Elevators

(john.fun)

261 points | by Jrh0203 2 hours ago ago

95 comments

  • peterldowns 19 minutes ago

    Back in highschool, simulating different elevator algorithms was one of the projects I implemented during my CS class. It wasn't for the class — AP CS did not require anything like actual programming — but it was a fun project.

    A cool connection is that a spinning-disk hard drive (HDD) is actually kind of like one really long elevator, just wrapped around a spindle instead of perfectly vertical. The SCAN algorithm is actually a disk-scheduling algorithm!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elevator_algorithm

  • jgrahamc a minute ago

    It also depends on the person understanding what the elevator button does: https://blog.jgc.org/2010/06/elevator-button-problem.html

  • brandonpelfrey an hour ago

    For folks that have never seen elevator scheduling the game: https://play.elevatorsaga.com/ Enjoy this rabbit hole :D

  • omoikane 29 minutes ago

    > Destination Dispatch [...] are in general worse

    I wonder if this is an artifact of how the author used random destinations. I worked in a building that used Destination Dispatch, and the common travel pattern seemed to be:

    - Everyone who is not on the ground floor generally want to go to the ground floor.

    - People who are on the ground floor generally travel in large groups to the same destination.

    This happens because people who worked on the same floor often leave for lunch at the same time, and return at the same time to the same floor. Destination Dispatch helps in this case because it's batching large groups of people with the same destination.

    • taftster 15 minutes ago

      Yes, it's definitely more likely for an individual already in an upper floor to return to ground than a stop above or below. The people queuing up in simulations don't seemingly get this right all the time.

      Also the group of people going to or returning from lunch is real as well. The grouping factor happens more at the middle of the day and less at the morning or evening. Primarily because of lunch.

  • hermanschaaf an hour ago

    Hah, I thought a lot about this problem while developing Sky Lobby, a mobile game (iOS / Android) about controlling and automating elevators.

    In the game, some of the elevators are automated, and I wanted to choose an algorithm that best aligned with what players would expect an elevator to do. I ended up going with something close to LOOK, which (as the article states) is mostly what people expect. Except in case of ambiguity, I had it prioritise floors that have been waiting longer, to improve the p90, which is important in the game.

    But now, add in these challenges:

    - double-deck cabs (where attached cabs cover two floors at once)

    - transfer floors between shafts

    - express shafts

    and the best (or at least, most expected) algorithm becomes much less obvious! I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out the best one.

    Luckily I was in charge of a game, not a real elevator system, so I just had to find a heuristic that was good-enough, and could tweak the rules to let players manually override the elevator's plan if they don't like where it's going. This seems to have satisfied most players.

    • jamies an hour ago

      Thanks for sharing this. I was just commenting about the challenge of making a fun elevator sim game. This looks great -- can't wait to play with it this weekend!

  • taftster 23 minutes ago

    In these various elevator algorithms, it's not commonly discussed the overall wear and tear on the elevator. More movements would typically translate to faster repair times. Hydraulic fluids needing to be replaced, parts breaking, etc.

    Efficient elevator algorithms will often suggest moving an elevator into a preempted positioning strategy, based on time of day or peer elevator positions. The scheduler might move an elevator up to offset one coming down, for example. The demand-signal algorithms at least minimize movement in this way.

    I think minimizing maintenance at the cost of increasing wait times is probably an important balance to get right. No doubt, the cost owners for maintenance are not going to perceive the wait time of passengers to be as important.

  • orliesaurus an hour ago

    Oh my god, every time I'm waiting for the elevator, I think of how annoying it must be to be someone who's building the algorithm to make sure that you minimize the amount of wait times between picking up people and taking them to their destination. Then I also wonder if the people who apply the logic and program the logic into the elevators are actually evil sadists that are doing it on purpose to make us wait longer enough and suffer a little extra.

    • dbcurtis 16 minutes ago

      I have done several third-party elevator integrations (software that talks to the elevator controller) for coordinating other equipment with the elevator. One thing that always struck me once I had full visibility into the location and motion of all the elevator cabs is how busily they are scheduled. Waiting in the elevator lobby for a cab seems to take forever, but viewed from the dispatch side, it is a flurry of activity and cabs are rarely idle during any hours the building is normally occupied. It is easy to nerd out just watching the status panel.

      Another thing I learned: If an elevator mechanic says: "I'll meet you first thing in the morning." He means something like 4:00AM. They want to get in and out before people start arriving to start their day.

    • dbcurtis 12 minutes ago

      One other thing to add: It isn't the elevator scheduling software being obtuse, that software gets a huge amount of thought. But elevators are expensive, and building owners do not over-spend on a whim. Typically, they have just enough cabs (if that) to handle the expected load.

    • neutronicus an hour ago

      They might have other objective functions like wear-and-tear on the elevators, total energy usage, or something

      • dbcurtis 10 minutes ago

        It's pretty much throughput. The cap-ex of a single cab swamps any other cost, so the only way to reduce total number of cabs is optimizing for throughput.

  • olex an hour ago

    The biggest problem I always have with elevators is not the algorithm, it's the people seemingly being unable to grasp the concept of pressing either the up or the down request button, depending on where they want to go. Almost always I find someone will press both, because "then the elevator comes faster". Completely ignoring the fact that they end up going the wrong way first half the time, and adding an unnecessary halt for everyone already in there. How hard can it be to understand?..

    • Georgelemental an hour ago

      I don't think I've ever seen someone do that

      • summermusic an hour ago

        I haven't ever seen anyone do this in the United States, but I saw it in China and Italy.

        • esperent an hour ago

          I've never seen anyone do this anywhere in the world including Italy.

          I've never been to China but wouldn't you learn quickly after getting in an elevator going the wrong way not to do that again?

          The only exception I can see if there's way more people than elevators and you just need to get spot at all costs.

          • the_af 32 minutes ago

            My wife always randomly hits the up or down button, then gets upset if I explain why she should only pick the one she really wants. She forgets the next time. I think some people never really understand how elevators work.

            See also: the keep open / close doors button. I had one building administrator explain to me we should add a delay of 10 seconds to the "quickly shut door" button because otherwise she kept getting her arm hit by the door. When I asked why we would add a delay to the button that's meant to reduce delays (why not simply wait for the door to close on its own, then?), and whether we should fix the sensor that prevents doors from closing if there's an obstacle instead, she just kept staring blankly at me. I don't think she understood me at all.

            Again, some people simply don't grasp how elevators work.

            • superhuzza 11 minutes ago

              I fear in both cases, its not a lack of understanding of elevators but of common sense...

      • tamimio 38 minutes ago

        Because most buildings now they just put one button so people stop clicking both

        • rsanek 18 minutes ago

          That has not been my experience, and logically it doesn't really make much sense. If you do so, you are making the problem strictly worse.

        • what 28 minutes ago

          What? I’ve never seen that. The elevator needs to know which way you want to go.

    • trivo an hour ago

      And then when the elevator door opens, they ask the people inside: "Are you going up or down?" There's an arrow showing that, for Christ's sake.

      • wpm 30 minutes ago

        Yeah and you can flail your head around looking for the arrow or you can just ask. Especially on a busy elevator lobby there might be multiple cars opening at the same time so you cant even tell from the ding/ding-ding

      • themaninthedark an hour ago

        True but sometimes someone hits a button on the inside by mistake. Or someone was going to get off then decides not to.

        • deathanatos 4 minutes ago

          … and the elevator is still going the way it is going, and that way is still indicated by the illuminated arrow.

        • SoMomentary 33 minutes ago

          Sometimes I think "stupid" questions like these are just a way to break the ice, something that gets used to kindly acknowledge the momentary existence of others in our lives before we continue down our separate paths.

  • heironimus 44 minutes ago

    No mention of an algorithm/sensor for checking capacity of the car. It's a pain when your elevator car shows, it's full, and your request is canceled, meaning you have to press again. Better if the car was full and just moved on.

    I can see how that could be challenging when people get off on intermediate floors, making a full car available again, changing status. And, if 3 people are waiting and there is room for 1, should it stop or not? Etc.

    My favorite takeaway from this is how simplicity often beats complexity.

    • barrkel 22 minutes ago

      Load penalty is part of the Otis RSR algorithm, it's in the article.

  • pseudosudoer 44 minutes ago

    This is commonly referred to as the "dial-a-ride" problem, which is an optimization problem with a multi-variate cost. Back in college for my senior design project we built a multi-axis closed loop servo system which would emulate a slide guitar. The dial-a-ride problem is identical to optimizing travel for a string of notes/chords.

  • dperfect 38 minutes ago

    Destination dispatch should be no worse than standard up/down buttons, right (at least in theory)? It provides additional information about the destination, but it should be possible for that information to be interpreted as if it were just an up/down button press, so RSR could still be used. I have a feeling a better algorithm could in fact make destination dispatch slightly better than RSR... or am I missing something?

    Of course, user error is also a factor, so this isn't accounting for people not understanding how to use it and making things worse that way.

    • brd529 35 minutes ago

      As the article says, the problem with destination dispatch is that it 'locks in' an elevator. The passenger gets told at call time what elevator to go to, and it can't change that mid flight. RSR has the advantage that the passenger has no idea which elevator will come, and so RSR can change the elevator they will get in real-time as conditions change. This was an insight I had not considered before reading the article.

      • dperfect 33 minutes ago

        That sounds like two separate things then. Could you not have people select a destination without locking in an elevator?

        (I've never encountered destination dispatch myself, so I'm not really sure how it works in practice)

        • hypersoar 17 minutes ago

          The way I've seen it work is that there's a touch screen in the elevator lobby. You tap a floor, and then screen will say "Car C" (along with an audible message). The problem is that then the system can't reassign you to a different car after that. You'll typically have a bunch of different people going to a bunch of different floors, and there would be no reliable way to communicate to each individual their new assignment. Each car will also typically display which floors it's going to when it arrives. I suppose that, rather than assigning a car immediately, you could have passengers check cars as they arrive to see if they're going to their desired floor. Then the system could do reassignment, but people would be scrambling to check every car to see if it's the right one for them, and that's assuming that they understood the system. It would be way too chaotic in practice.

      • fellowniusmonk 23 minutes ago

        I think the problem with simulations like this is that it doesn't include the chaos of innatentive humans.

        Forcing functions that dump people into well defined funnels can have such a high net positive effect it more than makes up for theoretical losses.

        It's like narrow, hard road bike tires losing performance because of deflection from rough road surfaces and how long it took designers to factor that in to real bikes.

  • hasteg 10 minutes ago

    Lol, love this post. Every single day when I take the elevators at the office I try and figure out what the algorithm is behind it. Been too lazy to just research it. Now I know!

  • prometheus1992 7 minutes ago

    This is beautiful. By the end of it I started to feel like I was calculating complicated chess lines in a middle game.

  • geephroh an hour ago

    Slightly OT, but this reminded me of Colson Whitehead's _The Intuitionist_[1], an amazing speculative mystery novel about two dueling schools of elevator inspection philosophies: the Empiricists and the Intuitionists.

    1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Intuitionist

  • jhallenworld 13 minutes ago

    What this doesn't include: not all people are equal. Do you want the CEO of your new office building to have to wait behind a bunch of plebeians? At least one car is going to have to be reserved for the better people.

    • dbcurtis 5 minutes ago

      This does happen. I also once worked on a destination-dispatch elevator system installed in a high-end condo building (high-end, as in concierge and parking valet for residents). Anyway... the resident's key card would of course automatically call a cab to take them to their unit's floor, but also the security system had entries for things like "dog owner" and "allergic to dogs" so that the DD system would never schedule them together for the same cab.

  • Waterluvian an hour ago

    Makes me want to play Sim Tower again.

    There’s something so satisfying about watching a machine just dutifully work through queued tasks like this.

  • ryukoposting 22 minutes ago

    My friend lives in a building with one of those super old elevators with the manual double doors and no queuing. It's the sort of elevator that someone probably got paid to operate once upon a time.

    Using such a primitive elevator gave me a newfound appreciation for the complexity of modern designs. The queueing algorithms are subtle but clever, and the difference in efficiency is instantly obvious once you've dealt with the alternative.

  • reader9274 an hour ago

    I feel like most cases of wait times are due to elevators "waiting" empty in the wrong floor. They either all wait in the bottom floor, or all wait where they were last left at. Would be better if their waiting floors were distributed throughout the floors so that first response is fast.

    • dbcurtis 3 minutes ago

      Most systems to that. Empty-cab strategy is a programming option in the controller. If all cabs are idle (very rare) they are typically spread out.

    • Sohcahtoa82 38 minutes ago

      In the middle or end of the day, yes. In the morning, waiting on the bottom floor is the best.

      Unless you're a hotel. Then the timing is flipped: Wait in a distributed manner in the morning/mid-day, gather on the floor in the evening.

      • cruffle_duffle 27 minutes ago

        The problem is that in the morning the “last stop” for the elevator might be the lobby not a mid floor. And so it would have to move itself back up without any passengers or calls to upper floors. Basically “optimistically” moving itself back up. And I wonder if some (most?) control systems don’t do that because of… well I dunno. Lots of elevators have pretty old or basic control systems in them. Maybe predate caring about energy and many also probably aren’t strictly smart enough to be concerned about wear factors and stuff.

        It could also be that you and I simply aren’t privy to what is actually happening “the instant” you are waiting for the elevator.

        …which makes me wonder how often the firmware in these get updated. Assuming it’s not just a pile of ancient relays and stuff. And if, when they do get updated, the algorithms get improved. Or if the algorithm is something that gets sold to the building and “upgrading” is an actual purchase.

        Anyway, I could get a little LLM buddy to look it all up but where is the fun in that?

    • rubslopes 34 minutes ago

      Yes! I always thought that, when unused, elevators should distribute themselves along the floors, weighted by the floors that use them the most.

  • bob1029 38 minutes ago

    Parking is a big factor too. Where you put the elevator when it is not being used can mean the difference between the doors opening instantly and worst case scenario.

  • teepo an hour ago

    I've never really liked Destination Dispatch elevators. Besides struggling to find the car I've been assigned to, sometimes you really have to hustle across the lobby to catch it. Then you also run into visitors that assume it's a normal car and can hit a floor button when the get in, only to realize they've walked into a car without buttons.

    • why_at 32 minutes ago

      >Then you also run into visitors that assume it's a normal car and can hit a floor button when the get in, only to realize they've walked into a car without buttons.

      I work in a building with Destination Dispatch elevators so I'm used to them. I have the opposite problem where I'll get into a normal elevator and just stand there without pushing anything.

    • quietsegfault an hour ago

      What makes me more peeved about destination dispatch elevators are people who aren't used to them, and all pile into an elevator without hitting a floor, thinking one input is enough for everyone. Then, a totally full elevator stops at intermediate floors to pick up callers, but there's no room to get in. If everyone put the floor in as they arrive to the elevator lobby, then the elevator would know how many people are in the elevator and won't overfill them.

      • avidiax an hour ago

        The elevators I've seen have a "group call" feature slightly hidden in the menu.

  • jamies an hour ago

    This is absolute catnip to me. Fantastic job to the author! It really scratches the itch of wanting to understand elevator dispatch algos!

    I want something similar for advanced sensor stop lights...

    I've long toyed with creating an elevator simulator game, but every time I build a prototype I realize it's not that fun to manually dispatch elevators, and playing with algos only goes so far! Elevator Saga is great for the programming side: https://play.elevatorsaga.com/

  • niklasrde an hour ago

    I wonder how a TWIN system with 2 cars per shaft factors in here: https://www.tkelevator.com/us-en/products/elevators/all-elev...

    That will need planning and assignment I guess? But at what load figures does it become more efficient?

  • clarkmoody an hour ago

    One of the most frustrating assignments[1] (2011) in my computer science education was trying to build a better mousetrap for elevator control.

    [1]: https://clarkmoody.com/Moody_AgentBasedElevatorControl.pdf

    • SoftTalker 19 minutes ago

      Disk drive read/write algorithms have a lot in common with elevator algorithms. At least they did in the days of physical heads moving across a platter.

  • efavdb 40 minutes ago

    I recently wrote an article about this problem, and detail one reasonable algo for minimizing wait time. (Doesn’t consider concept of cars being full though, interesting addition)

    https://jslandy.com/elevators/

  • coop57 an hour ago

    You have no idea how excited I was to see this article today. I've long been fascinated with elevators and the algorithms that control them. Thank you!

  • tgsovlerkhgsel an hour ago

    Is there a comprehensive overview of a) multi-bank elevator algorithms that are out there, b) the config parameters that the elevator tech/company can set on an elevator system?

    For example, some elevators allow adjusting the door closing/opening speeds etc., I'd be curious what other things can be adjusted.

  • vachina 25 minutes ago

    Anybody knows what algorithm HITACHI is using on their elevators? Their elevators feels most “responsive” in high rises.

  • sambaumann an hour ago

    This reminds me of elevator saga (https://play.elevatorsaga.com/) - little programming game where you have to program elevator schedules.

  • jihadjihad an hour ago

    In a similar vein, there was an interesting discussion [0] a while back about elevator buttons [1] and how timing for door close/open works, along with a bit of the history and regulations that go into them.

    0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35152341

    1: https://computer.rip/2023-03-13-the-door-close-button.html

  • OJFord an hour ago

    I think this comparison is also assuming the distribution of request & requested floor is uniform? When actually near pairs are less likely (I'll just take the stairs) than bottom to top, so even analysing it is more complex than at first glance.

  • paxys an hour ago

    My biggest pet peeve is elevator banks where they don’t make some number of idle elevators automatically come back to the lobby. Half your traffic is over there! Everyone coming in has to wait an extra minute or two because all your elevators were chilling on the 35th floor and above.

    • mapmeld an hour ago

      My apartment building is replacing the elevators, and someone on staff revealed that the first renovated elevator is intended to pick up only from the lobby (i.e. if you summon an elevator from the 10th floor, one of the others will come). This has caused some grumbling or calling it an "express elevator". In an apartment it really is mostly trips to many floors from the lobby. The only time this maybe would be inconvenient might be in the morning commute, when fewer people are re-entering.

      • cruffle_duffle 22 minutes ago

        You should observe if it is the same elevator all the time and the building people just don’t understand it. Our building elevators (bank of 2) always seems to try to keep one in the lobby. About 75% of the time you get an elevator right away when you call it from the lobby. But it definitely isn’t the same elevator! Allocating an exclusive single elevator to that function would seem to be strictly worse from many angles. Like if you modeled having an algorithm like “elevator 2 only services calls from the lobby” you’d find it would be very inefficient and not every effective. But I can see having one in the bank always returning to lobby right away making sense.

        My guess is whoever hinted at that didn’t fully understand what they were taking about.

  • danielvaughn 27 minutes ago

    I've always wondered about elevator algorithms. This is awesome.

  • realaccfromPL an hour ago

    I absolutely adore this, I am always trying to guess whichever elevator will come in first in large crowded buildings. Thanks for this article.

  • jp191919 an hour ago

    Reminds of something I haven't thought about in a very long time... SimTower

  • zatkin an hour ago

    I think a small improvement that could be made is to have the dot representing the person be colored the same as a dot on each floor, which would obviate the destination floor for each individual.

    • soupspaces an hour ago

      Yes the visualization is great but overused and could also use a stop button. I would have also liked to see different kinds of plots.

  • proee an hour ago

    Don't forget the executive elevator algorithm (EEA), which uses a priority interrupt to take passengers directly to the top floor.

    • mekdoonggi an hour ago

      Also need to make sure you increase the speed going past floors 4 and 13 to avoid bad luck.

  • itunpredictable an hour ago

    I didn't realize that neal.fun had some competition.

  • shadeslayer_ an hour ago

    This article gives me war flashbacks about a particularly irritating OO design interview from 5 years ago.

  • cruffle_duffle 40 minutes ago

    If you like elevator hacking don’t forget the seminal DEF CON talk by Deviant Ollam and Howard Payne: https://youtu.be/oHf1vD5_b5I

    I watch it like once a year because it always tickles some part of me. Like all the different modes you can get an elevator into. The most fancy one people might encounter is when moving into or out of a building. The front office can give you a key to give exclusive control over an elevator so your movers aren’t waiting around on elevators. Put it in that mode and it will stop responding to calls from other floors. Only the person with the key can control the elevator. You get on, select the floor, door closes elevator goes, and then just chills there with the door open waiting for you. Annoying for the rest if the building (the building is down an elevator when in that mode) but is amazing for the person using it! But there are way, way more depending on the installation and function.

    Fun fact: most elevator shafts are sealed at the top as tight as possible to prevent them from becoming a giant chimney in a fire. It never even occurred to me until I was in a mechanical room wondering “where is the hatch to look down the shaft?” The answer is “there is none, and it’s a feature not a bug.” You want to block all airflow so fire doesn’t chase up the shaft into neighboring floors. Who knew!

  • gosub100 an hour ago

    Maybe I missed it, but the algorithm should also redistribute empty elevators that stop too closely to each other.

  • tamimio 40 minutes ago

    As someone who lives in a penthouse, elevator’s frustrations are real struggle especially in rush hours, because the elevator has to travel dedicated to you rather than you piggy backing on one that is already going up or down.

  • mito88 an hour ago

    did he factor in the lifting speed?

  • quietsegfault an hour ago

    I love elevator simulations.

  • moralestapia an hour ago

    >All this technology just to underperform the S&P

    My takeaway is that the benefit of using a much more complex algorithm is marginal.

  • jmyeet an hour ago

    This is a good article. It reminds me of a story.

    At a previous employer we had heteregenous elevators. In one bank, some went to the lower half of floors only while others went to all and the company installed a "smart" elevator system. I kind of became known because I was constantly yelling about this system in the feedback group because I hate "smart" elevators and and (IMHO) they just don't work. What actually works is express elevators and sky lobbies.

    This article covers one of the deficiencies this system had: full elevators. For example, you'd want to go down and an elevator would skip your floor because another had already been assigned. That one would show up full and you couldn't go down. Down wasn't so bad because the stairs weren't a bad option but up was terrible. Going up a few floors was fine. Going up 20 was... a bigger issue.

    Back in the day we had elevator operators and people in the lobby during the morning rush who would shepherd people into particular elevators. I actually think this system works way better than anything technology has come up with. Even if you nail the implementation (and I've never experienced elevators that have), people don't read and will just get into elevators anyway.

    Anyway the article says that generally speaking on smaller banks simple up and down buttons work best. I absolutely agree.

    There's a deeper issue here though and that is solutions looking for a problem. Nobody is making money from up and down buttons. They are fromn selling smart elevator solutions. And you see this everywhere in life. It basically devolves into rent-seeking behavior. Salespeople wine and dine a couple of people responsible for making decisions and then make bank on selling something nobody wants or needs as well as the constant maintenance and updates.

    • marcosdumay an hour ago

      > people in the lobby during the morning rush who would shepherd people into particular elevators

      That's what the no-button elevators with the kiosk does.

  • cubefox an hour ago

    > Everyone has shared the frustration of waiting for an elevator that never seems to arrive.

    Really? Maybe I'm lucky I never had to deal a lot with elevators.