103 comments

  • lbotos an hour ago

    I'll get on my high horse and say you can get solid "DID/Commercial" TVs for not that much more: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1788343-REG/samsung_q...

    I got this a few months ago -- 4k, solid brightness, and ok color.

    Is it the OMG BEST? no. But I Disabled wifi, and even the channel display.

    I use it with an apple TV with CEC on the TV -- I turn on the apple tv, TV turns on straight to apple interface. I turn off from the apple remote, TV turns off.

    It's effectively "an apple TV" -- I'm happy.

    • Banditoz a minute ago

      What's the current OLED recommendation today?

    • gruez an hour ago

      >Is it the OMG BEST? no. But I Disabled wifi, and even the channel display.

      Why not just get a (presumably subsidized) smart TV instead, and skipping the premium? It'd also be not disconnected from the internet, and despite vague HN/reddit speculation that TVs have cell modems in them, that has yet to be confirmed.

      • lbotos 41 minutes ago

        I wanted more control and no UI. The commercial ones do that -- I think this was like $150 more than the "samsung smart ui" one... Never seeing a smart TV interface was worth that for me. YMMV.

      • Barbing 25 minutes ago

        Some instead assert TVs might connect to the first open network available, like if a neighbor briefly opened a hotspot, which sounds more believable.

        • mminer237 14 minutes ago

          Both theories would be easily testable. The danger is also much smaller if it's not on your Wi-Fi regardless.

      • initramfs 33 minutes ago

        I use HDMI on my Smart TV and just disabled wifi because I realized it was downloading more than half my bandwidth (a small amount, in fact). It could have been doing an update but I found no reason to leave it on. Occasionally I'll use YT or Prime since it doesn't have to be tethered to a PC, but overall it's nicer as a monitor than a streaming app.

      • LeoPanthera an hour ago

        If you do this, connect it to the internet at least once, because most smart TVs ship with missing features that aren't activated until you do a firmware update.

        • 05 25 minutes ago

          Were I an enterprising enshittificator, I would certainly make sure to force being online as a prerequisite for basic functionality for any TV that has ever been seen online since that proves that it's capable of connecting. So.. be careful upgrading the shitware, you might get more functionality that you've bargained for. Functionality that you can't downgrade because you don't own the TV.

      • afavour 35 minutes ago

        I have a TCL Roku TV that I use disconnected and with an Apple TV. It still has annoyances here and there, like pausing for three seconds or so on every startup before it switches inputs. I’d pay a mild premium to not have that.

        • initramfs 32 minutes ago

          I've noticed that older TCLs are a bit laggier than Samsung smart tvs. Nice to have one that actually has a fast response to the remote. There was an app that was super slow on it- one of the less popular streaming apps. Although when the firmware updated, it might have erased the entire account and started anew. The Google Play store manages the apps, so I would imagine they get purged when they aren't up to the latest requirements. I am not sure how long the Android/Google OS version would get supports though).

        • Barbing 29 minutes ago

          Same. Our data is worth a lot I guess (not the whole differential but):

          $627 - commercial display

          ~$200 - comparable invasive options

    • newsoftheday 22 minutes ago

      We keep our TV dumb, have a laptop behind it running Kubuntu Linux. Stream in everything in Chrome. Use an Air Mouse and wireless keyboard sometimes. Works great.

    • hoherd 31 minutes ago

      That looks like The Frame from Samsung. Does it have a matte surface? What version of Tizen is it running? Does it have API access?

    • p0wn 26 minutes ago

      Begs the question - why has apple never come out with a TV.

      • MBCook 25 minutes ago

        Why should they? It’s an absolute cutthroat business with next to no profit margin.

        All you gotta do is add an Apple TV and you got everything they would give you. And they make nice margins.

        Apple seems to have next to no interest in making displays at all. We are lucky whenever a new one gets announced.

  • rustcleaner an hour ago

    Never ever connect your "Smart"-TV to your network, or if you have an incurable impulse to then make sure it's on a firewalled gateway-less VLAN. Take the money you save buying the thing (compared to what a profitable "dumb" version would cost) and buy a surplus corporate mini-workstation system, and slap LibreELEC/Kodi or whatever on it, and use that device as your "smart" device. No good for you can ever come from bringing the TV onto the internet... ever!

    (Also: never paypig, never subscribe!)

    • drnick1 24 minutes ago

      This, but LibreELEC or other Kodi distributions suck. They are too limited. Until recently, the best solution was to run a full Linux DE, but now there is Plasma Bigscreen[0] for that. This is basically a DE optimized for couch use with a remote. You can run Kodi as an app, but also stream from a browser, or play games with Steam, etc.

      [0] https://plasma-bigscreen.org/

      • Dig1t 7 minutes ago

        This looks great, it just needs some hardware to run on with a nice remote. Does any hardware like that exist?

        • microcode 5 minutes ago

          An Xbox/PlayStation controller is cheap and high quality.

    • gozucito 11 minutes ago

      I've heard this wisdom before, usually with an apple TV positioned as the alternative, but I've had that setup before and didn't enjoy having to use 2 remotes instead of one.

      A better solution would be to root the damn TV and neuter its spyware/adware crap.

      • cheschire 4 minutes ago

        I only use one remote. The tv remote. I just enable HDMI-CEC

        I keep the Apple TV remote around for extremely rare situations where that doesn’t work but even then, my cell phone has a built in Apple TV remote as well, which makes it even less necessary

      • elahd 5 minutes ago

        Put the TV remote in a drawer and only use the Apple TV remote. With CEC enabled, that one remote will control power and volume for the TV and any connected audio devices. It'll also switch to the proper input when the Apple TV is turned on.

      • jerrysievert 8 minutes ago

        why were you using 2 remotes? did you have other systems attached to the television, such as a game console, or cable?

        the Apple TV provides hdmi cec, which should control your television through the hdmi cable.

      • SchemaLoad 9 minutes ago

        Having 2 remotes is so much easier than trying to flash custom firmware on the TV

        • microcode 8 minutes ago

          You don't necessarily have to flash a custom firmware. Rooting the TV and killing the ad processes is usually sufficient.

      • notatoad 8 minutes ago

        this is a solved problem on basically any modern tv: HDMI-CEC lets your appletv control your tv without using the tv remote.

    • popcornricecake 28 minutes ago

      The only time mine were ever connected to the internet was to update the software, and for that the easiest thing I thought was to host a temporary wifi hotspot (using a phone).

    • lysace 34 minutes ago

      Surely they will just make it mandatory, at some point?

      • MBCook 23 minutes ago

        I remember seeing reports a few years ago about some TV that would constantly complain if it wasn’t connected. I don’t know what brand it was.

  • andai 2 hours ago

    I've always have a deep, instinctive revulsion for smart TVs, but every year I read of some new mandmade horrors beyond comprehension, and it escalates by a few more points.

    • thewebguyd an hour ago

      Same, but for "smart" anything in the home that requires an internet connection and does not let me set it up or run it LAN only.

      People forget the reasons TVs got cheaper is because smart TVs are heavily subsidized with ads and your watch data.

      I have the most "low tech" home of any of my peers, intentionally.

      • drnick1 30 minutes ago

        This. The only "smart" things allowed in my home are those under my control. This means devices that work over Zigbee, or that that run free firmware natively (like ESP32-based devices), or that can be hacked to run free firmware. Everything is orchestrated via Home Assistant and in its own VLAN. It's surprising how far you can get. For example, I recently set up a voice assistant by wiring together a few Home Assistant components and a small local LLM (Qwen 4B). Response times are basically on par with commercial solutions like Alexa, and all processing is done locally.

        • microcode 25 minutes ago

          The experience with this is so much better. Hacking most Tuya based devices has become extremely easy when you use https://docs.libretiny.eu/ Replacing MyQ with ratgdo was one of the best IoT decisions I have ever made.

    • layoric 41 minutes ago

      Coming for PC monitors as well, LG again leading the charge.. see "smart gaming monitor", same BS.

  • cube2222 2 hours ago

    I think it’s worth emphasizing that based on the article, those are third party apps, not first party LG apps.

    Based on the headline I thought it’s the built-in apps.

    • drnick1 28 minutes ago

      LG runs its own spyware already (content recognition).

    • mycall 2 hours ago

      This does raise the question if other Smart TVs with the same third party apps have the same issue.

      • HDBaseT an hour ago

        The LG WebOS Store is a different beast.

        Just browsing the list of apps raises eyebrows for even the most non-tech audiences. 99% of it is spam, with maybe 1% being well known apps like YouTube.

        The rest are weird IPTV Players, Wallpaper apps. It feels like a portal into 2009 apps, but its not.

        • wowczarek 33 minutes ago

          2009 indeed. Their app store was an absolute cesspit even in the early, pre-WebOS days and it hasn't changed much since, like, who would install any of this and why? Even the "official" app selection isn't the best. OS aside, they are pretty good TVs and quite popular, so I find this mind-boggling.

      • OkGoDoIt an hour ago

        In the article they mentioned that Amazon and Roku block apps from using these SDK’s, and specifically after Roku recently made a change to disallow this kind of thing, many of the affected apps were withdrawn from the Roku app store. The implication is that those other smart TVs don’t have the same third-party apps because these apps were specifically created to act as a foothold for these residential proxy networks.

      • MoonWalk an hour ago

        Vizio was caught taking screen grabs and sending them to a server a few years ago.

        • tadfisher an hour ago

          Basically all smart TVs do that. It is how they provide "contextual" features based on the content you're watching, like the names of the actors visible on screen.

          • deeth_starr_v 39 minutes ago

            Not really. They do it to sell to advertisers what you are watching

  • gruez 2 hours ago

    This turned out to be more ethical than I thought. I'd thought there wasn't any consent at all, or the actual mention of proxying was buried in a 20 page EULA.

    • OkGoDoIt an hour ago

      Yeah, this does seem somewhat reasonable. I get that most users will probably accept it without thinking twice, but if you’re going to do something like this, this is at least a fairly upfront and consenting way of doing it. For the TV platforms where this isn’t allowed, you have to wonder if apps are still doing it but just completely secretly, and trying to hide their tracks as well.

      • LastTrain an hour ago

        I think the person you were responding to was being sarcastic.

        • stavros an hour ago

          I didn't read it that way. "Please allow us to use your IP to download data" is way more consenty than I thought these apps would get.

  • whalesalad a minute ago

    I have a few LG OLED tv's. I do not ever connect them to the internet - I just treat them as dumb hdmi/dp displays. One is driven by an Apple TV, the other is connected to a Linux gaming pc. Haven't had any issues at all.

  • HDBaseT 36 minutes ago

    "Publishes with the most proxy flagged apps"

    1. Desoline (based in Netanya (Israel)

    2. Bright Data (based in Israel)

    Interesting.

    • smashah 12 minutes ago

      Brightdata aka Luminati (they changed their name) the company that basically hacked unsuspecting chrome extension users to become residential proxies.

      From the country that claimed "we can see them from their TVs" when referring to the victims of their Holocaust of Gaza in which they spilt an ocean of babyblood.

      But apparently we are meant to be impressed by the modern Rudolph Hess Nation's advancements in civil and chemical engineering.

  • xnx 38 minutes ago

    What portion of Fox's acquisition thesis for Roku was activating residential proxies (distributed AI crawling!) across all the units?

    • kristianp 6 minutes ago

      Is bypassing scraping blocks the main purpose of these residential proxy networks?

      • duskwuff 3 minutes ago

        Yes. For instance, Bright Data describes itself, on its home page, as the "all in one platform for proxies and web scraping".

  • ctippett 35 minutes ago

    I absolutely adore my 2018 jailbroken LG OLED, although it pains me that everything I love about this TV are features the manufacturer actively discourages and wishes I never had access to.

  • TurdF3rguson an hour ago

    It's not Smart TV apps specifically, it's all free apps. They have to monetize those somehow, don't they? And you get upset when you see ads, don't you?

    Basically it's either this or pay for your apps.

    • drnick1 5 minutes ago

      > And you get upset when you see ads, don't you?

      Yes and no. I understand that Youtube needs to generate revenue, has staff to pay, etc. About a decade ago, I got an occasional 10 second commercial at the start of a clip, and I could live with that. But Youtube pushed me too far when it started playing two consecutive commercials at regular intervals that cannot be skipped, and I now use uBlock or VacuumTube on all my devices.

    • recursive an hour ago

      Not sure if this is ironic, but I know it's possible for apps to exist without being monetized. I'm using Paint.net right now.

    • zerobees an hour ago

      > Basically it's either this or pay for your apps.

      And then paid apps show you ads and monetize anyway.

    • bigfishrunning an hour ago

      I pay for apps whenever possible, in some cases it just isn't. Also, you have to trust that paid apps aren't also doing this shit.

  • 201984 2 hours ago

    This needs to be illegal.

    • gruez an hour ago

      Why? The only thing that's vaguely objectionable is the fact the consent screen's wording of "download public web data from the internet" omits important information on what's actually happening and the associated risks. Otherwise I'm not sure how you can come up with a principled justification of the ban beyond just "AI scrapers bad" or "hiding identity". Tor relays and VPNs are basically doing the same thing, except with clearer disclosure about what actually goes on.

      • tadfisher 28 minutes ago

        Does there need to be a principled justification beyond that? I used to be on the side of the traffic, as in, it does not matter where traffic originates as long as it's not abusive. But the fact is that too many scrapers exist which are, in fact, bad. Their behavior is bad, their programming is bad, and they result in way too high costs for free infrastructure, thus they are morally bad.

        I expect AT&T and Comcast to offer a residential proxy service any day now.

      • ff317 an hour ago

        From the content hosting side (getting reamed by scrapers overloading infrastructure), the problem is that we have to be able to set "reasonable" ratelimits to share finite network uplink and server cpu resources between all of our real users and these scrapers.

        When you can identify the nature of the traffic (quickly in realtime, based on simple deterministic rules), you can protect the resources: you can rate/concurrency -limit the AI scrapers in the name of saving resources for the real humans, effectively putting the scrapers in a lower priority band (which is how it generally worked for search engine scrapers before!).

        The problem is they're using resiproxies to disperse and whitewash their traffic, making it extremely difficult to tell their requests apart from the legitimate human requests. They're basically lying to us about the origin, and thus denying us the ability to put them in a lower priority band than humans.

        They may scrape us at, say, 25K reqs/second, but it's coming from 50K random residential eyeball IPs at an average rate of only 0.5 reqs/second/IP, and then they're intentionally lying with the UA and headers and other fingerprint details as best they can to "blend in" with the humans so that we can't differentiate.

        Let's do an analogy: Imagine if there was a neighborhood grocery store you and all your neighbors rely on for food. It's cheap because they keep their margins low, and more importantly the next store down the road is like 50 miles further away. That store 50 miles down the road also charges double the price. Now they've decided to play arbitrage: they load up 100 employees in the back of an air conditioned semi, clothe them to look like local shoppers, park it 3 blocks from your neighborhood store hidden inside a fenced property, and have them all go in and buy out all the inventory in the store over the course of a couple hours. The store just looks like it's having a great sales day at first. All these customers waiting in line, each getting just a few things at a time. But two hours later, the store shelves are empty, the semi is loaded up, and they're headed 50 miles back to double the price and sell it to someone else. You go in to buy some veggies to cook dinner and there's nothing to buy.

        We've been playing this game with AI scrapers and resiproxies for way too long, and someone needs to hold them accountable for their fraud.

        • gruez an hour ago

          All the arguments you made applies to VPNs or tor as well. I'm sure rightsholders would be very happy if VPNs are banned, because that gets rid of one avenue for pirating with impunity. Same goes with every ad network ever, which has to fight click fraud.

      • bigfishrunning an hour ago

        This is why I don't run a tor endpoint; possibly objectionable traffic I don't control sourced from my network. All it takes is one horrible request to come from your IP and you're on a list

        • thephyber 24 minutes ago

          Perhaps.

          But if these are popular apps / APIs, then the number of affected households is significant. Authorities / investigators will have to treat IPs as likely proxies and not the geolocation of the human initiating the request.

    • pocksuppet an hour ago

      What would be illegal about it?

      • 201984 a few seconds ago

        I cannot think of a legitimate purpose for residential proxies existing. They take advantage of people who don't understand what they're being asked to give "consent" to, and then offer up those people's internet connections to whatever actor wants to abuse it, including malware authors, aggressive scrapers, and anyone with ill intent.

        Why do you think this rampant abuse is a good thing? What benefit does this provide to society?

  • throwawa14223 25 minutes ago

    So is there a residential proxy blacklist I can run on my firewall? Any action I can take as an admin to put a stop to this?

  • lukax 2 hours ago

    Well, that's how data for training LLMs is scraped.

    • brikym an hour ago

      And price comparison sites big companies don't like since they want to price discriminate. There are positives to it.

  • dupontcyborg an hour ago

    this is a way smaller deal than acr. i personally don’t connect my smart tv to my network and use an apple tv instead

  • captn3m0 an hour ago

    Has anyone reversed their SDKs to run a swarm that captures enough traffic to see what requests are actually getting made?

    • pocksuppet an hour ago

      It'll be HTTPS but you might be able to know the website, if it proxies DNS or doesn't use ESNI.

  • ortusdux an hour ago

    Maybe Valve will make a TV next

    • wmf an hour ago

      Palmer Luckey said he might make a ModRetro TV.

  • cj 2 hours ago

    I imagine most smart TVs don't support multitasking or apps staying alive in the background, hopefully?

  • wmf an hour ago

    The concept of consent-based privacy has completely failed, first with GDPR then this.

  • doublerabbit an hour ago

    Walked past a TV and it was advertising a security guard.

    Why does a TV need security software?

    • wmf an hour ago

      Windows needs antivirus so why wouldn't a TV? Unfortunately there's a lot of placebo software out there.

    • dewey an hour ago

      Because most people (HN is not a representative sample set) are not willing to pay the real price of a TV if it wouldn't be subsidized by adtech.

      • pixelmelt 3 minutes ago

        Aren't consumer class dumb TVs gone?

      • HDBaseT 41 minutes ago

        I'm not sure the adtech is even enough to subsidize the price in a meaningful way.

        Google’s global ad revenue equates to roughly $61 per user per year, most TV manufacturers would be unable to extract that much out per user, even with crazy levels of tracking, ads, etc.

        I haven't used a modern TV in a very long time, but I can't imagine LG is extracting over $20 in ad revenue/data revenue per year. It might move the needle on <$500 displays, but when LG displays costing over $5,000 still have this spyware its hard to defend.

        • dewey 11 minutes ago

          What makes you think LG would not be hitting the Google numbers (Instagram ad-free is ~$6 / month for example, roughly the same ballpark)? A device that's connected to a high speed internet connection, often allowed to do background tasks and being able to track all data being consumed through it (Streaming services, gaming etc.) is extremely valuable.

          • microcode 9 minutes ago

            Indeed, many of these TVs serve ads by default on their screensavers and home screens.

      • acheron 36 minutes ago

        TVs were unsubsidized by ad tech up until 10 years ago, and I’m pretty sure most people bought TVs back then.

      • bigfishrunning an hour ago

        It's been a very long time since they were given an option.

  • knollimar 2 hours ago

    This feels straight out of Silicon Valley (show)

    • bigfishrunning an hour ago

      It also feels straight out of Silicon Valley (place)

  • pocksuppet an hour ago

    Good. Fuck Cloudflare and other internet gatekeepers. Confuse their signal as much as possible.

    • snowe2010 36 minutes ago

      Huh? This is almost assuredly being used for botnets… that’s not a good thing.

  • refulgentis 2 hours ago

    12 minute article.

    70% AI.

    The only content not flagged?

    Copy and pasted PR comments.

    Invisible Unicode characters, triads, unnecessary markdown.

    Good work, obviated by bloviating. Readers dropping off near-instantly.

    A company leaving a slop trail behind its wake.

    AI DDOSing should be shameful.

    https://www.folklore.org/Saving_Lives.html

    • jonhohle 2 hours ago

      It’s exhausting. It’s like every article is written by the same author and that author is also your coworker and personal assistant and also moonlights as Brian, a waiter at Chotchkie’s.

    • Retr0id an hour ago

      The page has scroll hijacking, too.

      • tantalor 18 minutes ago

        Here's a bookmarklet which fixes that:

          javascript:(function(){const e=['wheel','mousewheel','DOMMouseScroll','touchmove'];e.forEach(e=>{window.addEventListener(e,function(e){e.stopPropagation()},{capture:true,passive:true})});const t=e=>{if(!e)return;e.style.setProperty('overflow','auto','important');e.style.setProperty('overflow-y','auto','important');e.style.setProperty('overflow-x','visible','important');e.style.setProperty('scroll-behavior','auto','important');e.style.setProperty('position','static','important')};t(document.documentElement);t(document.body);const o=document.createElement('style');o.innerHTML='html, body { overflow: auto !important; overflow-y: auto !important; scroll-behavior: auto !important; position: static !important; height: auto !important; } ::-webkit-scrollbar { width: 12px !important; display: block !important; }';document.head.appendChild(o);})();
  • nekusar an hour ago

    LOL I posted a few days ago with bullshit from LG smart TVs.

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48618246

    I still do not know how the damned thing got internet.