I moved when Obama was president. I sincerely believed that we were in a post racial world. Imagine my surprise in seeing people proudly flying confederate flags in Austin!
I am still hopeful. While that flag was considered “ok” then, it no longer is anymore, and I rarely see it in the urban areas.
> I sincerely believed that we were in a post racial world.
I grew up in a post-racial world as a "brown" immigrant in a deep red Virginia county in the 1990s. My daughter, meanwhile, developed a strong "brown" identity from her teachers in our deep blue state. I don't blame Obama for it. But there was a definite shift in thinking during his administration where the distinct politics of black democrats--which is highly focused on racial identity for obvious reasons--became generalized to the hispanics and Asians that democrats sought to court. It was a couple of years into the Obama administration that someone called me a “person of color,” something I find deeply offensive.
According to polling, yes: https://www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/politics/confederate-flag-pol.... For people who grew up in the 1980s and 1990s in the south, it was a generic symbol of rebellion or regional rivalry. Remember, Dukes of Hazzard, which aired in the 1980s, was a liberal show about southern boys fighting corrupt politicians and greedy businessmen.
Now you can say “hey, maybe you shouldn’t have picked that particular flag as a symbol to mean ‘fuck the Patriots.’” But that doesn’t change the fact that it did happen over a long time period. And it’s hardly unusual for cultural symbols have weird or sinister origins but mean something quite different in present day.
I wonder what this will do to the US developer salary premium. You could, for reasons I never entirely understood, make so much more money doing the same job in the US than anywhere else. And I don't mean comparing to India or China, but comparable CoL countries in e.g. Europe.
Sure, US is more productive, has bigger tech companies, attracts talent, and not least, their hectocorns are truly making the world a better place with their CRUD apps and REST APIs.
But at these levels of imbalance, already a long time ago I would have expected US companies to move a lot of their software engineering efforts to Europe or India or elsewhere, and it just wasn't happening, despite SE being one of the most remote-able jobs ever.
But now, the trickle of expat workers into the US appears to be drying up, apparently Americans are leaving too. There will be more and more pressure for these companies to hire abroad even for non-monetary reasons (as is already happening) and I fear for my fellow American HNians that they will like paying a fraction of the cost for the same job.
There's also a non-zero number of Canadian engineers in the US. No visa required, just a job acceptance letter for TN status at the border. Minimal language or cultural barrier and educated at competitive colleges. Those workers are going to take their US salaries and experience back to Canada if the US continues to alienate its neighbors. Canada is also building a lot more connections with nations that the US is shunning, like China.
I imagine because the other jobs all around SE isn't as outsourcable. Designs and PM in particular. At some point the timezone pain is not worth the cost savings.
On a meta note, this comment section is absolutely littered with flagged and dead comments from fresh accounts. There are certain topics that really bring out the emotions.
Canada is actively recruiting healthcare workers and it's apparently become quite easy to get people to move up. If I were a healthcare worker I wouldn't have to think about it for very long before having the U-Haul loaded up and ready to go.
https://healthcareinfusion.org is actively promoted on social media channels to assist with this, a project of the Canadian commentator, writer, and former national host and producer at CBC Radio Tod Maffin. BC allocated $5M to a marketing budget to do the same.
The shortage of health care workers has a larger impact on the day to day of Canadians than a shortage of tech workers. However we would even define how many tech workers one "needs".
“Canada skilled workers program” are the relevant keywords for searches.
If you can’t find one that fits the work that you do, another option are visas that are non lucrative non working that are based on your investments, their income, including income from rental properties. Own a place in the US? Find a property manager, rent it out, visa secured (assuming monthly/annual income requirements are met).
i dont think theres anything active, since canada has a bit of a glut of software engineers, but the big companies frequently put people who couldnt get an h1b in canada, so there must be some options
I have several US friends who got European citizenship through ancestry. They found a great grandmother or something from "the old country" and by proving their relation to them could get a passport.
That got me to googling around since my grandfather was born in Germany and came to the US when he was 5 (circa 1920). But from what I'm finding it sounds like when he became a US citizen that tie to German citizenship was broken. Also, prior to 1975 the citizenship only passed down through the father - it was my maternal grandfather so it wouldn't pass down, apparently. Well, it was fun to think about the possibilities for a few minutes, anyway.
If you're a doctor or nurse Canada is definitely saying "sure, come on in!" - they're actively recruiting in the US for healthcare workers. But that's because like most other countries they've got a shortage of health care workers. They're not likely to tell us software engineers that we can com on in.
I have quite a bit of family in Germany, and have had several friends move from the US to Europe. Europe absolutely knows that they have an opportunity to capture a ton of talent right now. If you have skills that are in demand, basically any country in the Schengen zone will find a way to get you a visa. For example, if you’re a trans researcher, you will find open arms at academic institutions in Europe.
You could also lie and claim your address as a US address, and then just live in another country. This is obviously illegal, but I’ve met a few people who made it work for a while. But I’m also speaking abstractly on the internet, so maybe I’m just making all this up.
> It's not like people can just decide to move to another country and they will say "sure, come on in!"
Many countries actively try to attract skilled migrants with simple, points-based immigration systems and fast processing times.
Simply having a bachelor's degree, 5+ years of work experience, and fluency in the local language will get you on the fast-track to a permanent working visa in many countries.
There are a few dozen countries that one can buy citizenship. Some require investing in something or starting their own business. Search for "countries that offer citizenship for money". Some places will pay for people to move their under certain conditions and lack of criminal history.
According to an LLM I asked, about 80 countries have a way in for $$$.
I was superprized it was as high as 80, assuming I can beleive the answer. I knew though that the USA is one of them. Also Singapore, since it was big news when the co-founder of Facebook did it.
If you are in Spain on a tourist visa, and apply for the equivalent of a digital nomad visa while in country, you get three years as a temporary resident. At three years, you re-apply for another two years, and after those five years you can apply for permanent residency. 80% of your income must come from outside of Spain. They’ll even take a letter from a US W2 employer as income verification. One example of an exit strategy you can move on almost immediately, depending on your circumstances.
It could be beneficial to if working abroad because the United States is one of the only countries on the planet that taxes earned wages abroad while offering absolutely zero tangible benefits to those who do, perhaps besides the passport itself.
Given much of the free world depends on the US for defense, maybe it's not "zero tangible benefits"?
Yea, it's annoying, though. Under $130k a year you don't pay. So this is a 1%-er problem. And, you still deduct your foreign taxes and just pay the difference. I'm not saying that makes it ok, but you aren't double taxed, you're just taxes as tho you were back in the USA.
The rest of the world pays for US defense through investing in US treasuries, which they are moving away from for obvious reasons. The US isn’t providing defense for free, they are compensated for it by the world buying their debt at favorable yields considering the debt load (~120% of GDP as of this comment).
I don’t really understand the advantage of doing it this way vs having them pay directly.
Re debt loads - does the debt load actually materially affect default risk in this case? It’s not like US bonds are officially rated as high risk, at least. Debt to GDP is one thing but without a comparison to other bonds and their associated debt to GDP and a relationship inferred from that data it doesn’t really say anything in a vacuum. Why would it be done this way instead of just paying directly? As opposed to the more straightforward explanation of US bonds just having a favorable payout to risk ratio vs other options. It just smells like some kind of conspiratorial thinking and I’m not sure if it actually adds up.
Honestly asking by the way, I haven’t seen anyone spell out the theory and it just seems quite hand wavey to me.
I don't know why you got downvoted for just asking a question. I'd be curious too. In some countries it's much easy to become a citizen (give up your previous citizenship) than it is to get permanent residency permission (in which you're still technically a citizen of your previous country)
Article is paywalled, but I'm guessing "record numbers" is still quite low in absolute terms.
But regardless, "self-deportation" isn't a bad thing. At the very least, they may appreciate America more after spending time away from it, and if not, then they'll have found a place to live that's more to their liking. And if it becomes a bona fide trend (which it probably won't), it will help--along with reduced legal and illegal immigration, and the natural tendency for conservatives to out-breed liberals, and the high heritability of political attitudes (40-60%)--to solidify America's conservative majority.
No, you have to consider the non-genetic, environmental factors that also influence the development of political ideology, specifically the households in which children are raised and the schooling and media to which they're exposed, all of which will increasingly become conservative.
because reactionaries lying to themselves that they're "conservative" have such a great track record of coming up with constructive policies </s>. Sorry bro, the actual conservatives are voting D, and there are going to be a whole lot of them based on how much your spite candidate has openly harmed our institutions. If you so desperately want to live in a backwater, you could always just move to one.
I've lately been asking my coworkers if they would have come to the US if it looked like this back when they were first applying.
Not one of them has answered yes.
I moved when Obama was president. I sincerely believed that we were in a post racial world. Imagine my surprise in seeing people proudly flying confederate flags in Austin!
I am still hopeful. While that flag was considered “ok” then, it no longer is anymore, and I rarely see it in the urban areas.
> I sincerely believed that we were in a post racial world.
I grew up in a post-racial world as a "brown" immigrant in a deep red Virginia county in the 1990s. My daughter, meanwhile, developed a strong "brown" identity from her teachers in our deep blue state. I don't blame Obama for it. But there was a definite shift in thinking during his administration where the distinct politics of black democrats--which is highly focused on racial identity for obvious reasons--became generalized to the hispanics and Asians that democrats sought to court. It was a couple of years into the Obama administration that someone called me a “person of color,” something I find deeply offensive.
Flying confederate flags while Obama was president was considered “ok?”
According to polling, yes: https://www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/politics/confederate-flag-pol.... For people who grew up in the 1980s and 1990s in the south, it was a generic symbol of rebellion or regional rivalry. Remember, Dukes of Hazzard, which aired in the 1980s, was a liberal show about southern boys fighting corrupt politicians and greedy businessmen.
Now you can say “hey, maybe you shouldn’t have picked that particular flag as a symbol to mean ‘fuck the Patriots.’” But that doesn’t change the fact that it did happen over a long time period. And it’s hardly unusual for cultural symbols have weird or sinister origins but mean something quite different in present day.
It still is in Trenton, Georgia (whose city flag is the former Georgia Confederate flag). Weird driving through that part of the world...
[flagged]
I wonder what this will do to the US developer salary premium. You could, for reasons I never entirely understood, make so much more money doing the same job in the US than anywhere else. And I don't mean comparing to India or China, but comparable CoL countries in e.g. Europe.
Sure, US is more productive, has bigger tech companies, attracts talent, and not least, their hectocorns are truly making the world a better place with their CRUD apps and REST APIs.
But at these levels of imbalance, already a long time ago I would have expected US companies to move a lot of their software engineering efforts to Europe or India or elsewhere, and it just wasn't happening, despite SE being one of the most remote-able jobs ever.
But now, the trickle of expat workers into the US appears to be drying up, apparently Americans are leaving too. There will be more and more pressure for these companies to hire abroad even for non-monetary reasons (as is already happening) and I fear for my fellow American HNians that they will like paying a fraction of the cost for the same job.
There's also a non-zero number of Canadian engineers in the US. No visa required, just a job acceptance letter for TN status at the border. Minimal language or cultural barrier and educated at competitive colleges. Those workers are going to take their US salaries and experience back to Canada if the US continues to alienate its neighbors. Canada is also building a lot more connections with nations that the US is shunning, like China.
Might be time for a new Blackberry.
I imagine because the other jobs all around SE isn't as outsourcable. Designs and PM in particular. At some point the timezone pain is not worth the cost savings.
On a meta note, this comment section is absolutely littered with flagged and dead comments from fresh accounts. There are certain topics that really bring out the emotions.
> There are certain topics that really bring out the emotions.
Or, based on this thread from yesterday, the fresh accounts are bots and/or disinformation: New accounts on HN more likely to use em-dashes[0].
- [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47152085
https://www.npr.org/2026/02/25/nx-s1-5725354/nurses-emigrate...
Canada is actively recruiting healthcare workers and it's apparently become quite easy to get people to move up. If I were a healthcare worker I wouldn't have to think about it for very long before having the U-Haul loaded up and ready to go.
https://healthcareinfusion.org is actively promoted on social media channels to assist with this, a project of the Canadian commentator, writer, and former national host and producer at CBC Radio Tod Maffin. BC allocated $5M to a marketing budget to do the same.
Is there anything like this for tech workers? Or is that not a sector Canada is trying to recruit in as much?
The shortage of health care workers has a larger impact on the day to day of Canadians than a shortage of tech workers. However we would even define how many tech workers one "needs".
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se...
https://immigration.ca/fast-track-high-demand-occupations/
“Canada skilled workers program” are the relevant keywords for searches.
If you can’t find one that fits the work that you do, another option are visas that are non lucrative non working that are based on your investments, their income, including income from rental properties. Own a place in the US? Find a property manager, rent it out, visa secured (assuming monthly/annual income requirements are met).
i dont think theres anything active, since canada has a bit of a glut of software engineers, but the big companies frequently put people who couldnt get an h1b in canada, so there must be some options
[flagged]
How? It's not like people can just decide to move to another country and they will say "sure, come on in!" right?
Are they getting visas from work or a spouse or something? Surely that does not account for a vast majority of cases?
I have several US friends who got European citizenship through ancestry. They found a great grandmother or something from "the old country" and by proving their relation to them could get a passport.
That got me to googling around since my grandfather was born in Germany and came to the US when he was 5 (circa 1920). But from what I'm finding it sounds like when he became a US citizen that tie to German citizenship was broken. Also, prior to 1975 the citizenship only passed down through the father - it was my maternal grandfather so it wouldn't pass down, apparently. Well, it was fun to think about the possibilities for a few minutes, anyway.
If you're a doctor or nurse Canada is definitely saying "sure, come on in!" - they're actively recruiting in the US for healthcare workers. But that's because like most other countries they've got a shortage of health care workers. They're not likely to tell us software engineers that we can com on in.
I have quite a bit of family in Germany, and have had several friends move from the US to Europe. Europe absolutely knows that they have an opportunity to capture a ton of talent right now. If you have skills that are in demand, basically any country in the Schengen zone will find a way to get you a visa. For example, if you’re a trans researcher, you will find open arms at academic institutions in Europe.
You could also lie and claim your address as a US address, and then just live in another country. This is obviously illegal, but I’ve met a few people who made it work for a while. But I’m also speaking abstractly on the internet, so maybe I’m just making all this up.
Almost without exception, any US citizen can perform self-employed work in Netherlands via the DAFT program.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT>
This can lead to eventual citizenship, but you have to follow the rules (e.g. monetary requirements, which are actually quite low).
> It's not like people can just decide to move to another country and they will say "sure, come on in!"
Many countries actively try to attract skilled migrants with simple, points-based immigration systems and fast processing times.
Simply having a bachelor's degree, 5+ years of work experience, and fluency in the local language will get you on the fast-track to a permanent working visa in many countries.
There are a few dozen countries that one can buy citizenship. Some require investing in something or starting their own business. Search for "countries that offer citizenship for money". Some places will pay for people to move their under certain conditions and lack of criminal history.
“Golden visa” and “citizenship by investment” are good search terms to use.
According to an LLM I asked, about 80 countries have a way in for $$$.
I was superprized it was as high as 80, assuming I can beleive the answer. I knew though that the USA is one of them. Also Singapore, since it was big news when the co-founder of Facebook did it.
Maybe not North America and Europe, but with proof of income most countries most definitely will tell you sure, come on in!
One option is dual citizenship, which varies by country. I know about half a dozen people who are in various stages of applying.
Destination Thailand Visa is comically easy to get if you have ~$20K in savings
If you are in Spain on a tourist visa, and apply for the equivalent of a digital nomad visa while in country, you get three years as a temporary resident. At three years, you re-apply for another two years, and after those five years you can apply for permanent residency. 80% of your income must come from outside of Spain. They’ll even take a letter from a US W2 employer as income verification. One example of an exit strategy you can move on almost immediately, depending on your circumstances.
Resources:
https://relocateme.substack.com/
https://old.reddit.com/r/AmerExit/comments/urwlbr/a_guide_fo...
https://old.reddit.com/user/Shufflebuzz/comments/1iv4dud/shu...
https://www.helpmeleave.us/
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se... (Canadian citizenship by descent)
https://lookerstudio.google.com/reporting/b58914ce-b98d-4330... from https://pancakeonastick.substack.com/ (Digital Nomad Visa Map)
Are they giving up citizenship as well?
It could be beneficial to if working abroad because the United States is one of the only countries on the planet that taxes earned wages abroad while offering absolutely zero tangible benefits to those who do, perhaps besides the passport itself.
Given much of the free world depends on the US for defense, maybe it's not "zero tangible benefits"?
Yea, it's annoying, though. Under $130k a year you don't pay. So this is a 1%-er problem. And, you still deduct your foreign taxes and just pay the difference. I'm not saying that makes it ok, but you aren't double taxed, you're just taxes as tho you were back in the USA.
The hassle of being forced to pay Intuit a dime in order to pay taxes is enough to make a problem for anyone.
Edit: grammar
The rest of the world pays for US defense through investing in US treasuries, which they are moving away from for obvious reasons. The US isn’t providing defense for free, they are compensated for it by the world buying their debt at favorable yields considering the debt load (~120% of GDP as of this comment).
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEGDQ188S
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEBTN
I don’t really understand the advantage of doing it this way vs having them pay directly.
Re debt loads - does the debt load actually materially affect default risk in this case? It’s not like US bonds are officially rated as high risk, at least. Debt to GDP is one thing but without a comparison to other bonds and their associated debt to GDP and a relationship inferred from that data it doesn’t really say anything in a vacuum. Why would it be done this way instead of just paying directly? As opposed to the more straightforward explanation of US bonds just having a favorable payout to risk ratio vs other options. It just smells like some kind of conspiratorial thinking and I’m not sure if it actually adds up.
Honestly asking by the way, I haven’t seen anyone spell out the theory and it just seems quite hand wavey to me.
I don't know why you got downvoted for just asking a question. I'd be curious too. In some countries it's much easy to become a citizen (give up your previous citizenship) than it is to get permanent residency permission (in which you're still technically a citizen of your previous country)
[flagged]
Just out of curiosity. The companies let you work remotely from Europe and preserve remote work?
[flagged]
Article is paywalled, but I'm guessing "record numbers" is still quite low in absolute terms.
But regardless, "self-deportation" isn't a bad thing. At the very least, they may appreciate America more after spending time away from it, and if not, then they'll have found a place to live that's more to their liking. And if it becomes a bona fide trend (which it probably won't), it will help--along with reduced legal and illegal immigration, and the natural tendency for conservatives to out-breed liberals, and the high heritability of political attitudes (40-60%)--to solidify America's conservative majority.
Doesn't 50% heritability mean that it's a coin flip in a 2 party country? So basically no heritability?
> coin flip
No, you have to consider the non-genetic, environmental factors that also influence the development of political ideology, specifically the households in which children are raised and the schooling and media to which they're exposed, all of which will increasingly become conservative.
That does not explain how mathematically your statement of 40%-60% heritability represents anything other than a coin flip.
because reactionaries lying to themselves that they're "conservative" have such a great track record of coming up with constructive policies </s>. Sorry bro, the actual conservatives are voting D, and there are going to be a whole lot of them based on how much your spite candidate has openly harmed our institutions. If you so desperately want to live in a backwater, you could always just move to one.