" obviously means the chips that have been released to the public and can be independently benchmarked.
I do think that is okay, however I also think that those involved with RISC-V aren't helping much, and current attempts at standardizing seem to be just creating a bigger problem.
That being said, RISC-V does seem to perform well in specific niches.
I wrote an RV64IMA emulator recently. I just needed a virtual CPU core that could boot linux, and RV64IMA seemed like the simplest way to do that - and I think that's more or less true.
But then I wanted to be compatible with off-the-shelf toolchains and binaries, and I found myself needing to extend the ISA profile to RV64GC. Not a huge lift, but it involved pulling in a softfloat library. That got me as far as booting Alpine linux.
And then I wanted to be able to boot Ubuntu, which needed RVA23, which was comparatively a much bigger lift, involving the vector instruction set among many other things. At this point I think I'd have been better off just emulating aarch64.
It's basically MIPS all over again
The conclusion is honest, and you can of course brute force any ISA into any role. I used to loathe x86 for that reason, but now that I'm older I respect the game.
X86 is the best argument that you can build a fast efficient RISC-V chip... because the X86 instruction set is a much bigger mess.
It just blows my mind sometimes when designers don't learn insanely obvious lessons from the past, basic stuff like "complexity is evil" and "make the fast path overlap with the most common use cases" and "a standard with N optional extensions is actually N! (N factorial) standards."
That being said all real world architectures seem to have messy corners and warts. RISC-V was a chance to do away with a lot of that and they... didn't?
I think MIPS is a great example, and even there I don't think there's the bizarre bifurcation of ISA options RISC-V brings to the table.
As a fellow olderster, I can't help but think that after almost 50 years of "ISA X is sooooo much better than x86 it's obvious ISA X is the future and x86 will be dead Real Soon Now (for whatever todays version of x86 is)" I can only shake my head ruefully and say "ping me when that happens".
Controversial Take (that history proves isn't): Software matters; ISAs don't.
Why is he complaining about everything being optional in RISC-V? Isn't that the whole idea of RISC-V? The market can sort it out for themselves. RISC-V is already dominant in the MCU space despite its flaws, and many of them will be solved in due time.
Most MCUs are used for dead-simple solutions, like electric blankets and microwaves with segment displays or LEDs. Whether their interrupts are handled in 44 or 22 cycles doesn't really matter that much.
And RISC-V does have a link register, making returning much faster when the parameters for the interrupt can all fit in registers and no external memory access is needed, as is the case with most MCUs which put the stack in RAM. To fetch the return address an external memory access is always needed even if there are no parameters.
>"RISC-V is already dominant in the MCU space[...]"
Where are you getting the idea that RISC-V is dominant? As someone who works in this space, that doesn't jive with my experience or the sources I've seen.[1] 32-bit microcontrollers only recently achieved a majority market share for gosh sakes!
[1] https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/microcon...
He explains, at length: there is no sane way to determine what the hardware you are running on actually supports, and so there is no sane way to ship compiled code that is both compatible and performant.
We already had the mystery meat CPU wars several decades ago. We know how to make sane ISAs now and should be past that.
I'm not sure this is a real problem - for embedded you know a priori - for arbitrary desktop/SBC machines, misa will be available in kernel mode and /proc/cpuinfo will be available in user mode.
You don't need to probe what hardware you're running on because you know being the manufacturer. The code is bespoke for your solution and nothing more. No foreign code is going to run on it.
Different problems require different solutions. An electric blanket doesn't need a barrel shifter for multiplication or even floating point hardware. The ISA can change depending on what's needed to solve a particular problem, not to provide an "one size fits all" solution.
I don't think I've read a more "doesn't actually know anything about how software is produced, but with absolute confidence knows everything about it" post in a very long time.
So you write software for a platform you know nothing about?
So you know nothing about me but engage in ad homen attacks because your fragile ego has been questioned. Keep digging, kid, keep digging.
> You don't need to probe what hardware you're running on because you know being the manufacturer. The code is bespoke for your solution and nothing more. No foreign code is going to run on it.
In practice, this is not the case. The scenarios mentioned in the article involving binary blobs are pretty common, as well as other similar scenarios.
Really, I'm going to go out and say it bluntly: it is just completely freaking stupid to make an architecture where everything is optional but you have no way to query what's present. If you're going to go the optional-pieces route, you have to have a query mechanism of some sort. As the article explains, you cannot even trap instructions on RISC-V to figure out what your core supports, because bad instructions might belong to some other option. Complete. Idiocy.
> The market can sort it out for themselves
Because nobody will write software for 300 unique hardware variations of a platform that have inconsistent capabilities. Consistency is one of the reasons why x86-64 with extensions like like SSE, AVX2 etc is popular.
Noone uses an 8051 because it's elegant. Billions are still still sold every year because no matter if you learned it in the 70s or last week and no matter who made it, the basics are exactly alike. Software matters; ISAs don't.
I believe the market will standardize on certain extensions for specific solutions. No one is going to make a mobile phone with only RV32I, for example.
> Because nobody will write software for 300 unique hardware variations
Who said they have to? One can select a RISC-V configuration for a baseline for a particular purpose. Desktop? Choose the one that's most powerful.
ARM is more popular than x86 and is less consistent than it.
I can definitely see his argument, although I still do believe RISC-V did a lot of things better than x86...
I really do hope that the arch is eventually able to fix this. Better that there be an open ISA than them all be closed IMO.
He has good points, except he misses the goal posts completely.
Better than x86 is a low bar when ARMv8 exists.
Yeah...risc-v can learn from 50 years of x86 (among others). And yet.......
RVA23 hardware is available (e.g. SpacemiT K3)
Some are already on RVA23.1 even before the standard made it to more than 4 manufacturers product lines.
The meme joke about standards is sadly relevant for riscv. =3
https://xkcd.com/927/
> After being asked for the Nth time to explain, I decided to put it all down in one place so that I could simply link to it when asked next.
Bookmarked, because I've needed the same.
The worst part of all this is that they really should have known better by now. In 1980 you could make these kinds of mistakes, because this was pretty new territory. In 2020, doing this just makes you stupid. Or ignorant. Or both.
I’m not so sure - the 6502 existed in 1980 and showed the way.
6809 is a better exemplar, but, yeah, we knew this stuff way back when.
The problem is that everybody around RISC-V wants to sell IP instead of a chip. Most of the worst brain damage follows from that.
The rest of the brain damage follows from "We want to compete with ARM A-Series cores." No. Just ... no. Nobody willing to spend that much on a processor gives one iota of damn about ARM licensing fees.
So, the semiconductor market wants a cheap, consistent chip that operates in the deep embedded space while the RISC-V ecosystem considers the mere thought of that to be icky beyond reason. And China will push on this like Longsoon and pray that somebody figures out how to make it not suck (Prediction: they won't succeed.)
And, the worst part is that RISC-V has basically lost its window. The single possible advantage that RISC-V had was that as people converged to a shared tooling ecosystem it would create lockout. Unfortunately, that convergence never happened so, at best, we got some shared compilers. And, now, AIs can basically one shot all your other tools around it and probably the compiler not far behind. And there goes your ecosystem lockout.
Because selling "bits" is very lucrative, whilst actual hardware can lead to huge losses if it doesn't sell. Just ask Microsoft.
It's no wonder Microsoft is pulling out of the game console market and handing it over to PC manufacturers to make the actual hardware.
So … use RISC-V as the strawman, and create a community-based RISC-6 that doesn’t have these weaknesses? Better to get in now before it becomes too solidly entrenched.
You can't make a community-based ISA, it's not possible unless you have a community-based fab. He who makes the chips makes the rules.
Likely impossible unless you somehow come up with something vastly better (unlikely).
None of these things are remotely bad enough to make the downsides of using another ISA palatable.
Anther ISA like ARM? It seems pretty palatable to just about everyone not academic.
The ARM ISAs are not free to implement. ARM holds patents relevant to the ISA.
[delayed]
You're vastly underestimating the amount of work that has gone into RISC-V that would need to be redone. It's not just a spec. There's an absolute mountain of software and hardware supporting it.
I think a lot of this criticism is completely true. However it's also overblown. I do think the ISA matters, but little mistakes like these definitely don't matter enough to preclude making M-series class chips. The reason it hasn't happened yet is simply time. It takes a really really long time to build up to that level of performance.
They've definitely gone overboard on the optionality stuff though. I don't think it matters too much for the actual CPU design but it makes verification and writing portable software a huge pain. Profiles definitely help but still...
Oh also I feel like you could probably come up with an equally compelling list about any other ISA. It's not like the fact that something has flaws means it's bad.
ALL chip designs are an exercise of minmaxing these 3 variables:
1) power
2) performance
3) die area
SOME chip designs also care about a 4th:
4) die area.
NO design has the best of all...it is impossible since you have to trade 1 for another. The reason x86 has been dominate for so long is that is strikes a good balance across all areas, especially #4. A good balance is what you need for a good chip.
EDIT: oh and you can't beat the system I mentioned above. The laws of physics are the reason why.
I don’t think making optional what optional features are available is a little mistake. It is a torpedo to the waterline.
It's not. In practice you have two scenarios:
1. You have a microcontroller. You're compiling code yourself and the docs tells you what features are available and which compiler flags to use.
2. You are writing application code. In that case you simply target RVA23.
The edge case is the same edge case where you use CPUID on x86, I.e. you want to target say RVA23 and RVA28 in the same binary. In that case you do have to use the OS APIs to discover what is supported... which is slightly annoying, but in practice you're just calling a different function.
In theory `mconfigptr` will eventually make this a lot nicer but nobody has put in the effort to define how it works yet (last I heard they were looking at ASN.1 sick emoji).
What happened to the Rivos accelerator cores?
Meta acquired Rivos last year.
They got bought by Meta who then fired half of them.
> What does a cheap microcontroller core need? Let's inspect what they are used for. Typical use cases are to interface with and quickly reconfigure hardware blocks in a larger chip, eg in an MP3 player, an SD card, or a USB stick. The hard work is done by custom IP and the CPU core is just there to occasionally prod a register or configure something.
He forgot electronic cigarettes (vapes)
It's clear that RISC-V started as an academic exercise (albeit from a group with esteemed credentials) and they had to bolt on these hacks to make it work in industry.
Sad.