87 comments

  • adam_gyroscope an hour ago

    My favorite twitter account was “in mice” which just posted stories like this and added “in mice”. Which applies here.

  • reliablereason 4 hours ago

    > It is given as a nasal spray and leaves white blood cells in our lungs – called macrophages – on "amber alert" and ready to jump into action no matter what infection tries to get in.

    Right and if that is such a good thing why are those macrophages not always on alert. I smell longterm cancer or similar.

    • bob001 3 hours ago

      > I smell longterm cancer or similar.

      Or simply autoimmune reactions which can be devastating.

      • alphazard 3 hours ago

        Yeah this is more likely than cancer, and is a potential side effect of anything that stimulates the immune system, including real antigen-carrying vaccines.

        • rustyhancock 15 minutes ago

          I'm less certain, many if not most lung cancers seems to follow chronic inflammation in the lungs.

          The classic example is asbestos related mesothelioma. "Frustrated phagocytosis" is the name for the way macrophages become locked in a never ending spiral of eat, die poison loops around the asbestos.

          Do we really want macrophages to go into high gear? Will we make sure no one who has it has been exposed every to any asbestos?

          What about other triggers of frustrated phagocytosis? People who commute by subway (tiny metal particles).

          The point isn't to say that this is a bad idea necessarily but that I'm not sure this sounds so much safer than regular vaccination.

      • nrds 3 hours ago

        Indeed, I wonder whether the vaccine content matters at all in current vaccines. We could probably just inject people with the adjuvants and get the same result.

        • rustyhancock 9 minutes ago

          The content clearly matters, and efficacy is tracked (this year it was poor because the eventual pandemic flu strain was a H3N2 virus which mutate rapidly)[0]. This was despite WHO updating the recommendations at the last hour in April/May 2025.

          But critically this isn't as important as people think. The primary goal of the flu vaccination is of course to temper spread of the main viruses that season. But it's also to build people's immune library of exposure to flu viruses.

          Recall that the 1918 "Spanish" flu was so terrible not because it was intrinsically a worse virus but that it was one which many younger generations had not been previously exposed.

          COVID has meant that many younger generations again has a much smaller library of past exposure.

          [0] https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/influenza-vaccines/estimated-effe...

        • alphazard 2 hours ago

          > I wonder whether the vaccine content matters at all in current vaccines.

          The target does matter, that is the basis for the whole technology, and the thing most predictive of efficacy. That's why the flu shots often don't work and the shots for smallpox and measles do, the flu is a more rapidly mutating target.

          Going crazy with the adjuvants was popular during the pandemic when it became clear that the virus had mutated (the target protein), but no one wanted to do R&D for a new target. Counting white blood cells became a proxy for efficacy, and you can manipulate that stat with adjuvants.

        • pavel_lishin 3 hours ago

          Why not just eat a handful of dirt?

    • LeoPanthera 3 hours ago

      If only Stanford University had asked you first!

      • bob001 3 hours ago

        If only you had read the article.

        >There may also be consequences to dialling up the immune system beyond its normal state – raising questions of immune disorders.

        > Jonathan Ball, professor of molecular virology at the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine, said the work was undeniably "exciting" but cautioned "we have to ensure that keeping the body on 'high alert' doesn't lead to friendly fire, where a hyper-ready immune system accidentally triggers unwelcome side effects".

        > The research team in the US does not think the immune system should be permanently dialled up and think such a vaccine should be used to compliment rather than replace current vaccines.

        • mattmaroon an hour ago

          They are behind a paywall for Americans now.

    • gdevenyi 2 hours ago

      Autoimmune disorders

    • marcosdumay 2 hours ago

      The most likely, because it consumes energy and respiratory diseases take almost nobody from the gene pool.

      What has no relation at all to what possible side effects this could have.

    • shiroiuma 3 hours ago

      This reminds me of an episode in Star Trek: TNG's 2nd season, where Pulaski and Data visit a colony doing genetic engineering experiments on kids which created a super-virus.

    • b65e8bee43c2ed0 3 hours ago

      there are many, many things our bodies could do (or not do) to greatly improve our health at no cost whatsoever.

      • bob001 3 hours ago

        That we think have no cost. The massive failure rate of drug trials and some famous cases of issues discovered only after wide scale deployment indicates we're not that great at knowing ahead of time.

        The body is like legacy spaghetti code written by hundreds of teams of outsourced engineers. It mostly works. Just never remove any commented out lines or it may break.

        • cortesoft 7 minutes ago

          Our body was vibe coded

      • glial 3 hours ago

        While possible, there are also many bodily processes that are finely tuned through eons of evolution, and destabilizing pressure leads to disorder. Sometimes it's difficult to know which are which (or at least I don't know).

      • nradov 2 hours ago

        Which things?

        • b65e8bee43c2ed0 2 hours ago

          the most straightforward example off the top of my head would be that hair follicles have no conceivable reason to react to testosterone. removing DHT receptors from them would have no adverse effect whatsoever.

          • XorNot 40 minutes ago

            We can also live just fine without an appendix. Literally the only thing the organ can do is suddenly develop a severe infection and kill you without surgery which has only become reliably available in the past 100 years or so. (Blah blah bacterial reservoir or whatever: that's of evidently very low value compared to sudden and painful death)

            There's also no reason we shouldn't be immune to funnel web poison: cats make an enzyme which deactivates it, whereas primates don't.

          • Aeglaecia 33 minutes ago

            have you read the story of dr. adrian thompson's ai generated fpga ? the story goes that removing seemingly redundant components caused the circuit to fail because of second order effects. for that reason, i try to avoid sweeping statements like 'no effect whatsoever' when it comes to playing god

    • amelius 4 hours ago

      Or antimicrobial resistance.

  • nkmnz 3 hours ago

    We shouldn't call it a vaccine when, in fact, it's just a line of cocaine for macrophages.

    • arghwhat 3 hours ago

      We also shouldn't call it "vegan leather" when it is in fact just plastic.

      Naming departs from technical accuracy when adopted by the masses, as they retrofit their common understanding. Wouldn't be too surprised if "vaccine" ends up covering other strong defense-boosters.

      • jjtheblunt 2 hours ago

        > "vegan leather" when it is in fact just plastic.

        https://knowingfabric.com/mushroom-leather-mycelium-sustaina...

        is pretty neat

        • speedbird 12 minutes ago

          Interesting topic, offensive website. Back to the story …

      • stouset an hour ago

        I found it funny because the opposite direction, people accused Tesla of naming “autopilot” misleadingly, because it gave them the impression of fully unattended self-driving.

        In aviation, autopilot features were until recently (and still for GA pilots) essentially just cruise control: maintain this speed and heading, maintain this climb rate and heading, maintain this bank angle, etc.

        • zoky an hour ago

          Well, okay, but that’s like 95% of flying.

          • loloquwowndueo 44 minutes ago

            It’s the other 5% that takes 90% of effort :)

            • nobodyandproud 34 minutes ago

              Though by the 0.1% highly qualified and extensively trained, so that the chances of misunderstanding by a pilot is like 0.00001% or less.

      • nkmnz 2 hours ago

        Wouldn't be too surprised, either - but I still think there's merit in using words in a more precise manner than the marketing department would like to do.

      • wvbdmp 3 hours ago

        I mean the word “vaccine” literally specifically references cow pox, so it’s already broadened. No reason not to go up another level.

      • Bluescreenbuddy 2 hours ago

        Mushroom leather says hello

      • poszlem 3 hours ago

        Yes, but in this case the name is likely to actually reduce the adoption not increase it.

  • CyanLite2 2 hours ago

    Isn't this how "I Am Legend" started?

  • midnightdiesel 3 hours ago

    I wonder how long before this gets defunded too?

  • rolph 3 hours ago
  • ottah 2 hours ago

    This sounds like a great way to create an autoimmune disease.

    • Spivak 35 minutes ago

      That's a good chunk of immunotherapy, still super useful.

  • bobomonkey 3 hours ago

    Even if it worked perfectly, I would be worried that an unexercised immune system would turn on me.

  • botusaurus 4 hours ago

    why do they call it a vaccine, its nothing like that...

    there's probably a reason evolution didnt put the immune system on permanent "amber alert" as they call it in the article

    • amelius 4 hours ago

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_alert

      Amber alert means something different than the author thinks ...

      • kazinator 3 hours ago

        They wanted "red alert".

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Alert

        This is just an idiom for denoting a high alert state.

        • RupertSalt 11 minutes ago

          No, "Red Alert" is called when there is an attack imminent, incoming weapons detected, enemies sighted.

          So a macrophage on "red alert" would be reacting to an active infection or disease.

      • RupertSalt 3 hours ago

        Perhaps "Defcon 02" would be better understood?

    • Angostura 4 hours ago

      > The research team in the US does not think the immune system should be permanently dialled up and think such a vaccine should be used to compliment rather than replace current vaccines

    • mattmaroon an hour ago

      Isn’t Amber alert a missing child? Wouldn’t you say like DEFCON three or something?

      • RupertSalt 4 minutes ago

        This article is from the UK, so it's more like: evacuate the children, Keep Calm and Carry On, but fight them on the beaches.

    • kojacklives 4 hours ago

      True though there is the theory that it was unnecessary for the immune system to regulate itself in some ways because we were full of parasites.

    • giarc 4 hours ago

      >The effect lasted for around three months in animal experiments.

      It would just be temporary, but there is likely trade offs.

    • renewiltord 4 hours ago

      One of the things I do worry about is glasses. Is there a reason why we correct vision? There's probably a reason evolution made some of us see the world in a blur. Likewise with therapy - maybe killing yourself is like cell apoptosis. Many body cells are supposed to choose to die when they no longer function well. It's a good thing. That's often the problem with scientists: "They were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop to think if they should".

      Until we find out why nature made it so some of us kill ourselves maybe we shouldn't fuck with it? Remember Chesterton's Fence.

      • dekhn 3 hours ago

        The reason we correct vision is for safety and convenience. My guess is that we have a distribution of vision capabilities due to the inability of complex biological systems to ensure that the precise geometry of the cornea and lens is subject to statistical variations that can't be controlled. There are probably also tradeoffs associated with near and far vision.

        Now, you could have restated this in a better way IMHO. I'd put it like this: are there any evolutionary advantages to having worse-than-average near or far vision? For example, we can imagine that people who had extremely good long range vision would be more successful in hunting, and perhaps- this is where I'm speculating heavily- having poor long vision is compensated by having better detail vision for fine tool work. However, what I've learned after many years is that attempting to perceive the true nature of the evolutionary fitness function is challenging.

        As for your bit about suicide: please be a lot more thoughtful in speculating about suicide.

      • nradov 2 hours ago

        Although we don't have a lot of hard evidence, there is reason to suspect that the high rate of poor vision in modern young people is more environmental than an evolutionary flaw. We spend too much time indoors staring at nearby objects under dim artificial light. People who spend most of their time outdoors are less likely to need vision correction, although there could be trade-offs later in life as the damage caused by natural UV light accumulates.

      • akersten 3 hours ago

        I had to upvote this just because it's such an incredible take, it really made my day even if I think it's complete horseradish

        • mikestorrent 3 hours ago

          C'mon now, it's probably one of the better trolls I've seen today.

      • boothby 3 hours ago

        Poe's law and all, but the first two responses to this are missing some sarcasm that looks pretty overwrought to me.

      • lanyard-textile 4 hours ago

        Really...?? :)

        "Sorry son, you can't get these glasses. It's for the betterment of humanity."

      • thomquaid 4 hours ago

        This isnt a vaccine against suicide.

      • krapp 4 hours ago

        You're making the mistake of thinking of "nature" and "evolution" as intelligent, reasoning systems, and that every evolutionary adaptation exists for a purpose. Evolution doesn't do things for "reasons," things just happen.

        Remember that cephalopod brains are donut shaped and their digestive tracts go right through the middle and if they eat something too big they'll have an anyeurism. Pandas and koalas evolved special diets that serve no evolutionary purpose and both would be extinct if humans didn't find them cute. Sloths have to climb down from trees to take a shit. Female hyenas give birth through a pseudopenis that often ruptures and kils them. Horses can't vomit and if they swallow something toxic, their stomach ruptures. Also their hooves and ankles are extremely weak and not well designed to support their weight. Numerous species like the fiddler crab and peacock have evolved sexual displays that are actively harmful to their survival.

        And as for humans, our spines are not well adapted for walking upright, our retinas are wired backwards, and we still have a useless appendix and wisdom teeth. The recurrent laryngeal nerve has an unnecessarily long and complex route branching off the vagus and travelling around the aorta before running back up to the larynx.

        Evolution is not smart. Evolution isn't even stupid. It isn't trying to keep you alive and it isn't even capable of caring if you die. Yes we should absolutely fuck with it, because we don't want to live in a world where we still die of sepsis and parasites and plagues because "we don't want to mess with evolution."

        • dabinat 3 hours ago

          Yes, there’s a misconception that evolution leads to optimization and efficiency. It really just leads to traits that are “good enough”.

          • dekhn an hour ago

            Evolution has lead to optimization and efficiency many times. It rarely trends to maximization or the largest possible efficiency, since those conflict with "good enough". Protein structure and function is a common example.

            • fc417fc802 an hour ago

              > It rarely trends to maximization or the largest possible efficiency, since those conflict with "good enough".

              Sometimes things get trapped in a local minima. Particularly when a seemingly inconsequential detail at a much much earlier stage becomes a dependency of lots of downstream stuff, but then it turns out that this just so happens to conflict with a better option in the here and now.

              More commonly, the "perfect" solution is extremely brittle while the (supposedly) "good enough" solution is incredibly robust to all sorts of environmentally inflicted bullshit. In other words, most of the time evolution is practical while the humans criticizing the outcome are ignorant idealists.

        • protocolture 3 hours ago

          >koalas evolved special diets that serve no evolutionary purpose

          Koalas biggest problem is us? Like they seem perfectly adapted to their niche. Eat lots of leaves that nobody else is adapted to use as food, and once a year, run very fast to outpace the bushfire that your principle food source needs to reproduce.

        • mat_b 3 hours ago

          FYI horses are the product of domestication.

          • shiroiuma 3 hours ago

            Are their hooves, though? The fossil record clearly shows a progression in their ancestors from having feet with many toes to the single "toe" they have now.

          • krapp 3 hours ago

            Fair enough.

            In my defense, domestication is still technically an evolutionary process.

        • renewiltord 30 minutes ago

          Huh, that's really interesting. But I suppose it doesn't apply to the amber alert thing. In that situation, evolution probably was an intelligent reasoning system that existed for a purpose and we must be subverting it (a bad idea). There's always an exception to every rule, I suppose.

          • krapp 6 minutes ago

            Evolution is never an intelligent reasoning system, any more than gravity ever is.

        • shiroiuma 3 hours ago

          >we still have a useless appendix

          This was believed in the 20th century, but we now believe the appendix is actually useful, and is basically a fail-safe in case the intestinal flora are wiped out; some will survive in the appendix and repopulate the intestine.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appendix_(anatomy)#Functions

    • Larrikin 4 hours ago

      Are you wildly speculating or do you have a source with research backing up your claim evolution got it perfectly right?

      I personally look forward to every innovation that potentially improves our baseline.

      • aaa_aaa 4 hours ago

        I bet my money on the immune system any day.

        • thomquaid 4 hours ago

          Hard to beat a half million years of evolution with a nasal spray from last year.

        • javascriptfan69 3 hours ago

          You don't have to bet money on it.

          You can just stop taking antibiotics and vaccines.

          Those are way more interesting odds.

          • wizzwizz4 2 hours ago

            (Most) vaccines work by letting your immune system know to watch out for particular things. That's an information advantage. Likewise, antibiotics are chemical agents that the body lacks the genes to synthesise. Betting that the immune system's parameters are generally well-calibrated is entirely compatible with taking antibiotics and vaccines, where indicated.

            You wouldn't want to get vaccinated for smallpox in the middle of a plague epidemic, because that would waste your immune system's resources on an extinct-in-the-wild disease, when it really needs to be gearing up to stop the plague killing you.

      • dekhn 3 hours ago

        They didn't claim evolution got it perfectly right.

        They speculated that immune systems evolved to avoid being continuously on alert. And that's exactly right- our immune systems have an extremely complicated system for detecting foreign invaders that is tightly regulated. And a failure to regulate that is often associated with autoimmune disorders, which remain very poorly understood.

        I've studied biology from the perspective of engineering better drugs for decades now and I can say with confidence that I simply don't understand how the immune system works, and I don't think anybody else really does either (compared to, say, the heart, or many biological systems like protein production). We have identified many players, and observed a great deal of actions, and have speculative models for many of the underlying processes, but we don't really have an "understanding" of the immune system. I skimmed this paper and frankly, it has a very long way to go before people are convinced to try this in human clinical trials.

        I look forward to innovations, but to a first order approximation: evolution found model parameters that exceed the best human science and engineering.

  • hkt 4 hours ago

    I'll be fascinated to see how this plays out for people with autoimmune conditions - generalised heightening of the immune system feels like it would be dangerous for those people. Are any immunologists lurking who might be able to speculate?

    • PaulKeeble 3 hours ago

      Its often completely normal to use healthy controls in a trial like this, healthy people not getting ill is your target audience and the long term stage 3 will be against healthy people. So many drugs are not tested against obvious groups that might produce a poor result to make the findings as strong as possible but it means in a lot of cases chronically ill people are making judgements on no data at all.

    • senkora 3 hours ago

      It seems like it could also be quite dangerous for those with food allergies.

      • kazinator 3 hours ago

        But then it is mentioned that the treatment "also seemed to reduce the response to house dust mite allergens".

        The treatment also supposedly activates macrophages in the lungs (and thus not elsewhere). Only some small particles and vapor droplets from foods go into the lungs.

  • King-Aaron 2 hours ago

    US: Quits the WHO, ends funding of medical research

    The world: Announces cures for half a dozen cancers, and the common cold

    • jdauriemma 2 hours ago

      This team is at Stanford, unless I’m reading the article incorrectly. Still awful that the US pulled out of WHO.

      • King-Aaron 2 hours ago

        Ah yep, I read the story elsewhere earlier that insinuated it was a team outside of the US