SFs de facto stance (in practice due to the dynamic between law enforcement agencies) seems to be that generally an individual has right to relieve themselves even on a sidewalk (even pretextually) and being visible does not in itself arise to a crime like indecent exposure, without additional factors (such as the stereotypical “trench coat flashing” without pretext).
Thats the way SFPD worded it to me after repeatedly failing to act on my reports (such as a woman urinating in front of my child on a sidewalk near an sf muni bus stop). Nudity is legal. People have a right to bodily function. Another factor is response time, for this priority the response time can be over 12 hours (if they respond), and obviously they’re not gonna skip trace someone for urinating on a sidewalk after they left the scene.
Most event organizers like bay to breakers race or outside lands provide facilities to mitigate burdens on the community. The city provides its own portable facilities in hotspots. Tesla could easily do it, but is notorious for ignoring regulations or just doesn’t care.
> Thats the way SFPD worded it to me after repeatedly failing to act on my reports (such as a woman urinating in front of my child on a sidewalk near an sf muni bus stop). Nudity is legal.
Section 154 generally made nudity on public sidewalks or at bus stops illegal since 2012. Either your story is old or the cops are misinformed.
I'm honestly amazed there isn't a toilet there? Like, there's toilets at gas stations, why wouldn't they (by default) put toilets in a supercharger lot?
That's pretty cheap! I mean, does Tesla expect people to use the toilet at a gas station when they're not even buying gas?
It’s really not that cheap at all in major city cores.
Gas stations around me do not generally have a public restroom due to the sheer amount of abuse they are subject to. The very few that do are the “get a key from the attendant after purchase” variety and you’d only use those in a very very dire emergency. You also have to know to ask and likely be known by the attendant since they all have “no public restroom” signs.
It’s a tragedy of the commons sort of situation. Any business that provides it requires 24x7 on-site personnel willing to get into fights with the homeless, drug addicts, and mentally unwell folks. On top of the normal abuse the general public puts on such facilities. The police will be unlikely to respond to such trespassing calls in a timely manner.
An unmanned charging station would be an epic shitshow in a major city if it had public restrooms. You would be talking multiple six figures a year to maintain such a thing. It’s not a “send a cleaning crew once a day” sort of enterprise.
Hell, even with only ride share and delivery driver demographics it would be untenable. My alley is near a major commercial corridor but not crazy busy - with literally hundreds of trash cans lining both sides of it. Every weekend I’m picking up a couple bags worth of trash tossed out of the windows of DoorDash drivers, and every single night I have multiple drivers on my security cameras taking a piss behind my garage. The latter I understand and I “get it” - but the former is inexcusable since it would take literally 15 seconds to get out of your car to toss the McDonald’s bag into a can if you were assed enough to do so. Heck if it’s too cold out you could simply reach out your window and make it happen if you were so inclined.
> You would be talking multiple six figures a year to maintain such a thing.
A trillion dollar company can afford it, as can the profits from a supercharger station. Plus, you can limit it to people who are paying to charge their cars (or their passengers).
If they lived in fantasy land with reasonable permitting and running a toilet ment paying for toilet paper, soap, and a janitor to clean it once a day I'm sure they would for the PR win and to sell a few extra Teslas.
In San Francisco as discussed in the article this would be an expensive permitting hassle, endless money sink, target for abuse, bad PR from people complaining about unsafe and unclean toilets, and a legal risk if any incidents happen.
Doing it well (so the toilets are clean and safe) obviously costs money. And obviously Tesla would prefer not to pay money. I don't think that's the issue you think it is. Tons of pollution mitigation efforts cost money that companies don't want to pay and yet work because of laws requiring them.
My city tried to force a public toilets ordinance on local businesses. Those businesses either ignored it or converted to take out only or other business models where they were not bound by the law.
It got rolled back pretty quick.
Plenty of businesses will simply call your bluff for such silliness. They do not exist to solve social issues local government created in the first place.
If local governments can’t even afford to keep public restrooms going at parks, public transit stations, etc. it’s not reasonable to expect businesses to shoulder that cost for them.
Keeping them clean is the easy part. Doing it well would require building the infrastructure, maintenance, manning the station, preventing drug abuse etc, and getting into liabilities due to said abuse.
Tons of businesses stop doing business if they are forced into efforts that dont make money. The city/state should own sanitation. Not private companies.
Gas stations with toilets are absolutely not normal and standard in these sorts of areas. Including where I live.
Yes, they are normal in most places - but there are areas public restrooms effectively do not exist due to the amount of abuse they take and the zero political or societal interest in fixing those issues or helping local businesses out with appropriate law enforcement or whatnot.
NIMBY probably don't want a 24/7 tesla charging station right next to their homes. It's like living at a gas station, but people fill up for 1hour+ at a time. Seems like a zoning failure and should never have been approved.
SFs de facto stance (in practice due to the dynamic between law enforcement agencies) seems to be that generally an individual has right to relieve themselves even on a sidewalk (even pretextually) and being visible does not in itself arise to a crime like indecent exposure, without additional factors (such as the stereotypical “trench coat flashing” without pretext).
Thats the way SFPD worded it to me after repeatedly failing to act on my reports (such as a woman urinating in front of my child on a sidewalk near an sf muni bus stop). Nudity is legal. People have a right to bodily function. Another factor is response time, for this priority the response time can be over 12 hours (if they respond), and obviously they’re not gonna skip trace someone for urinating on a sidewalk after they left the scene.
Most event organizers like bay to breakers race or outside lands provide facilities to mitigate burdens on the community. The city provides its own portable facilities in hotspots. Tesla could easily do it, but is notorious for ignoring regulations or just doesn’t care.
> Thats the way SFPD worded it to me after repeatedly failing to act on my reports (such as a woman urinating in front of my child on a sidewalk near an sf muni bus stop). Nudity is legal.
Section 154 generally made nudity on public sidewalks or at bus stops illegal since 2012. Either your story is old or the cops are misinformed.
and this is somehow notable for san francisco?
The urine thing is startling. I'm not much of a car person, much less an electric Tesla person. Is urine a large part of the Tesla sub-culture?
Presumably simply following Dear Leader's lead: https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/elon-mus...
Rideshare drivers
It's also hard to park and find public bathrooms in San Francisco.
It's generally hard to find bathrooms or trash cans at any tesla supercharger. They're not part of the design.
You either have to find an amicable business nearby or you're out of luck.
Right, gas stations are quicker stops and mostly they have a public restroom too. But probably not in a central part of SF.
I'm honestly amazed there isn't a toilet there? Like, there's toilets at gas stations, why wouldn't they (by default) put toilets in a supercharger lot?
That's pretty cheap! I mean, does Tesla expect people to use the toilet at a gas station when they're not even buying gas?
It’s really not that cheap at all in major city cores.
Gas stations around me do not generally have a public restroom due to the sheer amount of abuse they are subject to. The very few that do are the “get a key from the attendant after purchase” variety and you’d only use those in a very very dire emergency. You also have to know to ask and likely be known by the attendant since they all have “no public restroom” signs.
It’s a tragedy of the commons sort of situation. Any business that provides it requires 24x7 on-site personnel willing to get into fights with the homeless, drug addicts, and mentally unwell folks. On top of the normal abuse the general public puts on such facilities. The police will be unlikely to respond to such trespassing calls in a timely manner.
An unmanned charging station would be an epic shitshow in a major city if it had public restrooms. You would be talking multiple six figures a year to maintain such a thing. It’s not a “send a cleaning crew once a day” sort of enterprise.
Hell, even with only ride share and delivery driver demographics it would be untenable. My alley is near a major commercial corridor but not crazy busy - with literally hundreds of trash cans lining both sides of it. Every weekend I’m picking up a couple bags worth of trash tossed out of the windows of DoorDash drivers, and every single night I have multiple drivers on my security cameras taking a piss behind my garage. The latter I understand and I “get it” - but the former is inexcusable since it would take literally 15 seconds to get out of your car to toss the McDonald’s bag into a can if you were assed enough to do so. Heck if it’s too cold out you could simply reach out your window and make it happen if you were so inclined.
> You would be talking multiple six figures a year to maintain such a thing.
A trillion dollar company can afford it, as can the profits from a supercharger station. Plus, you can limit it to people who are paying to charge their cars (or their passengers).
I mean why would they.
If they lived in fantasy land with reasonable permitting and running a toilet ment paying for toilet paper, soap, and a janitor to clean it once a day I'm sure they would for the PR win and to sell a few extra Teslas.
In San Francisco as discussed in the article this would be an expensive permitting hassle, endless money sink, target for abuse, bad PR from people complaining about unsafe and unclean toilets, and a legal risk if any incidents happen.
Doing it well (so the toilets are clean and safe) obviously costs money. And obviously Tesla would prefer not to pay money. I don't think that's the issue you think it is. Tons of pollution mitigation efforts cost money that companies don't want to pay and yet work because of laws requiring them.
My city tried to force a public toilets ordinance on local businesses. Those businesses either ignored it or converted to take out only or other business models where they were not bound by the law.
It got rolled back pretty quick.
Plenty of businesses will simply call your bluff for such silliness. They do not exist to solve social issues local government created in the first place.
If local governments can’t even afford to keep public restrooms going at parks, public transit stations, etc. it’s not reasonable to expect businesses to shoulder that cost for them.
Tesla Superchargers aren't going to be able to convert to take out only or other business models
Such businesses will close shop.
Tesla superchargers make enough that they can cover the cost of bathrooms and still be profitable.
Keeping them clean is the easy part. Doing it well would require building the infrastructure, maintenance, manning the station, preventing drug abuse etc, and getting into liabilities due to said abuse.
Tons of businesses stop doing business if they are forced into efforts that dont make money. The city/state should own sanitation. Not private companies.
The first time as a child going to the big city the toilets had blue lights! This was in the late 1980s.
That memory has always stuck with me.
Foreigners often complain that public toilets in the Netherlands cost money to use. Apparently in other places people enjoy cleaning toilets for free?
Meanwhile, gas stations with toilettes are completely normal and standard.
If you have a business that involves people staying fir long, you have to have wc. They will need to piss and shit, that is given.
Gas stations with toilets are absolutely not normal and standard in these sorts of areas. Including where I live.
Yes, they are normal in most places - but there are areas public restrooms effectively do not exist due to the amount of abuse they take and the zero political or societal interest in fixing those issues or helping local businesses out with appropriate law enforcement or whatnot.
It was pretty rough for me driving through downtown Atlanta - nowhere seemed to have public restrooms.
Around my home every business will have a public restroom, or a not-so-public restroom that's still available if you ask.
Costs money to operate.
And anything remotely close to a public toilet in SF is doomed to disaster.
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What does that have to do with NIMBY?
NIMBY probably don't want a 24/7 tesla charging station right next to their homes. It's like living at a gas station, but people fill up for 1hour+ at a time. Seems like a zoning failure and should never have been approved.
Also, gas stations have bathrooms.
Read the article, it's basically just homeowners near by complaining and city councilors responding to that by demanding Tesla fix it.
Sounds like they were right to not want it in their back yard? I wouldn't want that shit near my house, I need to sleep at night.
Sounds to me like a lack of public bathrooms.
I once saw a grown man pull his pants down and take a shit right on the sidewalk on market street. San Francisco just be like that.
So it's cleaner than the sidewalks?
Considering another comment talks about someone taking a dump on the sidewalk; maybe.