> The default rate among U.S. corporate borrowers of private credit rose to a record 9.2% in 2025
Emphasis added. Headline makes it sound like retail credit, not corporate specifically.
*Edit: Not misleading, just an unfamiliar term/usage from my perspective. I'm not a finance guy so didn't know the difference and assumed others wouldn't either. Mea culpa.
TBH "private credit" (meaning exactly what this article is talking about) is such a big thing in the finance industry that probably most finance industry people can't even fathom that the title is misleading to non-finance-industry people.
I'm not saying they are right. But it's like if you posted an article called "Python Is Eating the World" on a non-tech side and people got mad because they thought the article was about a wildlife emergency. Fair for them to be confused, but maybe not fair to accuse the title of being misleading (at least not intentionally).
Ha, yes I didn't even consider it meant anything other than corporate private credit. Otherwise we'd be talking about presumably mortgages or "consumer debt". Right?
It's some sort of Gell-Mann-Amnesia-like effect. I am accustomed to seeing thoughtful, informed discussion about technical topics on HN, so then it's jarring when something like this hits the front page and nobody seems to have any idea what they're talking about.
It's opposite Gell-Mann-Amnesia: I am a SWE and I come here because I find it one of the best places to keep abreast of the broader software world, not just the little corner of it that I'm currently working in. So in the things that I know well, I trust it. My wife is a medical professional, and so I know just enough to see that most medical conversations here are complete and utter nonsense.
So the mental model I have of the average HN contributor is basically that they are all SWE's- they know software engineering extremely well, and the farther you get from that the less valuable the conversation will be, and the more likely it will be someone trying to reason from first principles for 30 seconds about something that intelligent hard working people devote their careers to.
I’m coming at this loaded with jargon, so excuse my blind spot, but why would the term private credit bring to mind anything to do with retail specifically?
(The term private credit in American—and, I believe, European—finance refers to “debt financing provided by non-bank lenders directly to companies or projects through privately negotiated agreements” [1].)
>, by why would the term private credit bring to mind anything to do with retail specifically?
If a layman is unfamiliar that "private credit" is about business debts, and therefore only has intuition via previous exposure to "private X" to guess what it might mean, it's not unreasonable to assume it's about consumer loans.
"private insurance" can be about retail consumer purchased health insurance outside of employer-sponsored group health plans
"private banking" is retail banking (for UHNW individuals)
But "private credit" ... doesn't fit the pattern above because "private" is an overloaded word.
It surprises me that most people would read "private credit" to mean "retail credit" by default, but I also come to this loaded with jargon so I guess would defer to others on this. But to be clear, the title is not misleading to anyone who has any familiarity with the financial markets.
With the caveats that banks can originate private credit as long as it is separate from their reserve system credit (and consequently does not increase the money supply when originated)
I think you’re mistaken. We’ve been in a private credit bubble for a couple years at least, it’s in the finance/economic news every week and I’ve even started to hear regular NPR doing primers on it for normies. The term for “retail credit” is consumer debt or consumer debt. We don’t call it retail debt because the retailer is not actually a counterparty.
Out of curiosity where do you primarily get your news?
I think (but I don't move in such circles) that originally there was "redpilled" to refer to people playing "The Game" (pickup artists). Original reference is to The Matrix, of course.
That's exactly where my mind went as soon as I read the title. HN rules say to "use the original title, unless it is misleading". I think the original title meets the misleading bar but I can't speak for other readers.
"Private credit" is a finance term of art. It could be misleading if you don't have context for the correct definition, but that's true of many posts on this site.
Reason this number caught my eye: last year the Fed's stress tests found "loss rates from [non-bank financial institution] exposures (i.e., the percentage of loans that are uncollectible) were estimated at 7%, under a severe recession in scenario one" [1].
That's the scenario in which unemployment goes to 10%, home prices crash by 33%, the stock market halves and Treasuries trade at zero percent yield [2].
The categorization the Fed uses for NBFI is broader than private credit. E.g. if a hedge fund gives a loan to a private company, that's not private credit because hedge funds seem to have their own category. And lending backed by securities is also in a different category, it seems.
So I guess the Fed expects these other kinds of lending to be safer than private credit?
What's odd is according to the article, this index estimated an ~8% default rate in 2024. So maybe the stress test was measuring something different? It's weird to think the stress test would find a lower loss rate during a severe recession than in the most recent year with data available.
The regulators were modeling a scenario where private credit was dragged down by a problem elsewhere in the economy, not one where the rest of the economy was dragged down by private credit. Everyone understands that center of a financial implosion is always worse than its effects on the broader economy, but regulators aren't tasked with stopping the explosion at ground zero, they are tasked with stopping contagion dominoes from falling, so that's what they model.
> maybe the stress test was measuring something different?
The Fed is measuring the loss on bank loans to the private-credit lenders. A 10% portfolio loss shouldn't result in those lenders defaulting to their banks.
By my rough estimate, one can halve the portfolio loss rate to get the NBFI-to-bank loss rate. So a 10% portfolio loss means we're around a 5% expected long-run loss to the banks. Which is still weirdly high, so I feel like I must be missing something...
Luckily debt will be solved by the power of AGI, right? Just one more data centre! One more GPU! It can nearly write a basic three tier application with only 10 critical security vulnerabilities all by itself!
Definitely think we’re in for a rough year financial prospects wise, and doesn’t even feel like we recovered from the 2008 crash properly.
Hundreds of financial institutions with greater or lesser responsibility for the crash in 2008 went under in those years[0]. The shareholders in almost all of these companies lost all of their money and the responsible employees lost their jobs. This includes some of the most guilty companies, like Washington Mutual, Countrywide Financial, IndyMac, Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch (through First Franklin Financial), Bear Stearns. But all these companies are completely forgotten now.
Instead everyone hates on Goldman Sachs. Sure, Goldman Sachs deserves hate, but of the big banks they were the _least_ guilty of the crash in 2008. Not saying they were saints, but in 2008 they were the least bad.
When you have people at the top of those institutions who made those decisions, and made enough money during their tenures to weather any length of unemployment and were sometimes even given a severance worth more money than the average American makes in a lifetime, going out of business or losing a job simply isn't enough.
It's one of the only investments of labor and time where the risk is not proportional to the return.
In order to create risk, you have to either claw back their money through civil action - which you can't because the entire point of incorporation is to separate the business entity from one's personal finances - or look at criminal charges. Otherwise, you have created a class of hyper-wealthy people who have no real incentive to perform in a way that is for the best interests of shareholders or society at large.
It's the reason we tie so much for regular people to employment in the US, like healthcare. Many argue that if you give the rank-and-file worker the kind of long-term financial security that just one or two years of being a C-suite executive at a major company, they won't work as hard. They won't make the best decisions. They won't be the dynamic workers our economy supposedly wants. That logic goes right out the window when a board goes hunting for a new CEO.
>The shareholders in almost all of these companies lost all of their money
How is that penalizing those responsible?
Isn't it a pretty big leap to go from penalizing those selling packaged fraudulent loans to the public (whom, to my knowledge were never prosecuted) to the shareholders losing money as protection against it happening again?
That's because debt IS money. Literally. If you create debt, you have created wealth. These people weren't punished so they could get back to creating new debt as quickly as possible.
The problem with credit defaults, especially private credit defaults, isn't that some private creditors lose some money, it's that twice that amount of money is destroyed, and disappears from the economy entirely.
Consequences would be nice, but actually forbidding it for the future would be enough. Obama promised to do it, but didn't, and everybody kind of forgot and moved on.
We sure did when Frank-Dodd was written by the legislative and then signed into law by the executive.
GP's comment is about the aftermath of 2008, entirely missing the fact that the legislative did in fact create laws which were signed by the executive and then later, in 2018, dismantled under a different administration.
In fact we rewarded them. We bailed them out by printing a lot of money. We then printed more money during the pandemic to pay people to stay home and watch Netflix. Probably a lot more examples. All that money flowing around that has no basis in actual productivity or value created. It's got to correct at some point. One of the corrections is how much more everything costs now, but I don't think that has fully absorbed the excess.
Exact opposite. We are in the midst of the COVID hangover.
So that govt money went to the wealthy to buy up houses (Californians bought real estate in the Midwest as investments and it drove up housing prices along with small immigration to these states)
Farmers etc benefited from bailouts when they were doing very well. It was a large blunder.
All that money directly led to housing inflation that still hasn't settled. The PPP loans were all forgiven (which massively favored business owners and upper class).
Meanwhile student loan forgiveness was overruled by the supreme court.
It's really hard to ignore the implication that it ended up being more like a wealth transfer than anything else.
It was inflationary but would spread out the pain over the recovery period after the crisis, the other option was to allow 100% of the pain to be felt immediately: economy shutting down, people losing their jobs, diminished household spending, less money circulating in the economy, businesses still running having fewer orders/customers, more people being laid off, all the way until the crisis passed.
Between the latter and the former I believe the former was a much smarter choice in the medium to long term.
We did. We created about $4 trillion. That just about neutralized the $4 trillion that evaporated in the crash, and the result was that we did not go through a deflationary collapse. You know that they did not create too much, because inflation was basically nothing for the next decade. It was flat until Covid.
I think it was a good call, yes. A deflationary collapse is incredibly damaging to the economy. The Great Depression was such a collapse, but there are others. The Panic of 1857, 1873, 1907... there's a long history of these.
The Fed avoided that. And they also avoided causing inflation. It was an amazing job of threading the needle. (One could argue that they caused a decade of stagnation, but in my view that was minor compared to the other options.)
Thank you for the thoughts. Do you think if we had ripped the band-aid off then it would have been completely disastrous? I don't mind saying that this economy is frustrating, and it feels like we keep kicking the can down the road. I'm confident I'm not the only person that feels this way, and I'm quite open to being wrong here. My guts says there's just too much money sloshing around, and it gets vacuumed up, leaving the majority feeling like nothing changed.
I'm asking this in as non-confrontational way as possible, what am I missing?
I think you may be missing that $4 trillion evaporated in 2008, and the scale of the catastrophe that would have caused if the Fed did nothing. What the Fed did then was, essentially, restore the amount of money to what it was in 2007. They were trying to turn 2008 into as much of a "nothing changed" as they could, and they did it quite well.
I think the economy can adjust to any amount of money; it's the abrupt change in the amount that causes problems (because it causes an abrupt change in the value of money).
I think you may be missing that I'm not saying the same thing about the pandemic response. I think that too much money got poured in during the pandemic years, and that has caused inflation, and we've been seeing that inflation since. I wonder if you are taking how you feel about the last five or six years, and mapping that onto the last 18 years.
Now, from 2008 to 2020 was not all roses. Things were kind of stagnant. The rich were probably doing better than you were, because assets like stocks and land went up in value as interest rates went down, but your wages didn't go up. So, it was reasonable for you to feel "there's too much money sloshing around" in things like stocks during those years.
But I think it got worse after Covid. The government air-dropped too much money in, and there has definitely been too much money sloshing around since then.
In all of this, I'm not really saying that you're wrong in feeling that there's too much money sloshing around, or that the economy is frustrating.
I mean people have been saying a crash is coming for years... Consumers recklessly purchased homes and cars at double their value, while relocating for remote work that was never long term in the eyes of their employer. Sounds like a receipt for disaster or a repeat of 2008- however, so much has changed since 2008... whatever happens, Black Swan! Hope "you" have your ducks in a row... As for AGI, lol. A box of matmuls isnt going to solve any real problems, so far, as you point out- is can barely write software. LLMs are basically gifted children. Smart sounding, lacking wisdom, chaotic, and likely just going to end up not that impressive. Either way- before we ever see AGI, we better get our heads out of the holes of the wealthy and enact UBI...
> I mean people have been saying a crash is coming for years
The internet working didn't make the Dotcom bubble not happen. Investors don't know anything about the new investment space and most of them are going to get hosed eventually. It's going to happen, and it'll be bad for people who are betting on it not happening.
> A box of matmuls isnt going to solve any real problems, so far, as you point out- is can barely write software
Trouble has been brewing in private credit for quite a while, but lenders and investors have been reluctant to write anything down, resorting to all kinds of "extend and pretend" games to avoid write-downs.
"Most of the private credit loans were floating rate and tied to the federal funds rate, which has persisted at a high level over the past three years. Fitch pointed to this as a catalyst for last year's defaults."
I wanted to dismiss that and say ... but it's not really historically high. I suppose it really is not IF you look WAY back. It actually has persisted at a relatively high level if you look back to 2009, which is more than a short time now.
I guess it is fair to say the federal funds rate has persisted at a high level over the past three years now isn't it?
Also interesting to note, "Fitch recorded NO defaults in the software sector last year. The rating agency noted it categorizes software issuers into their main target market sectors when applicable."
The problem of the current situation is that even 5% is considered as a high interest for many people, if not most of them. Inflation already pushes up the base price, and if the interest rate keeps on 5% and above many people simply won't consume, which will further pull down the economy.
For example, we decided to keep our vehicle for another 4-5 years instead of buying a new one. The same Hyundai vehicle of the same model, but different year (2026 v.s. 2020), has gone up 8,000 CAD (10K CAD considering tax), with a much higher rate (5.99% v.s. 0%). There is no way I'm buying another car in the foreseeable future. We can definitely afford it, but we won't.
The whole world has pushed up prices of food, housing and pretty much everything higher. This is the real problem -- although I wouldn't say it is the root problem.
i dont think the inflationary seventies and eighties are great lodestar
low interest rates are historically a sign of a stable polity and economy. so if anything, we want the conditions for prolonged low interest rates, rather than prolonged high interest rate.
I've never heard the term private credit so I googled it.
> Private credit refers to loans provided to businesses by non-bank institutions—such as private equity firms, hedge funds, and alternative asset managers—rather than traditional banks
.
Is that correct?
So if these companies go under does anyone care? If they go under are they a systemic risk to the economy like the banks in 2008 that got a taxpayer bailout?
> At the Financial Times, Jill Shah and Eric Platt report:
>JPMorgan Chase ... informed private credit lenders that it had marked down the value of certain loans in their portfolios, which serve as the collateral the funds use to borrow from the bank, according to people familiar with the matter. >...
>The loans that have been devalued are to software companies, which are seen as particularly vulnerable to the onset of AI. ...
From what i can tell the problem isn't that an individual who had cash to invest in a private (tech in this case) company goes down
the problem is that a company "private credit firms run retail-focused funds (“business development companies” or BDCs)" which took out a bunch of loans to invest in private tech companies is now having the underlying assets that they got those loans against (long term investments in private tech companies) valued lower.
the link im missing is what happens when people who also invested in BDCs want their money back, where their actual money is locked up in long term investments made to private tech companies, and their ability to get loans is now valued lower. I think this is called a "run" where if someone starts pulling money out, and ultimately you cant, then its a race to get your money out before others do, which applies to both the individuals and the institutional loans.
Note: my quotes are from the bloomberg newsletter i mention, which helped me, not the OP article. And i am writing as much to clarify my own thinking as from a place of understanding. I welcome clarification.
It is a systemic risk because its size and credit risk is opaque, like mortgage-backed securities were in 2008.
Banks needs to disclose the % of non-performing home, auto, business loans to rating agencies and regulatory bodies so their credit risk is known, and so regulators they can set rules on how loose or tight lending criteria should be in the industry. With 'financial innovation' like tranched mortgage bonds rolling up thousands of mortgages at various levels of credit risk into one, they can be traded without anyone actually knowing what the default risk is.
With private credit, there is no disclosure requirement because the lenders are not banks. PC is financing the entire AI datacenter boom, without which GDP growth in the US is effectively zero. If PC defaults rise, the bottom could rapidly fall out of the S&P 500, which is already being hit by the oil price crisis, and affect people's 401Ks and retirement savings.
> So if these companies go under does anyone care? If they go under are they a systemic risk to the economy like the banks in 2008 that got a taxpayer bailout?
Mostly, no, which is exactly why private credit has become so big in recent years: they are making the loans the banks can't or don't want to make, because the banks are subject to a bunch of additional regulations, which are designed to reduce the probability of banks going bust and having to be bailed out.
But it can be difficult to judge second order effects in finance. It's possible that a lot of private credit houses going bust would indirectly and perhaps unexpectedly hurt the broader economy. An obvious one being companies that are reliant on private credit going bust because their financing needs can no longer be met.
Also, with this administration in the US I wouldn't entirely rule out bailouts for some of the more politically connected private lenders.
> But it can be difficult to judge second order effects in finance.
Another obvious question to ask is who is providing the money that is being lent? Those are the people who now won't be paid back. The assumption is that these are people with predictable, long-term obligations who can lock up their cash for a long time: pensions, insurance companies, endowments, etc. Hopefully they are allocating a responsible amount of their portfolio to something as risky as private credit, but as the details are private, it can be really hard to know.
There has also been a big push over the past year to put private credit assets into retail 401k's (which, in theory, also should be okay with locking up funds for a long time, but in practice, maybe less so), most insidiously by having private credit assets held in target date funds (which are the default funds for many plans).
Many private credit funds also increase their leverage by borrowing from actual banks.
All of that should pose less systemic risk than if banks subject to bank runs were lending all of the money. But that has to be balanced by the fact that these are unregulated entities taking more risks than banks would. Long-term average default rates on high-yield bonds are around 4%, so 9.2% is high, but not in panic-inducing territory yet. Who knows what they will look like in the event of an actual recession.
> So if these companies go under does anyone care?
This is nowhere near as bad as the 2008 crisis, no. The banks don't really use the checking/savings account money for this. If you've invested in something that either invests in Private Credit or is reliant on Private Credit, then it'll suck for you personally.
...
One teeny tiny extremely important detail: Private Credit is bankrolling the AI industry's datacenter construction. If anything happens to significantly increase interest rates, several datacenter companies and Oracle go bankrupt. The other big tech firms have taken on lots of debt as well so expect spending cuts there too, even if they survive.
The systemic risk isn't in "bankers fucked it up again", it's in the AI bubble.
I'm not surprised. Weren't we getting signals like 3 or 4 months ago that used car repossessions were ticking up? That's a breaking point for folks. The economic boulder keeps rolling and I'm not wearing any shoes. Spiking the price of oil is definitely going to help. This too shall pass?
Since a lot of people here aren't familiar with the private credit situation, here's my understanding, which comes almost entirely from reading Money Stuff, a daily column by Matt Levine. If you are a tech person who wants to learn about finance, I recommend it! It's a lot more entertaining than most finance industry reporting.
"Private credit" is an idea that has been hot in finance for the last several years, originating from the great financial crisis (GFC). After the GFC, regulations made it very hard for banks to make business loans with any kind of risk anymore. So instead, new non-bank institutions stepped in to make loans to businesses. These "private credit" institutions raise money from investors, and lend it to businesses.
The investors are usually institutions who are OK with locking up their money long-term, like insurance companies and pension funds. This all seems a lot safer than having banks making loans: banks get their funding from depositors, who are allowed to withdraw their deposit any time they want. So a bank really needs to hold liquid assets so they are prepared for a run on the bank, and corporate borrowing is not very liquid. Insurance companies and pension funds have much more predictability as to when they actually will need their money back, so can safely put it in private credit with long horizons.
It's not quite so clean, though.
It's actually common for banks to lend money directly to private credit lenders, who then lend it out to companies. But when this happens, typically the bank is only lending a fraction of the total and arranges that they get paid back first, so it's significantly less risky than if they were loaning directly to the companies. Of course, the non-bank investors get higher returns on their riskier investment.
And the returns have been pretty good. Or were. With the banks suddenly retreating from this space, there was a lot of money to be made filling the gap, and so private credit got a reputation for paying back really good returns while being more predictable than the stock market.
But this meant it got hot. Really hot.
It got so hot that there were more people wanting to lend money than there were qualified borrowers. When that happens, naturally standards start to degrade.
And then interest rates went up, after having been near-zero for a very long time.
And now a lot of borrowers are struggling to pay back their loans on time. And the lenders need to pay back investors, so sometimes they are compromising by getting new investors to pay back the old ones, and stuff. It's getting precarious.
Meanwhile a lot of private credit institutions are hoping to start accepting retail investors. Not because retail investors have a lot of money and are gullible, no no no. 401(k) plans are by definition locked up for many years, so obviously should be perfect for making private credit investments! Also those 401(k)s today are all being dumped into index funds which have almost zero fees, whereas private credit funds have high fees. Wait, that's not the reason though!
But just as they are getting to the point of finding ways to accept retail investors, it's looking like the returns might not be so great anymore. Could be a crisis brewing. Even if the banks are pretty safe, it's not great if pensions and insurance companies lose a lot of money...
^ Encase the link also responds with this for you:
Access Denied
You don't have permission to access "http://www.marketscreener.com/news/us-private-credit-defaults-hit-record-9-2-in-2025-fitch-says-ce7e5fd8df8fff2d" on this server.
Private credit is cracking and lending standards are tightening behind the scenes. If you’re not building cash reserves right now you’re going to wish you had. The distressed opportunities ahead go to whoever kept dry powder while everyone else was chasing growth.
If your business is light on free cash flow (ie everyone in AI at the moment) buckle up as there are storm clouds ahead. If you’re running a business that relies on external cash (VCs, loans/bonds, etc) to keep things going things will get very ugly.
This is not my field of expertise, but I modeled keeping cash reserves to buy distressed assets. Unless I was able to perfectly predict the crash, the outcome was still better to not time the market.
Well it only took 5 years of destroying responsible savers with every policy imaginable to make sure they get crushed by those who availed themselves of the negative real rate loan inflation machine. How many people are left remaining that were dumb enough to take that strategy and are still standing? If you were operating on a cash basis for the last 5 years you were mostly wiped out by people leveraged to the 9s on debts and meanwhile your buying power was erased.
Interest rates on things like CDs and low-risk bonds have been decent for a while now. It’s not been painful to sit on cash reserves provided you were smart about where the cash was parked.
It’s not an either/or, it’s just a question of who was participating in the boom while preparing for storms ahead vs those all in on the boom.
What implodes in the period ahead are things that are massively over leveraged and can’t absorb a hit without doubling down again with more funding/loans and such. These are the folks and companies that get wiped out.
Interest rates on things like CDs and low-risk bonds have been decent for a while now. It’s not been painful to sit on cash reserves provided you were smart about where the cash was parked.
Just make sure you can unpark it, else you're SVB.
In actuality, the CPI is lower than inflation because technological advancement, automation, and economies of scale (due to globalization etc) are driving consumer prices low. In other words, if factories are still producing things like they were 20 years ago, the CPI would have been much higher, and that higher number is closer to what should have been the inflation number.
A better measure is what % of the total money supply you have.
I.e. you started out with 2e-20 % of the total money, and after 5 years you now have 1e-20 % of the total money, then whatever happened to CPI, you've been diluted and you would probably have been better off investing in something else other than cash.
That makes sense in theory, but in reality what "total money supply" is is a complete can of worms and basically impossible to measure
> if factories are still producing things like they were 20 years ago, the CPI would have been much higher, and that higher number is closer to what should have been the inflation number
This is an impossible counterfactual to test. In reality, tracking value across time requires adjusting for immeasurable preferences. This is why inflation is really only a useful measure for personal purposes across periods of years. It’s only macro economically interesting across a generation and close to meaningless longer than a human lifespan.
I think it's so obvious that no testing is needed, but generally I don't disagree with your take.
The thing is one really needs to understand what "real yields" mean when investing in bonds, i.e. it means your purchasing power with respect to cheap commodities tracked by the CPI is preserved, but it doesn't necessarily mean "value" (whatever that means in the abstract) is retained.
> it means your purchasing power with respect to cheap commodities tracked by the CPI is preserved
CPI isn't a measure of commodities. And "CPI" is a bit of shorthand, given there are pretty much as many measures of consumer and producer prices as there are economists.
> it doesn't necessarily mean "value" (whatever that means in the abstract) is retained
This is what any measure of inflation ultimately seeks to measure. Purchasing power is intrinsically tied to the basket of goods and services its measuring. That basket varies across people and time as preferences vary.
You're not wrong it's always good to have cash but certain allocations could have done 50%-100% return on investment while a CD brought ~5.5% for a while. Look at S&P since 2021. Knowing when to transition from cash, liquidity, other instruments is what kills/allows people to survive. We can't all do the same thing, it's almost as if it's economic ecological evolution, random death.
Decent is fine if you're about to retire and want to avoid risk but I wouldn't recommend parking your wealth in CDs/bonds if your retirement is still 15+ years out, personally. The government has to print money to bail itself out which means things are going to inflate quite a bit, just look at what gold has done in anticipation of this.
Banks bailed out the hedge funds in '98, then the taxpayer bailed out the banks in '08, then the government bailed out the taxpayer in '20... now monetary policy from the fed has to prevent the government from defaulting.
> If you’re running a business that relies on external cash (VCs, loans/bonds, etc) to keep things going things will get very ugly.
Honestly thrilled to hear it. The AI bubble needs to burst so we can find out what's actually useful, start requiring real business models again, and get rid of all the noise and waste.
The problem is all these over-leveraged sectors will drag everybody else. And guess who will be bailed out? Heads they win, tails everybody but them loses.
> The problem is all these over-leveraged sectors will drag everybody else
Well, the good news is that's what good public policy is for, to blunt the impact of the damage with strong anti-trust enforcement and careful cash injections to weak-but-critical areas of the economy to help stabilize in rough times.
Now, hang on for just one moment while I crawl out from under this rock and take a look at who we have entrusted to set our public policy.
The problem is, what assets remain of a company that doesn't own anything material? OpenAI, Anthropic - they don't own datacenters that could be auctioned off. All they own is training data and trained weights, and both are relatively worthless.
The game that all the AI companies are playing is to be the last dog standing at all costs, because that kind of dominance is a money printer.
People have cried wolf or been wrong about incoming crashes and bubble pops so many times that this signal -- whether it's a good signal or not -- simply won't change anything I do.
I'm sure someone somewhere could make a trade off of this article and this signal is definitely for them.
It is incredibly hard to make money going short. Even if you are right about the direction, most short positions require interest payments to hold, or have some sort of decay built into the structure. So timing is everything and even then, if the underlying security slowly grinds down (instead of a quick abrupt move) you could still lose if the interest/decay on the short position outruns the downward movement on the underlying.
I have been actively trading in the market for a little over a year now, and while winning on a short position is probably the most satisfying trade for me, the overwhelming majority of those trades are losses and at this point I mostly treat them as hedges. I suspect that is true for most market participants as well.
Even if this was a reliable signal for most of us it shouldn't change anyway. Timing the market is hard, so if you have a job keep investing in your retirement accounts and let dollar cost averaging work it out - odds are you are buying at fire sale prices. If you are one of those who lose your job - it doesn't matter much if the economy is good or bad, you need to adjust a lot of things (even in the best of times sometimes by chance you can be out of work for a long time)
If you are the manager of a mutual fund you can take useful action on signals like this if you can figure out what they mean. Most people don't have enough money to be worth trying to take action.
You may not be able to properly let dollar cost averaging do its thing if you rely on your job to invest, since there's a high correlation between periods where people are out of work and periods where asset prices are lower.
Even in the worst part of the great depression 75% of the people had a job. Most years where much better.
Don't get me wrong, if you don't have a job things are bad. If you have a job but it isn't giving good raises, or it is a worse job than you are qualified for things are bad. However things are not hopeless for the majority of people even when things are really bad, and you can get through it.
"Signals" are rubbish. The market is irrational and will change its mind at random.
This is, however, one of many indicators of an overall wobbling system. It would be a good time, not make the line go up, but to look for ways to stabilize the economy as a whole.
Which is unfortunately a hard question. One could theorize that we should do different things than the thing we've been doing for the past year or so, but of course there will be many who say that we just haven't done it hard enough yet.
It is easy to keep your head above water level for surprisingly long times. Just look how some people in retail manage to rack up credit card and other type of debt.
And it is especially so when money given is not their own, but instead they get to take cut. Which these funds can do. They might even just take promises that you will pay in future and even allow adding the interest on top of loan amount. Numbers look good, bonuses look good.
Fundamentally this can only last so long and now is the time it starts to blow up.
Yea the market will correct any time now from 2009.
Things will stay the way they are for as long as people want them to. The economy and money is fundamentally made up. It’s so funny when these types come out and start talking about made up fundamentals as if they are physics.
Employers will never be able to pay a living wage, because the real problem is a lack of housing. Rents and mortgages will always outrun wage increases in the current market.
The US Ponzi scheme coming to an end. It works great while everything is going up.
2008 Financial Crisis was triggered by Oil prices. There were lots of problematic structural elements that were fine if nobody looked close. Oil was just the sideway hit on the building to knock it over.
Just takes a nudge to collapse. And here we go again.
I thought it was by the layers upon layers of interconnected unregulated derivatives valued at a few orders of magnitude above the underlying subprime mortgages given to anyone with a pulse.
> it was by the layers upon layers of interconnected unregulated derivatives valued at a few orders of magnitude above the underlying subprime mortgages given to anyone with a pulse
It was interconnected derivatives and structured products linked to banks that caused a liquidity crisis in the former to cause a crisis of confidence in the latter.
Meanwhile: "In the letter, Morgan Stanley said the fund wasn’t designed to offer full liquidity because of the nature of its investments, and that credit fundamentals across the underlying portfolio have been broadly stable. The bank's shares fell 2% in premarket trading Thursday" [1].
> liquidity crisis in the former to cause a crisis of confidence in the latter
Wait what? Your thesis is the GFC was caused by a liquidity crunch/bank run? Isn't that... not true?
Isn't the proximal to distal chain of events government encouraged subprime loans -> inaacurately valued MBS -> exponential, unregulated derivative instruments -> leveraged contagion. What does market confidence have to do with any of that?
> your thesis is the GFC was caused by a liquidity crunch/bank run? Isn't that... not true?
It's absolutely proximally true and it's not just my thesis. From Wikipedia: "The first phase of the crisis was the subprime mortgage crisis, which began in early 2007, as mortgage-backed securities (MBS) tied to U.S. real estate, and a vast web of derivatives linked to those MBS, collapsed in value. A liquidity crisis spread to global institutions by mid-2007 and climaxed with the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers in September 2008, which triggered a stock market crash and bank runs in several countries" [1].
The subprime crisis shouldn't have been bigger than the S&L crisis [2]. What turned it into a financial crisis was the credit crunch that followed. That crunch was caused by folks running on banks that had sponsored these products.
On "inaccurately valued MBS," note that the paper marked AAA mostly paid out like a AAA security. It would be like if you were perfectly good for your word and I lent you money, but then I wanted to sell on that debt to a third party who didn't trust you at a 50% discount. What does "properly valued" mean in that context? It's ambiguous in a dangerous way. (In this analogy, you wind up paying back the debt at face value. But years later, albeit on schedule.)
it did. GFC was a financial recession no doubt, but oil prices was one of the final things that tipped everything over. Oil prices climbed high, slowed economic activity a bit, and the whole financial that teetering just collapsed.
I did make a snarky derivatives comment elsewhere in the thread, but I do see you're not wrong about oil prices peaking at $138 in June 2008 (Lehman collapsed in September 2008): https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DCOILBRENTEU
This time it took ~35 blows with a sledgehammer. You have to be impressed with the degree of resilience here, even a chaos monkey like Trump has a hard time completely destroying the US economy even when all checks & balances utterly fail.
Trump is a symptom, not a cause. One of probably hundreds of mediocre failsons gifted unbelievable wealth in the birth lottery who’s greatest achievement in life was managing to not lose all of it to his awful business acumen and utter refusal to listen to a single living person.
Every industry’s leadership is full of trumps, many more palatable personally, many far better spoken, many even with better politics but none fundamentally are any actually better for society. They don’t understand their company, the products it makes, they have utterly no care for anything besides the quarterly stock price and their lack of care costs real people their jobs and ruins the products we use every day.
And, they are why every company is ripping the copper out of its own walls instead of actually building a business that will last.
Pretty sure the solution that US politicians will find will be to create new dollars out of thin air, so instead of increasing taxes they increase the money supply.
Of course this is going to increase prices, but then they can blame China / Russia / Iran whoever is the scapegoat at that time.
It would cause inflation, isn’t that sort of a tax on people who have more wealth than income? (Which includes people like retirees, so, I’m not saying this is a universally good thing).
Theoretically yes, but in practice the wages of people already not making much have not tracked inflation and there's no reason to believe that they will now. That means any inflation is also a tax on them.
Poor people are hit a lot harder, but rich still have to pay capital gains on inflation even despite having no real change in value. So the rich pay inflation at the rate * 0.2. Poor pay it at the rate * 1.0 (5x the rate of the rich).
> rich still have to pay capital gains on inflation
“Pay” is doing a lot of work there. My house is half equity half debt. The debt gets to be paid off with inflated dollars. And I pay no capital gains on the appreciation. I can, however, tap it for liquidity if I need it.
Rich people don't tend to have a sizeable portion of their worth tied up in their primary residence (and even then, IIRC there is a cap on capital gains exception), otherwise property tax would turn into a wealth tax for them which obviously they want to avoid. Non-primary residences still require paying capital gains. The inflated value you paid off with debt for a non-primary residence still gets captured as capital gain in the end when you actually want to sell the house for money.
> isn’t that sort of a tax on people who have more wealth
Classically, yes, particularly when that wealth is closer to productive capital. In modern economies, the rich also hold a lot of debt, which lets them benefit from inflation.
Misleading title*
> The default rate among U.S. corporate borrowers of private credit rose to a record 9.2% in 2025
Emphasis added. Headline makes it sound like retail credit, not corporate specifically.
*Edit: Not misleading, just an unfamiliar term/usage from my perspective. I'm not a finance guy so didn't know the difference and assumed others wouldn't either. Mea culpa.
TBH "private credit" (meaning exactly what this article is talking about) is such a big thing in the finance industry that probably most finance industry people can't even fathom that the title is misleading to non-finance-industry people.
I'm not saying they are right. But it's like if you posted an article called "Python Is Eating the World" on a non-tech side and people got mad because they thought the article was about a wildlife emergency. Fair for them to be confused, but maybe not fair to accuse the title of being misleading (at least not intentionally).
Ha, yes I didn't even consider it meant anything other than corporate private credit. Otherwise we'd be talking about presumably mortgages or "consumer debt". Right?
It's some sort of Gell-Mann-Amnesia-like effect. I am accustomed to seeing thoughtful, informed discussion about technical topics on HN, so then it's jarring when something like this hits the front page and nobody seems to have any idea what they're talking about.
It's opposite Gell-Mann-Amnesia: I am a SWE and I come here because I find it one of the best places to keep abreast of the broader software world, not just the little corner of it that I'm currently working in. So in the things that I know well, I trust it. My wife is a medical professional, and so I know just enough to see that most medical conversations here are complete and utter nonsense.
So the mental model I have of the average HN contributor is basically that they are all SWE's- they know software engineering extremely well, and the farther you get from that the less valuable the conversation will be, and the more likely it will be someone trying to reason from first principles for 30 seconds about something that intelligent hard working people devote their careers to.
> Headline makes it sound like retail credit
I’m coming at this loaded with jargon, so excuse my blind spot, but why would the term private credit bring to mind anything to do with retail specifically?
(The term private credit in American—and, I believe, European—finance refers to “debt financing provided by non-bank lenders directly to companies or projects through privately negotiated agreements” [1].)
[1] https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/capital_mark...
>, by why would the term private credit bring to mind anything to do with retail specifically?
If a layman is unfamiliar that "private credit" is about business debts, and therefore only has intuition via previous exposure to "private X" to guess what it might mean, it's not unreasonable to assume it's about consumer loans.
"private insurance" can be about retail consumer purchased health insurance outside of employer-sponsored group health plans
"private banking" is retail banking (for UHNW individuals)
But "private credit" ... doesn't fit the pattern above because "private" is an overloaded word.
In other words, "private credit" is private the way "private equity" is private, not how "private insurance" is private.
> But "private credit" ... doesn't fit the pattern above because "private" is an overloaded word
Makes sense. Thanks. Private here is as in private versus public companies.
> and, I believe, European
Yes.
It surprises me that most people would read "private credit" to mean "retail credit" by default, but I also come to this loaded with jargon so I guess would defer to others on this. But to be clear, the title is not misleading to anyone who has any familiarity with the financial markets.
With the caveats that banks can originate private credit as long as it is separate from their reserve system credit (and consequently does not increase the money supply when originated)
Outside of finance, people associate "private" with "individual"
That's not the likely definition most will reach for here automatically (especially amidst the constant financial blackpilling).
I think you’re mistaken. We’ve been in a private credit bubble for a couple years at least, it’s in the finance/economic news every week and I’ve even started to hear regular NPR doing primers on it for normies. The term for “retail credit” is consumer debt or consumer debt. We don’t call it retail debt because the retailer is not actually a counterparty.
Out of curiosity where do you primarily get your news?
> not the likely definition most will reach for here
A lot of the datacenter buildout has been financed with private credit [1].
> financial blackpilling
?
[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-02-02/the-3-tri...
"Blackpilling" is apparently an incel term for fatalism/nihilism. Sounds like they're trying to read financial news through that lens.
> "Blackpilling" is apparently an incel term for fatalism/nihilism
Any idea as to the etymology? What was the black pill? Is it a Matrix reference?
Meta: why are incel neologisms so catchy?
I think (but I don't move in such circles) that originally there was "redpilled" to refer to people playing "The Game" (pickup artists). Original reference is to The Matrix, of course.
what on earth is "financial blackpilling"?
That's exactly where my mind went as soon as I read the title. HN rules say to "use the original title, unless it is misleading". I think the original title meets the misleading bar but I can't speak for other readers.
"Private credit" is a finance term of art. It could be misleading if you don't have context for the correct definition, but that's true of many posts on this site.
We just need to socialism harder.
it is correct, though.
someone not knowing the definition != misleading title
FWIW when I read "private credit" I think of private issuers, not retail.
Private as in private (i.e. non-public) corporation, not as in individual/retail/natural person borrowers.
Has the title been changed already? It currently says 'private credit', I don't see how that misleadingly sounds like 'retail credit'?
Thanks, I completely miss-read it thinking that it was about retail credit. facepalm. Time for coffee.
Reason this number caught my eye: last year the Fed's stress tests found "loss rates from [non-bank financial institution] exposures (i.e., the percentage of loans that are uncollectible) were estimated at 7%, under a severe recession in scenario one" [1].
That's the scenario in which unemployment goes to 10%, home prices crash by 33%, the stock market halves and Treasuries trade at zero percent yield [2].
[1] https://www.mfaalts.org/industry-research/2025-fed-stress-te...
[2] https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2025-june-dodd-f...
The categorization the Fed uses for NBFI is broader than private credit. E.g. if a hedge fund gives a loan to a private company, that's not private credit because hedge funds seem to have their own category. And lending backed by securities is also in a different category, it seems.
So I guess the Fed expects these other kinds of lending to be safer than private credit?
What's odd is according to the article, this index estimated an ~8% default rate in 2024. So maybe the stress test was measuring something different? It's weird to think the stress test would find a lower loss rate during a severe recession than in the most recent year with data available.
The regulators were modeling a scenario where private credit was dragged down by a problem elsewhere in the economy, not one where the rest of the economy was dragged down by private credit. Everyone understands that center of a financial implosion is always worse than its effects on the broader economy, but regulators aren't tasked with stopping the explosion at ground zero, they are tasked with stopping contagion dominoes from falling, so that's what they model.
> maybe the stress test was measuring something different?
The Fed is measuring the loss on bank loans to the private-credit lenders. A 10% portfolio loss shouldn't result in those lenders defaulting to their banks.
By my rough estimate, one can halve the portfolio loss rate to get the NBFI-to-bank loss rate. So a 10% portfolio loss means we're around a 5% expected long-run loss to the banks. Which is still weirdly high, so I feel like I must be missing something...
Luckily debt will be solved by the power of AGI, right? Just one more data centre! One more GPU! It can nearly write a basic three tier application with only 10 critical security vulnerabilities all by itself!
Definitely think we’re in for a rough year financial prospects wise, and doesn’t even feel like we recovered from the 2008 crash properly.
We didn't recover from the 2008 crash properly because we didn't introduce consequences for those who created it.
Hundreds of financial institutions with greater or lesser responsibility for the crash in 2008 went under in those years[0]. The shareholders in almost all of these companies lost all of their money and the responsible employees lost their jobs. This includes some of the most guilty companies, like Washington Mutual, Countrywide Financial, IndyMac, Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch (through First Franklin Financial), Bear Stearns. But all these companies are completely forgotten now.
Instead everyone hates on Goldman Sachs. Sure, Goldman Sachs deserves hate, but of the big banks they were the _least_ guilty of the crash in 2008. Not saying they were saints, but in 2008 they were the least bad.
0: This list only covers banks, not non-banks like Countrywide Financial: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bank_failures_in_the_U...
When you have people at the top of those institutions who made those decisions, and made enough money during their tenures to weather any length of unemployment and were sometimes even given a severance worth more money than the average American makes in a lifetime, going out of business or losing a job simply isn't enough.
It's one of the only investments of labor and time where the risk is not proportional to the return.
In order to create risk, you have to either claw back their money through civil action - which you can't because the entire point of incorporation is to separate the business entity from one's personal finances - or look at criminal charges. Otherwise, you have created a class of hyper-wealthy people who have no real incentive to perform in a way that is for the best interests of shareholders or society at large.
It's the reason we tie so much for regular people to employment in the US, like healthcare. Many argue that if you give the rank-and-file worker the kind of long-term financial security that just one or two years of being a C-suite executive at a major company, they won't work as hard. They won't make the best decisions. They won't be the dynamic workers our economy supposedly wants. That logic goes right out the window when a board goes hunting for a new CEO.
There's zero real risk involved.
>The shareholders in almost all of these companies lost all of their money
How is that penalizing those responsible?
Isn't it a pretty big leap to go from penalizing those selling packaged fraudulent loans to the public (whom, to my knowledge were never prosecuted) to the shareholders losing money as protection against it happening again?
That's because debt IS money. Literally. If you create debt, you have created wealth. These people weren't punished so they could get back to creating new debt as quickly as possible. The problem with credit defaults, especially private credit defaults, isn't that some private creditors lose some money, it's that twice that amount of money is destroyed, and disappears from the economy entirely.
> That's because debt IS money. Literally.
OK.
> If you create debt, you have created wealth.
No, you have created money. Money is not the same as wealth. If you create money without creating wealth, then it's inflationary.
Just a minor nit. The rest of your post I agree with.
Consequences would be nice, but actually forbidding it for the future would be enough. Obama promised to do it, but didn't, and everybody kind of forgot and moved on.
The legislative produced Frank-Dodd...which Trump and Republicans later scaled back...
Do we still have three separate branches?
We sure did when Frank-Dodd was written by the legislative and then signed into law by the executive.
GP's comment is about the aftermath of 2008, entirely missing the fact that the legislative did in fact create laws which were signed by the executive and then later, in 2018, dismantled under a different administration.
It's a matter of simple facts here.
Frank-Dodd wasn't nearly as strict as the post-1929 regulation (Glass-Steagall act) that actually prevented such crisies for half a century.
Sure, but is that Obama's fault? See GP
In fact we rewarded them. We bailed them out by printing a lot of money. We then printed more money during the pandemic to pay people to stay home and watch Netflix. Probably a lot more examples. All that money flowing around that has no basis in actual productivity or value created. It's got to correct at some point. One of the corrections is how much more everything costs now, but I don't think that has fully absorbed the excess.
I would argue the second instance (pandemic) was much more nearly what a good government should do than the first one
Exact opposite. We are in the midst of the COVID hangover.
So that govt money went to the wealthy to buy up houses (Californians bought real estate in the Midwest as investments and it drove up housing prices along with small immigration to these states)
Farmers etc benefited from bailouts when they were doing very well. It was a large blunder.
All that money directly led to housing inflation that still hasn't settled. The PPP loans were all forgiven (which massively favored business owners and upper class).
Meanwhile student loan forgiveness was overruled by the supreme court.
It's really hard to ignore the implication that it ended up being more like a wealth transfer than anything else.
It may be what they should have done, but the effect was still inflationary. There is no free lunch.
It was inflationary but would spread out the pain over the recovery period after the crisis, the other option was to allow 100% of the pain to be felt immediately: economy shutting down, people losing their jobs, diminished household spending, less money circulating in the economy, businesses still running having fewer orders/customers, more people being laid off, all the way until the crisis passed.
Between the latter and the former I believe the former was a much smarter choice in the medium to long term.
> We bailed them out by printing a lot of money.
We did. We created about $4 trillion. That just about neutralized the $4 trillion that evaporated in the crash, and the result was that we did not go through a deflationary collapse. You know that they did not create too much, because inflation was basically nothing for the next decade. It was flat until Covid.
Covid... yeah, that was inflationary.
I appreciate your posts generally, you have a lot of good insights.
Do you think replacing that 4T was a good call? I'm struggling to see how it was the right play.
I think it was a good call, yes. A deflationary collapse is incredibly damaging to the economy. The Great Depression was such a collapse, but there are others. The Panic of 1857, 1873, 1907... there's a long history of these.
The Fed avoided that. And they also avoided causing inflation. It was an amazing job of threading the needle. (One could argue that they caused a decade of stagnation, but in my view that was minor compared to the other options.)
Thank you for the thoughts. Do you think if we had ripped the band-aid off then it would have been completely disastrous? I don't mind saying that this economy is frustrating, and it feels like we keep kicking the can down the road. I'm confident I'm not the only person that feels this way, and I'm quite open to being wrong here. My guts says there's just too much money sloshing around, and it gets vacuumed up, leaving the majority feeling like nothing changed.
I'm asking this in as non-confrontational way as possible, what am I missing?
I think you may be missing that $4 trillion evaporated in 2008, and the scale of the catastrophe that would have caused if the Fed did nothing. What the Fed did then was, essentially, restore the amount of money to what it was in 2007. They were trying to turn 2008 into as much of a "nothing changed" as they could, and they did it quite well.
I think the economy can adjust to any amount of money; it's the abrupt change in the amount that causes problems (because it causes an abrupt change in the value of money).
I think you may be missing that I'm not saying the same thing about the pandemic response. I think that too much money got poured in during the pandemic years, and that has caused inflation, and we've been seeing that inflation since. I wonder if you are taking how you feel about the last five or six years, and mapping that onto the last 18 years.
Now, from 2008 to 2020 was not all roses. Things were kind of stagnant. The rich were probably doing better than you were, because assets like stocks and land went up in value as interest rates went down, but your wages didn't go up. So, it was reasonable for you to feel "there's too much money sloshing around" in things like stocks during those years.
But I think it got worse after Covid. The government air-dropped too much money in, and there has definitely been too much money sloshing around since then.
In all of this, I'm not really saying that you're wrong in feeling that there's too much money sloshing around, or that the economy is frustrating.
I mean people have been saying a crash is coming for years... Consumers recklessly purchased homes and cars at double their value, while relocating for remote work that was never long term in the eyes of their employer. Sounds like a receipt for disaster or a repeat of 2008- however, so much has changed since 2008... whatever happens, Black Swan! Hope "you" have your ducks in a row... As for AGI, lol. A box of matmuls isnt going to solve any real problems, so far, as you point out- is can barely write software. LLMs are basically gifted children. Smart sounding, lacking wisdom, chaotic, and likely just going to end up not that impressive. Either way- before we ever see AGI, we better get our heads out of the holes of the wealthy and enact UBI...
> I mean people have been saying a crash is coming for years
The internet working didn't make the Dotcom bubble not happen. Investors don't know anything about the new investment space and most of them are going to get hosed eventually. It's going to happen, and it'll be bad for people who are betting on it not happening.
> A box of matmuls isnt going to solve any real problems, so far, as you point out- is can barely write software
Code monkey cope.
What cope? I work in AI, write code with AI, promote the use of AI... Im just a pragmatic realist man. Not a delusional cool aid drinker...
You're coping. Two years ago they could barely write software. These days they do it just fine.
Trouble has been brewing in private credit for quite a while, but lenders and investors have been reluctant to write anything down, resorting to all kinds of "extend and pretend" games to avoid write-downs.
tick-tock, tick-tock, tick-tock...
I guess it is fair to say the federal funds rate has persisted at a high level over the past three years now isn't it?
https://www.macrotrends.net/2015/fed-funds-rate-historical-c...
Also interesting to note, "Fitch recorded NO defaults in the software sector last year. The rating agency noted it categorizes software issuers into their main target market sectors when applicable."
The problem of the current situation is that even 5% is considered as a high interest for many people, if not most of them. Inflation already pushes up the base price, and if the interest rate keeps on 5% and above many people simply won't consume, which will further pull down the economy.
For example, we decided to keep our vehicle for another 4-5 years instead of buying a new one. The same Hyundai vehicle of the same model, but different year (2026 v.s. 2020), has gone up 8,000 CAD (10K CAD considering tax), with a much higher rate (5.99% v.s. 0%). There is no way I'm buying another car in the foreseeable future. We can definitely afford it, but we won't.
The whole world has pushed up prices of food, housing and pretty much everything higher. This is the real problem -- although I wouldn't say it is the root problem.
> but it's not really historically high
i dont think the inflationary seventies and eighties are great lodestar
low interest rates are historically a sign of a stable polity and economy. so if anything, we want the conditions for prolonged low interest rates, rather than prolonged high interest rate.
I've never heard the term private credit so I googled it.
> Private credit refers to loans provided to businesses by non-bank institutions—such as private equity firms, hedge funds, and alternative asset managers—rather than traditional banks .
Is that correct?
So if these companies go under does anyone care? If they go under are they a systemic risk to the economy like the banks in 2008 that got a taxpayer bailout?
I find the money stuff newsletter by Matt Levine (bloomberg) great for this, the link is behind a paywal, but the newsletter is free. strong rec. todays newseltter https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/newsletters/2026-03-11/pri...
From that newseltter:
> At the Financial Times, Jill Shah and Eric Platt report:
>JPMorgan Chase ... informed private credit lenders that it had marked down the value of certain loans in their portfolios, which serve as the collateral the funds use to borrow from the bank, according to people familiar with the matter. >...
>The loans that have been devalued are to software companies, which are seen as particularly vulnerable to the onset of AI. ...
From what i can tell the problem isn't that an individual who had cash to invest in a private (tech in this case) company goes down
the problem is that a company "private credit firms run retail-focused funds (“business development companies” or BDCs)" which took out a bunch of loans to invest in private tech companies is now having the underlying assets that they got those loans against (long term investments in private tech companies) valued lower.
the link im missing is what happens when people who also invested in BDCs want their money back, where their actual money is locked up in long term investments made to private tech companies, and their ability to get loans is now valued lower. I think this is called a "run" where if someone starts pulling money out, and ultimately you cant, then its a race to get your money out before others do, which applies to both the individuals and the institutional loans.
Note: my quotes are from the bloomberg newsletter i mention, which helped me, not the OP article. And i am writing as much to clarify my own thinking as from a place of understanding. I welcome clarification.
It is a systemic risk because its size and credit risk is opaque, like mortgage-backed securities were in 2008.
Banks needs to disclose the % of non-performing home, auto, business loans to rating agencies and regulatory bodies so their credit risk is known, and so regulators they can set rules on how loose or tight lending criteria should be in the industry. With 'financial innovation' like tranched mortgage bonds rolling up thousands of mortgages at various levels of credit risk into one, they can be traded without anyone actually knowing what the default risk is.
With private credit, there is no disclosure requirement because the lenders are not banks. PC is financing the entire AI datacenter boom, without which GDP growth in the US is effectively zero. If PC defaults rise, the bottom could rapidly fall out of the S&P 500, which is already being hit by the oil price crisis, and affect people's 401Ks and retirement savings.
> So if these companies go under does anyone care? If they go under are they a systemic risk to the economy like the banks in 2008 that got a taxpayer bailout?
Mostly, no, which is exactly why private credit has become so big in recent years: they are making the loans the banks can't or don't want to make, because the banks are subject to a bunch of additional regulations, which are designed to reduce the probability of banks going bust and having to be bailed out.
But it can be difficult to judge second order effects in finance. It's possible that a lot of private credit houses going bust would indirectly and perhaps unexpectedly hurt the broader economy. An obvious one being companies that are reliant on private credit going bust because their financing needs can no longer be met.
Also, with this administration in the US I wouldn't entirely rule out bailouts for some of the more politically connected private lenders.
> But it can be difficult to judge second order effects in finance.
Another obvious question to ask is who is providing the money that is being lent? Those are the people who now won't be paid back. The assumption is that these are people with predictable, long-term obligations who can lock up their cash for a long time: pensions, insurance companies, endowments, etc. Hopefully they are allocating a responsible amount of their portfolio to something as risky as private credit, but as the details are private, it can be really hard to know.
There has also been a big push over the past year to put private credit assets into retail 401k's (which, in theory, also should be okay with locking up funds for a long time, but in practice, maybe less so), most insidiously by having private credit assets held in target date funds (which are the default funds for many plans).
Many private credit funds also increase their leverage by borrowing from actual banks.
All of that should pose less systemic risk than if banks subject to bank runs were lending all of the money. But that has to be balanced by the fact that these are unregulated entities taking more risks than banks would. Long-term average default rates on high-yield bonds are around 4%, so 9.2% is high, but not in panic-inducing territory yet. Who knows what they will look like in the event of an actual recession.
Two funny things:
Banks have lend to these institutions as they couldn't lend themselves. Might be systematic risk.
Lot of pension capital is tied to these vehicles. So they go under. Many people won't be getting their pensions in short or long term...
> So if these companies go under does anyone care?
This is nowhere near as bad as the 2008 crisis, no. The banks don't really use the checking/savings account money for this. If you've invested in something that either invests in Private Credit or is reliant on Private Credit, then it'll suck for you personally.
...
One teeny tiny extremely important detail: Private Credit is bankrolling the AI industry's datacenter construction. If anything happens to significantly increase interest rates, several datacenter companies and Oracle go bankrupt. The other big tech firms have taken on lots of debt as well so expect spending cuts there too, even if they survive.
The systemic risk isn't in "bankers fucked it up again", it's in the AI bubble.
Well, yes, as the article mentions. If this increases a bank's losses, then the bank could become insolovent.
Important to note that this is about "U.S. corporate borrowers of private credit", so companies and not individuals.
I'm not surprised. Weren't we getting signals like 3 or 4 months ago that used car repossessions were ticking up? That's a breaking point for folks. The economic boulder keeps rolling and I'm not wearing any shoes. Spiking the price of oil is definitely going to help. This too shall pass?
Wrong market
Since a lot of people here aren't familiar with the private credit situation, here's my understanding, which comes almost entirely from reading Money Stuff, a daily column by Matt Levine. If you are a tech person who wants to learn about finance, I recommend it! It's a lot more entertaining than most finance industry reporting.
"Private credit" is an idea that has been hot in finance for the last several years, originating from the great financial crisis (GFC). After the GFC, regulations made it very hard for banks to make business loans with any kind of risk anymore. So instead, new non-bank institutions stepped in to make loans to businesses. These "private credit" institutions raise money from investors, and lend it to businesses.
The investors are usually institutions who are OK with locking up their money long-term, like insurance companies and pension funds. This all seems a lot safer than having banks making loans: banks get their funding from depositors, who are allowed to withdraw their deposit any time they want. So a bank really needs to hold liquid assets so they are prepared for a run on the bank, and corporate borrowing is not very liquid. Insurance companies and pension funds have much more predictability as to when they actually will need their money back, so can safely put it in private credit with long horizons.
It's not quite so clean, though.
It's actually common for banks to lend money directly to private credit lenders, who then lend it out to companies. But when this happens, typically the bank is only lending a fraction of the total and arranges that they get paid back first, so it's significantly less risky than if they were loaning directly to the companies. Of course, the non-bank investors get higher returns on their riskier investment.
And the returns have been pretty good. Or were. With the banks suddenly retreating from this space, there was a lot of money to be made filling the gap, and so private credit got a reputation for paying back really good returns while being more predictable than the stock market.
But this meant it got hot. Really hot.
It got so hot that there were more people wanting to lend money than there were qualified borrowers. When that happens, naturally standards start to degrade.
And then interest rates went up, after having been near-zero for a very long time.
And now a lot of borrowers are struggling to pay back their loans on time. And the lenders need to pay back investors, so sometimes they are compromising by getting new investors to pay back the old ones, and stuff. It's getting precarious.
Meanwhile a lot of private credit institutions are hoping to start accepting retail investors. Not because retail investors have a lot of money and are gullible, no no no. 401(k) plans are by definition locked up for many years, so obviously should be perfect for making private credit investments! Also those 401(k)s today are all being dumped into index funds which have almost zero fees, whereas private credit funds have high fees. Wait, that's not the reason though!
But just as they are getting to the point of finding ways to accept retail investors, it's looking like the returns might not be so great anymore. Could be a crisis brewing. Even if the banks are pretty safe, it's not great if pensions and insurance companies lose a lot of money...
Skip the blogspam and read the original article: https://www.reuters.com/business/us-private-credit-defaults-...
Paywalled
https://web.archive.org/web/20260312130613/https://www.marke...
^ Encase the link also responds with this for you:
I have been following this development for a couple weeks, and now it's on HN. How long until the elevator guy tells me about it?
You have an elevator guy?! /s
Private credit is cracking and lending standards are tightening behind the scenes. If you’re not building cash reserves right now you’re going to wish you had. The distressed opportunities ahead go to whoever kept dry powder while everyone else was chasing growth.
If your business is light on free cash flow (ie everyone in AI at the moment) buckle up as there are storm clouds ahead. If you’re running a business that relies on external cash (VCs, loans/bonds, etc) to keep things going things will get very ugly.
This is not my field of expertise, but I modeled keeping cash reserves to buy distressed assets. Unless I was able to perfectly predict the crash, the outcome was still better to not time the market.
Well it only took 5 years of destroying responsible savers with every policy imaginable to make sure they get crushed by those who availed themselves of the negative real rate loan inflation machine. How many people are left remaining that were dumb enough to take that strategy and are still standing? If you were operating on a cash basis for the last 5 years you were mostly wiped out by people leveraged to the 9s on debts and meanwhile your buying power was erased.
Interest rates on things like CDs and low-risk bonds have been decent for a while now. It’s not been painful to sit on cash reserves provided you were smart about where the cash was parked.
It’s not an either/or, it’s just a question of who was participating in the boom while preparing for storms ahead vs those all in on the boom.
What implodes in the period ahead are things that are massively over leveraged and can’t absorb a hit without doubling down again with more funding/loans and such. These are the folks and companies that get wiped out.
Interest rates on things like CDs and low-risk bonds have been decent for a while now. It’s not been painful to sit on cash reserves provided you were smart about where the cash was parked.
Just make sure you can unpark it, else you're SVB.
It's decent only if you believe inflation = CPI
In actuality, the CPI is lower than inflation because technological advancement, automation, and economies of scale (due to globalization etc) are driving consumer prices low. In other words, if factories are still producing things like they were 20 years ago, the CPI would have been much higher, and that higher number is closer to what should have been the inflation number.
A better measure is what % of the total money supply you have.
I.e. you started out with 2e-20 % of the total money, and after 5 years you now have 1e-20 % of the total money, then whatever happened to CPI, you've been diluted and you would probably have been better off investing in something else other than cash.
That makes sense in theory, but in reality what "total money supply" is is a complete can of worms and basically impossible to measure
> if factories are still producing things like they were 20 years ago, the CPI would have been much higher, and that higher number is closer to what should have been the inflation number
This is an impossible counterfactual to test. In reality, tracking value across time requires adjusting for immeasurable preferences. This is why inflation is really only a useful measure for personal purposes across periods of years. It’s only macro economically interesting across a generation and close to meaningless longer than a human lifespan.
I think it's so obvious that no testing is needed, but generally I don't disagree with your take.
The thing is one really needs to understand what "real yields" mean when investing in bonds, i.e. it means your purchasing power with respect to cheap commodities tracked by the CPI is preserved, but it doesn't necessarily mean "value" (whatever that means in the abstract) is retained.
> it means your purchasing power with respect to cheap commodities tracked by the CPI is preserved
CPI isn't a measure of commodities. And "CPI" is a bit of shorthand, given there are pretty much as many measures of consumer and producer prices as there are economists.
> it doesn't necessarily mean "value" (whatever that means in the abstract) is retained
This is what any measure of inflation ultimately seeks to measure. Purchasing power is intrinsically tied to the basket of goods and services its measuring. That basket varies across people and time as preferences vary.
You're not wrong it's always good to have cash but certain allocations could have done 50%-100% return on investment while a CD brought ~5.5% for a while. Look at S&P since 2021. Knowing when to transition from cash, liquidity, other instruments is what kills/allows people to survive. We can't all do the same thing, it's almost as if it's economic ecological evolution, random death.
Decent is fine if you're about to retire and want to avoid risk but I wouldn't recommend parking your wealth in CDs/bonds if your retirement is still 15+ years out, personally. The government has to print money to bail itself out which means things are going to inflate quite a bit, just look at what gold has done in anticipation of this.
Banks bailed out the hedge funds in '98, then the taxpayer bailed out the banks in '08, then the government bailed out the taxpayer in '20... now monetary policy from the fed has to prevent the government from defaulting.
> If you’re running a business that relies on external cash (VCs, loans/bonds, etc) to keep things going things will get very ugly.
Honestly thrilled to hear it. The AI bubble needs to burst so we can find out what's actually useful, start requiring real business models again, and get rid of all the noise and waste.
The problem is all these over-leveraged sectors will drag everybody else. And guess who will be bailed out? Heads they win, tails everybody but them loses.
> The problem is all these over-leveraged sectors will drag everybody else
Well, the good news is that's what good public policy is for, to blunt the impact of the damage with strong anti-trust enforcement and careful cash injections to weak-but-critical areas of the economy to help stabilize in rough times.
Now, hang on for just one moment while I crawl out from under this rock and take a look at who we have entrusted to set our public policy.
Assets don't disappear they get bidded.
And who buys those troubled assets at deep discount? Where do they get the cash to pay for them?
The problem is, what assets remain of a company that doesn't own anything material? OpenAI, Anthropic - they don't own datacenters that could be auctioned off. All they own is training data and trained weights, and both are relatively worthless.
The game that all the AI companies are playing is to be the last dog standing at all costs, because that kind of dominance is a money printer.
Most business is noise and waste. I love that no one gets that.
It’s like hoping for the apocalypse thinking you’re of course the hardcore survivalist. When in reality you’ll get eaten first.
People have cried wolf or been wrong about incoming crashes and bubble pops so many times that this signal -- whether it's a good signal or not -- simply won't change anything I do.
I'm sure someone somewhere could make a trade off of this article and this signal is definitely for them.
It is incredibly hard to make money going short. Even if you are right about the direction, most short positions require interest payments to hold, or have some sort of decay built into the structure. So timing is everything and even then, if the underlying security slowly grinds down (instead of a quick abrupt move) you could still lose if the interest/decay on the short position outruns the downward movement on the underlying.
I have been actively trading in the market for a little over a year now, and while winning on a short position is probably the most satisfying trade for me, the overwhelming majority of those trades are losses and at this point I mostly treat them as hedges. I suspect that is true for most market participants as well.
There's actually (at least) three things going against you going short:
- position has significant negative carry (what you're talking about there)
- stock/bond prices are nominal and the government constantly prints the denominator so prices tend to go up even if there's no actual growth
- for equities there is a genuine long term positive drift over time even if the denominator doesn't change
So yes, it's hard to make money going short and timing is everything
Even if this was a reliable signal for most of us it shouldn't change anyway. Timing the market is hard, so if you have a job keep investing in your retirement accounts and let dollar cost averaging work it out - odds are you are buying at fire sale prices. If you are one of those who lose your job - it doesn't matter much if the economy is good or bad, you need to adjust a lot of things (even in the best of times sometimes by chance you can be out of work for a long time)
If you are the manager of a mutual fund you can take useful action on signals like this if you can figure out what they mean. Most people don't have enough money to be worth trying to take action.
You may not be able to properly let dollar cost averaging do its thing if you rely on your job to invest, since there's a high correlation between periods where people are out of work and periods where asset prices are lower.
Even in the worst part of the great depression 75% of the people had a job. Most years where much better.
Don't get me wrong, if you don't have a job things are bad. If you have a job but it isn't giving good raises, or it is a worse job than you are qualified for things are bad. However things are not hopeless for the majority of people even when things are really bad, and you can get through it.
"Signals" are rubbish. The market is irrational and will change its mind at random.
This is, however, one of many indicators of an overall wobbling system. It would be a good time, not make the line go up, but to look for ways to stabilize the economy as a whole.
Which is unfortunately a hard question. One could theorize that we should do different things than the thing we've been doing for the past year or so, but of course there will be many who say that we just haven't done it hard enough yet.
What the hell ?! Nearly 10% ?! How can it be?! World wide, it seems to be around 4% since 2004.
Page 22 (French but it's just numbers, you can read it). <https://www.eib.org/files/publications/thematic/gems_default...>
It is easy to keep your head above water level for surprisingly long times. Just look how some people in retail manage to rack up credit card and other type of debt.
And it is especially so when money given is not their own, but instead they get to take cut. Which these funds can do. They might even just take promises that you will pay in future and even allow adding the interest on top of loan amount. Numbers look good, bonuses look good.
Fundamentally this can only last so long and now is the time it starts to blow up.
Yea the market will correct any time now from 2009.
Things will stay the way they are for as long as people want them to. The economy and money is fundamentally made up. It’s so funny when these types come out and start talking about made up fundamentals as if they are physics.
Go figure. Employers don't want to pay living wages or hire.
Employers will never be able to pay a living wage, because the real problem is a lack of housing. Rents and mortgages will always outrun wage increases in the current market.
The US Ponzi scheme coming to an end. It works great while everything is going up.
2008 Financial Crisis was triggered by Oil prices. There were lots of problematic structural elements that were fine if nobody looked close. Oil was just the sideway hit on the building to knock it over.
Just takes a nudge to collapse. And here we go again.
> 2008 Financial Crisis was triggered by Oil prices.
Not by the subprime mortgages given to anyone with a pulse?
I thought it was by the layers upon layers of interconnected unregulated derivatives valued at a few orders of magnitude above the underlying subprime mortgages given to anyone with a pulse.
> it was by the layers upon layers of interconnected unregulated derivatives valued at a few orders of magnitude above the underlying subprime mortgages given to anyone with a pulse
It was interconnected derivatives and structured products linked to banks that caused a liquidity crisis in the former to cause a crisis of confidence in the latter.
Meanwhile: "In the letter, Morgan Stanley said the fund wasn’t designed to offer full liquidity because of the nature of its investments, and that credit fundamentals across the underlying portfolio have been broadly stable. The bank's shares fell 2% in premarket trading Thursday" [1].
[1] https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/stock-market-today-dow-sp-5...
> liquidity crisis in the former to cause a crisis of confidence in the latter
Wait what? Your thesis is the GFC was caused by a liquidity crunch/bank run? Isn't that... not true?
Isn't the proximal to distal chain of events government encouraged subprime loans -> inaacurately valued MBS -> exponential, unregulated derivative instruments -> leveraged contagion. What does market confidence have to do with any of that?
> your thesis is the GFC was caused by a liquidity crunch/bank run? Isn't that... not true?
It's absolutely proximally true and it's not just my thesis. From Wikipedia: "The first phase of the crisis was the subprime mortgage crisis, which began in early 2007, as mortgage-backed securities (MBS) tied to U.S. real estate, and a vast web of derivatives linked to those MBS, collapsed in value. A liquidity crisis spread to global institutions by mid-2007 and climaxed with the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers in September 2008, which triggered a stock market crash and bank runs in several countries" [1].
> government encouraged subprime loans -> inaacurately valued MBS -> exponential, unregulated derivative instruments -> leveraged contagion
The subprime crisis shouldn't have been bigger than the S&L crisis [2]. What turned it into a financial crisis was the credit crunch that followed. That crunch was caused by folks running on banks that had sponsored these products.
On "inaccurately valued MBS," note that the paper marked AAA mostly paid out like a AAA security. It would be like if you were perfectly good for your word and I lent you money, but then I wanted to sell on that debt to a third party who didn't trust you at a 50% discount. What does "properly valued" mean in that context? It's ambiguous in a dangerous way. (In this analogy, you wind up paying back the debt at face value. But years later, albeit on schedule.)
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_financial_crisis
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis
That was the structural problem. Definitely bad. A weak economy propped up by some 'fake' money.
Oil was more of the outside force that put a shock to that weak system.
I think the GP is trying to say that oil prices where the nudge that pushed the bad loans and derivatives out of stability.
I don't remember oil getting expensive back then, but it's a long time ago.
it did. GFC was a financial recession no doubt, but oil prices was one of the final things that tipped everything over. Oil prices climbed high, slowed economic activity a bit, and the whole financial that teetering just collapsed.
There were many involved factors, but the 2008 financial crisis was started when Ben Bernanke raised interest rates.
Now the subprime credit of entire cities is being sold bank to bank. I'd argue that's a direct escalation of the 2008 credit crisis.
That was the structural problem.
But it was swept under the rug, it was hidden by market constantly going up.
Ponzi schemes can hide in a market going up, because nobody is trying to pull money back out.
Suddenly everyone wanting their money, and the shortfall suddenly become apparent.
Oil prices suddenly made everyone try to pull money out, and 'woops there is nothing here'.
I did make a snarky derivatives comment elsewhere in the thread, but I do see you're not wrong about oil prices peaking at $138 in June 2008 (Lehman collapsed in September 2008): https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DCOILBRENTEU
This time it took ~35 blows with a sledgehammer. You have to be impressed with the degree of resilience here, even a chaos monkey like Trump has a hard time completely destroying the US economy even when all checks & balances utterly fail.
It feels a bit like in a Road Runner cartoon. We already ran well past the cliff, just haven't noticed yet that we should be falling down.
Trump is a symptom, not a cause. One of probably hundreds of mediocre failsons gifted unbelievable wealth in the birth lottery who’s greatest achievement in life was managing to not lose all of it to his awful business acumen and utter refusal to listen to a single living person.
Every industry’s leadership is full of trumps, many more palatable personally, many far better spoken, many even with better politics but none fundamentally are any actually better for society. They don’t understand their company, the products it makes, they have utterly no care for anything besides the quarterly stock price and their lack of care costs real people their jobs and ruins the products we use every day.
And, they are why every company is ripping the copper out of its own walls instead of actually building a business that will last.
Go figure. Employers don't want to pay living wages or hire anyone these days.
Pretty sure the solution that US politicians will find will be to create new dollars out of thin air, so instead of increasing taxes they increase the money supply.
Of course this is going to increase prices, but then they can blame China / Russia / Iran whoever is the scapegoat at that time.
That’s a tax on the poor
It would cause inflation, isn’t that sort of a tax on people who have more wealth than income? (Which includes people like retirees, so, I’m not saying this is a universally good thing).
Theoretically yes, but in practice the wages of people already not making much have not tracked inflation and there's no reason to believe that they will now. That means any inflation is also a tax on them.
No because assets hold their worth. Poor people have no assets
Poor people are hit a lot harder, but rich still have to pay capital gains on inflation even despite having no real change in value. So the rich pay inflation at the rate * 0.2. Poor pay it at the rate * 1.0 (5x the rate of the rich).
> rich still have to pay capital gains on inflation
“Pay” is doing a lot of work there. My house is half equity half debt. The debt gets to be paid off with inflated dollars. And I pay no capital gains on the appreciation. I can, however, tap it for liquidity if I need it.
Rich people don't tend to have a sizeable portion of their worth tied up in their primary residence (and even then, IIRC there is a cap on capital gains exception), otherwise property tax would turn into a wealth tax for them which obviously they want to avoid. Non-primary residences still require paying capital gains. The inflated value you paid off with debt for a non-primary residence still gets captured as capital gain in the end when you actually want to sell the house for money.
You're right, thanks.
Isn’t it the opposite? Salaries are sticky while asset prices rise freely with the liquidity of the market for them
> isn’t that sort of a tax on people who have more wealth
Classically, yes, particularly when that wealth is closer to productive capital. In modern economies, the rich also hold a lot of debt, which lets them benefit from inflation.
Stop paying rent. Stop going to work. Pirate everything. No constitution. No copyright. Starve the beast.
Don't let anyone who bought into this way of life get away with robbing the rest of us.
And don't let anyone who brought children into this cruelty hear the end of it: what they did was evil.