What if I just enjoy how I work at the moment and don't really care about this stuff? Why do I _have_ to give it a go? Why don't LLM evangelists accept this as an option?
Choosing not to use AI agents is maybe the only tool position I feel I've had to defend or justify in over a decade of doing this, and it's so bizarre to me. It almost reeks of insecurity from the Agent Evangelists and I wonder if all the "fear" and "uncertainty" they talk about is just projecting.
What? Was anyone forcing people off vim when vs code dropped? No, go use vim. Same here. Why are you acting persecuted when you can literally do nothing.
Nobody pushed you to use git when you were comfortable with svn? Nobody pushed you to use Docker when you were comfortable running bare metal? Nobody pushed you to write unit tests when you were comfortable not? Nobody pushed you to use CSS for layout when you were happy using tables?
Some of those are before your time, but: The only time you don't get pushed to use new technologies is when a) nothing is changing and the industry is stagnant, or b) you're ahead of the curve and already exploring the new technology on your own.
Otherwise, everyone always gets pushed into using the new thing when it's good.
The engineers using svn were the ones who were pushing for git - I was the one saying "we can't, because none of the conversion tools competently preserve branch history, and it's even worse on repos that started in CVS". Noone responsible for repos was pushing for git, it was end-users pulling for it (and shutting up when they learned how much work it would cause :-) That looked nothing like the drug-dealer-esque LLM push I've been seeing for the last 3 years.
(Likewise with CVS to svn: "you can rename files now? and branches aren't horrible? Great, how fast can we switch?" - no "pushing" because literally everyone could see how much better it was in very concrete cases, it was mostly just a matter of resource allocation.)
In the context of this discussion, it feels more like ipv6 :-)
My own experiences with LLMs have shown them to be entertaining, and often entertainingly wrong. I haven't been working on a project I've felt comfortable handing over to Microsoft for them to train Copilot on, and the testimonials I've seen from people who've used it are mixed enough that I don't feel like it's worth the drawbacks to take that risk.
And...sure, some people have to be pushed into using new things. Some people still like using vim to write C code, and that's fine for them. But I never saw this level of resistance to git, Docker, unit tests, or CSS.
The resistance to those things was less angry, but it was there. giveupandusetables dot com no longer exists, but you can find plenty of chin-stroking blog posts about it. It was a big argument in the late aughts!
I'm the same as you: I don't really care about this stuff. Given what we know about the start of these AI endeavors (torrenting/scraping the whole internet and training on it) then running their software seems like a liability. Is it pasting code verbatim that falls under an incompatible license? Is it training on my codebase? Why would I want to depend on this very compute intensive, cloud hosted tool?
At least with other advancements in our field like git, Docker, etc., they're made with a local-first mindset (e.g. your git repos can live anywhere and same with your docker images)
I think the standing assumption is that most of us take pride and enjoyment in being good at our craft - and some of us even want to be great at it. That means understanding all the tools at our disposal - to see if they are useful or not.
If that is not interesting to you I think that’s a totally fine choice, but you’re getting a lot of pushback from people who have made a different choice.
It almost reeks of insecurity from the Agent Evangelists and I wonder if all the "fear" and "uncertainty" they talk about is just projecting.
That's probably true on some level for some evangelists, but it's probably just as true that some people who are a bit scared of AI read every positive post about it as some sort of propaganda trying to change their mind.
Sometimes it's fine to just let people talk about things they like. You don't know what camp someone is in so it's good to read their post as charitably as possible.
I've seen a lot of developer tooling change and evolve over the course of my career, but with AI it was the first time I've seen people in non-technical managerial positions trying to force the engineers to make a switch. It was extremely bizarre.
Your work will eventually be driven by the same economics as the industry as a whole, project estimates 12 months from now will be done based on how long it takes a dev with full LLM backing, not your current speed. Then you need to be prepared to work at that speed.
You don’t have to, of course, but you probably will if you want to be competitive in a professional capacity in the future.
Not doing so seems a bit like a farmer ploughing fields and harvesting crops by hand while seeking to remain competitive with modern machinery, surely?
It remains to be seen whether these analogies will still hold in the longer term, or whether agentic code will come to be seen as cheap but buggy and mediocre.
> “What about security?” [..] “What about performance?” [..] “What about accessibility?”
TBH i'm fine with AI but my main concern isn't any of these issues (even if they suck now -though supposedly Claude Code doesn't- they can get better in the future).
My main concern, by far, is control and availability. I do not mind using some AI, but i do mind using AI that runs on someone else's computer and isn't under my control - and i can, or have a chance at, understanding/tweaking/fixing (so all my AI use is done via inference engines that are written in C++ that i compiled myself and are running on my PC).
Of course the same logic applies to anything where that makes sense (i.e. all my software runs locally, the only things i use online/cloud versions for are things which are inherently about networking - e.g. chat, forums, etc, but even then i use -say- a desktop-based email client instead of webmail).
Absolutely. I'm gonna go full agentic coding the day I can do it with open-weight models on my machine. Until then feeding someone else's models with more data on how to replace me in particular sounds insane to me.
I did not suggest that; however, the law is clear. If I use my knowledge to produce code, under a specific license, then you take that code, and reproduce it without the license, you have broken the law.
You can twist this around as much as you like but there are several studies showing that LLMs and and will happily reproduce content from their training data.
> If I use my knowledge to produce code, under a specific license, then you take that code, and reproduce it without the license, you have broken the law.
Correct. But if read your code, produce a detailed specification of that code, and then give that code to another team (that has never seen your code) and they create a similar product then they haven't broken the law.
LLMs reproducing exact content from their training data is symptom of
overfitting and is an error that needs correcting. Memorizing specific training data means that it is not generalizing enough.
And comes with a price tag paid to people who neither own nor generated that content. You don't think that shifts the ethical boundaries _significantly_?
I don't. The general trend is that, in US rulings, courts have found that if the material was obtained legally, then training can be fair use. My understanding is that getting LLMs to regurgitate anything significant requires very specific prompting, in general.
I would very much like someone to give me the magic reproduction triple: a model trained on your code, a prompt you gave it to produce a program, and its output showing copyright infringement on the training material used. Specific examples are useful; my hypothesis is that this won't be possible using a "normal" prompt that's in general use, but rather a prompt containing a lot of directly quoted content from the training material, that then asks for more of the same. This was a problem for the NYT when they claimed OpenAI reproduced the content of their articles...they achieved this by prompting with large, unmodified sections of the article and then the LLM would spit out a handful of sentences. In their briefing to the court, they neglected to include their prompts for this reason. I think this is significant because it relates to what is really happening, rather than what people imagine is happening.
But I guess we'll get to see from the NYT trial, since OpenAI is retaining all user prompts and outputs and providing them to the NYT to sift through. So the ground-truth exists, I'm sure they'll be excited to cite all the cases where people were circumventing their paywall with OpenAI.
In a prior job, I had to scan a 2M+ line codebase for software license violations to support the sale of a unit to another corporation. One class of violation was using SO snippets, because they are licensed under CC and not compatible with the distribution model the new company was planning. Many weeks of work to track them all down.
Stackoverflow code has a license (not per post, but a blanket one depending on which year - https://stackoverflow.com/help/licensing it's mostly CC BY-SA.) I've written corporate policies that emphasize that you can learn from SO answers, but (as you point out) they basically never fit exactly - and you should include a link to the original so when the next Ubuntu LTS breaks your clever hack, we can see if someone has already posted a fix :-)
> I see a lot of my fellow developers burying their heads in the sand, refusing to acknowledge the truth in front of their eyes, and it breaks my heart because a lot of us are scared, confused, or uncertain, and not enough of us are talking honestly about it.
Imagine if we had to suffer these posts, day in and day out, when React or Kubernetes or any other piece of technology got released. This kind of proselyting that is the very reason there is tribalism with AI.
I don't want to use it, just like I don't want to use many technologies that got released, while I have adopted others. Can we please move on, or do we have to suffer this kind of moaning until everybody has converted to the new religion?
Never in my 20 years in this career have I seen such maniacal obsession as it has been over the past few years, the never-ending hype that have transformed this forum into a place I do not recognise, into a career I don't recognise, where people you used to respect [1] have gone into a psychosis and dream of ferrets, and if you dare being skeptical about any of it, you are bombarded with "I used to dislike AI, now I have seen the light and if you haven't I'm sorry for you. Please reconsider." stories like this one.
Jesus, live and let live. Stop trying to make AI a religion. It's posts like this one that create the sort of tribalism they rail against, into a battle between the "enlightened few" versus the silly Luddites.
You of course don't have to use AI. Your core point is correct: the world around you is changing quickly, and in unpredictable ways. And that's why it's dangerous to ignore: if you've developed a way that worked in the world 10 years ago, there's a risk it won't play the same way in the world of 2030. So this is time-frame to prepare for whatever that change will be.
For some people, that's picking up the tool and trying to figure out what its good for (if anything) and how it works.
The author of that post Nolan is a pretty interesting guy and deep in the web tech stack. He’s really one of the last people I’d call "tribal", especially since you mention React. This guy hand-writes his web components and files bug reports to browsers and writes his own memory leak detection lib and so on.
If such a guy is slowly dipping his toes into AI and comes to the conclusion he just posted, you should take a step back and consider your position.
I really don't care what authority he's arguing from. The "just try it" pitch here is fundamentally a tribalist argument: tribes don't want another tribe to exist that's viewed as threatening to them.
Trying a new technology seems like what engineers do (since they have to leverage technology to solve real problems, having more tools to choose from can be good). I'm surprised it rings as tribalist.
Honestly that's what makes this all the more dangerous. He's trying to have his cake and eat it too: accept all of the hype and all of the propaganda, but then couch it in the rhetoric of "oh I'm so concerned I can remain in a sort of moderate & empathetic position and not fall prey to tribalism and flame wars."
There's no both-sides-ing of genAI. This is an issue akin to street narcotics, mass weapons of war, or forever chemicals. You're either on the side of heavy regulation or outright bans, or you're on the side of tech politics which are directly harmful to humanity. The OP is not a thoughtful moderate because that's not how any of this works.
I don't think you understand how much things are about to change in a relatively short time. A lot of people are rightfully confused and concerned.
Many people are seeing this as an existential moment requiring careful navigation and planning, not just another language or browser or text editor war.
This is exactly my position. Landscape-changing technology is impossible to get away from, because it follows you. It's like a local business owner in 1998 telling me they didn't care about the stupid "internet" thing, and then the internet blew away their business within 10 years. Similar story with the PC: folks didn't get the option to just "opt out" of a digital office because they liked typewriters and paper. Cell phones were this way also, and while many people post about how they hate their phones and needs to quit using it so much, pretty much everyone admits you can't live in society without one because they have pervaded so many interactions.
So that's how I think AI will be seen in 20 years: like the PC, the internet, and mobile phones. Tech that shapes society, for better or worse.
where are the websites that are lightning fast, where speed and features and ads have been magically optimized by ai, and things feel fast like 2001 google.com fast
We are still massively lacking in software. We're not at the stage of making websites faster, we're at the stage of making more of them. We haven't come close to hitting the point where we have enough software and now the job is to refine it.
AI has pushed me to arrive at an epiphany: new technology is good if it helps me spend more time doing things that I enjoy doing; it's bad if it doesn't; it's worse if I end up spending more time doing things that I don't enjoy.
AI has increased the sheer volume of code we are producing per hour (and probably also the amount of energy spent per unit of code). But, it hasn't spared me or anyone I know the cost of testing, reviewing or refining that code.
Speaking for myself, writing code was always the most fun part of the job. I get a dopamine hit when CI is green, sure, but my heart sinks a bit every time I'm assigned to review a 5K+ loc mountain of AI slop (and it has been happening a lot lately).
I agree. I’m using copilot more and more as it gets better and better, but it is getting better at the fun stuff and leaves me to do the less fun stuff. I’m in a role where I need to review code across multiple teams, and as their output is increasing, so is my review load. The biggest issue is that the people who lean on copilot the most are the least skilled at writing/reviewing code in the first place, so not only do I have more to review, it’s worse(1).
My medium term concern is that the tasks where we want a human in the loop (esp review) are predicated on skills that come from actually writing code. If LLMs stagnate, in a generation we’re not going to have anyone who grew up writing code.
1: not that LLMs write objectively bad code, but it doesn’t follow our standards and patterns. Like, we have an internal library of common UI components and CSS, but the LLM will pump out custom stuff.
There is some stuff that we can pick up with analysers and fail the build, but a lot of things just come down to taste and corporate knowledge.
I've been using it to do big refactors are large changes that I would simply avoid because, before, the benefits don't outweigh the costs of the doing it. I think half the problem people have is just using AI for the wrong stuff.
I don't see why it doesn't help with reviewing, testing, or refining code either. One of the advantages I find is that an LLM "thinks" differently from me so it'll find issues that I don't notice or maybe even know about. I've certainly had it develop entire test harnesses to ensure pre/post refactoring results are the same.
That said, I have "held it wrong" and had it done the fun stuff instead and that felt bad. So I just changed how I used it.
I read a lot of AI generated code these days. It makes really bad mistakes (even when the nature of the change is a refactor). I've tried out a few different tools and methodologies, but I haven't escaped the need to babysit the "agent." If I stepped aside, it would create more work for me and others on the backend of our workflow.
I read anecdotes of teams that push through AI-driven changes as fast as possible with awe. Surely their AIs are no more capable than the ones I'm familiar with.
I read all the code and it sometimes make mistakes -- but I wouldn't call it really bad. And often merely pointing it out will get a correction. Sometimes it is funny. It's not perfect but nothing is perfect. I have noticed that the quality seems to be improving.
I still think whether you see sustained value or not depends a lot on your workflow -- in what you choose to do or decide and what you let it choose to do or decide.
I agree with you that this idea of just pushing out AI code -- especially code written from scratch -- by an AI sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. But honestly a lot of organizations let a lot of crappy code into their code-base long before AI came long. Those organizations are just doing the same now at scale. AI didn't change the quality, it just changed the quantity.
> The models don’t have to get better, the costs don’t have to come down (heck, they could even double and it’d still be worth it)
What worries me about this is that it might end up putting up a barrier for those that can't afford it. What do things look like if models cost $1000 or more a month and genuinely provide 3x productivity improvements?
If they're paying you, they can afford it. Also, even if running large teams of coding agents becomes practical, you don't necessarily need more than one or two to learn.
Given that models seem to be converging to similar capabilities and that there are plenty of open weights models out there market competition should drive prices towards the marginal cost of inference.
Today we have open source projects that can compete with proprietary ones just because people without initial funding had the ability to make it competitive
You can bootstrap something with yourself and a friend with some hard work and intelligence
This is available to people all over the world, even those in countries where $1000 is a months salary
Microsoft and their employees will be fine, yeah. That's not who I'm thinking about
I mean, your employer will pay it. $1K/month is cheap for your employer.
But there is an interesting point about what it does to hobby dev. If it takes real money just to screw around for fun on your own, it's kinda like going back to the old days when you needed to have an account on a big university system to do anything with Unix.
Are more what I had in mind. Of course an established company can pay it. I don't like the idea of a world where all software is backed by big companies
I'm not too worried about startups: We used to have startups when they had to buy expensive physical servers and pay for business-class T1 connections and rent offices and all that. The idea that you can start a company with $20 and a dream is relatively new, and honestly a little bit of friction might be good.
But yeah, I share your concern about open source and hobby projects. My hope would be that you get free tiers that are aimed at hobby/non-profit/etc stuff, but who knows.
I saw a similar inflection point to this guy personally, in 2024 the models weren’t good enough for me to use them for coding much, but around the time of o1/o3/Gemini 2.5 was when things changed and I haven’t looked back since.
The whole "it's turned political so it's bad" brush off that this article anchors itself on is crazy. I understand many Americans can't understand what it's like to be under threat, but I'm not pumping money into massive organizations that pay federal American taxes. And seriously, f*ck you for insinuating I should.
It is, in fact, not crazy, because none of this is predicated on using a specific vendor.
Many of these techniques can also work with Chinese LLMs like Qwen served by your inference provider of choice. It's about the harness that they work in, gated by a certain quality bar of LLM.
Taking a discussion about harnesses and stochastic token generators and forcing it into a discussion of American imperialism is making a topic political that is not inherently political, and is exactly the sort of aggressive, cussing tribalistic attitude the article is about.
The post isn’t about tribalism. He barely mentions it.
It is another post that advocates for AI assisted coding without addressing the question of responsibility and trust. It makes claims without offering test data or even talking about testing.
I don't think everything is for certain though. I think it's 50/50 on whether Anthropic/whoever figures out how to turn them into more than a boilerplate generator.
The imprecision of LLMs is real, and a serious problem. And I think a lot of the engineering improvements (little s-curve gains or whatever) have caused more and more of these. Every step or improvement has some randomness/lossiness attached to it.
Context too small?:
- No worries, we'll compact (information loss)
- No problem, we'll fire off a bunch of agents each with their own little context window and small task to combat this. (You're trusting the coordinator to do this perfectly, and cutting the sub-agent off from the whole picture)
All of this is causing bugs/issues?:
- No worries, we'll have a review agent scan over the changes (They have the same issues though, not the full context, etc.)
Right now I think it's a fair opinion to say LLMs are poison and I don't want them to touch my codebase because they produce more output I can handle, and the mistakes they make are too subtle that I can't reliably catch them.
It's also fair to say that you don't care, and your work allows enough bugs/imprecision that you accept the risks. I do think there's a bit of an experience divide here, where people more experienced have been down the path of a codebase degrading until it's just too much to salvage – so I think that's part of why you see so much pushback. Others have worked in different environments, or projects of smaller scales where they haven't been bit by that before. But it's very easy to get to that place with SOTA LLMs today.
There's also the whole cost component to this. I think I disagree with the author about the value provided today. If costs were 5x what they are now, I think it would be a hard decision for me to decide if they are worth it. For prototypes, yes. But for serious work, where I need things to work right and be reasonably bug free, I don't know if the value works out.
I think everyone is right that we don't have the right architecture, and we're trying to fix layers of slop/imprecision by slapping on more layers of slop. Some of these issues/limitations seem fundamental and I don't know if little gains are going to change things much, but I'm really not sure and don't think I trust anyone working on the problem enough to tell me what the answer is. I guess we'll see in the next 6-12 months.
> I do think there's a bit of an experience divide here, where people more experienced have been down the path of a codebase degrading until it's just too much to salvage – so I think that's part of why you see so much pushback.
When I look back over my career to date there are so many examples of nightmare degraded codebases that I would love to have hit with a bunch of coding agents.
I remember the pain of upgrading a poorly-tested codebase from Python 2 to Python 3 - months of work that only happened because one brave engineer pulled a skunkworks project on it.
One of my favorite things about working with coding agents is that my tolerance for poorly tested, badly structured code has gone way down. I used to have to take on technical debt because I couldn't schedule the time to pay it down. Now I can use agents to eliminate that almost as soon as I spot it.
I've used Claude Code to do the same (large refactor). It has worked fairly well but it tends to introduce really subtle changes in behaviour (almost always negative) which are very difficult to identify. Even worse if you use it to fix those issues it can get stuck in a loop of constantly reintroducing issues which are slightly different leading to fixing things over and over again.
Overall I like using it still but I can also see my mental model of the codebase has significantly degraded which means I am no longer as effective in stopping it from doing silly things. That in itself is a serious problem I think.
Yes, if you don't stay on top of things and rule with an iron fist, you will take on tons of hidden tech debt using even Opus 4.5. But if you manage to review carefully and intercede often, it absolutely is an insane multiplier, especially in unfamiliar domains.
> The models don’t have to get better, the costs don’t have to come down (heck, they could even double and it’d still be worth it), and we don’t need another breakthrough.
The costs should come down. I don’t know what costs this post refers to, but the cost of using Claude is almost definitely hiding the actual cost.
That said, I’m still hoping we ensure our public models out there work well enough with opencode or other options so my cost is more transparent to me, what is added to my electric bill rather than a subscription to Claude.
Considering what's happening with PC component prices, it's likely we won't have anything to run those public models on anyway. Everything might become permanently cloud-only at some point.
What if I just enjoy how I work at the moment and don't really care about this stuff? Why do I _have_ to give it a go? Why don't LLM evangelists accept this as an option?
Choosing not to use AI agents is maybe the only tool position I feel I've had to defend or justify in over a decade of doing this, and it's so bizarre to me. It almost reeks of insecurity from the Agent Evangelists and I wonder if all the "fear" and "uncertainty" they talk about is just projecting.
What? Was anyone forcing people off vim when vs code dropped? No, go use vim. Same here. Why are you acting persecuted when you can literally do nothing.
Nobody pushed you to use git when you were comfortable with svn? Nobody pushed you to use Docker when you were comfortable running bare metal? Nobody pushed you to write unit tests when you were comfortable not? Nobody pushed you to use CSS for layout when you were happy using tables?
Some of those are before your time, but: The only time you don't get pushed to use new technologies is when a) nothing is changing and the industry is stagnant, or b) you're ahead of the curve and already exploring the new technology on your own.
Otherwise, everyone always gets pushed into using the new thing when it's good.
The engineers using svn were the ones who were pushing for git - I was the one saying "we can't, because none of the conversion tools competently preserve branch history, and it's even worse on repos that started in CVS". Noone responsible for repos was pushing for git, it was end-users pulling for it (and shutting up when they learned how much work it would cause :-) That looked nothing like the drug-dealer-esque LLM push I've been seeing for the last 3 years.
(Likewise with CVS to svn: "you can rename files now? and branches aren't horrible? Great, how fast can we switch?" - no "pushing" because literally everyone could see how much better it was in very concrete cases, it was mostly just a matter of resource allocation.)
In the context of this discussion, it feels more like ipv6 :-)
> Otherwise, everyone always gets pushed into using the new thing when it's good.
and then there is AS/400 and all the COBOL still in use which AI doesn't want to touch.
Some people don’t like to be pushed. They want their own rhythm.
But when you stop trying new stuff (“because you don’t want to”), it is a sign that your inner child got lost. (Or you have a depression or burnout.)
Lol. Surely this depends on what the new stuff is? Looks like all nuance goes out of the window when agents are involved.
Git had obvious benefits over svn.
Docker has obvious benefits over bare metal.
Etc.
My own experiences with LLMs have shown them to be entertaining, and often entertainingly wrong. I haven't been working on a project I've felt comfortable handing over to Microsoft for them to train Copilot on, and the testimonials I've seen from people who've used it are mixed enough that I don't feel like it's worth the drawbacks to take that risk.
And...sure, some people have to be pushed into using new things. Some people still like using vim to write C code, and that's fine for them. But I never saw this level of resistance to git, Docker, unit tests, or CSS.
The resistance to those things was less angry, but it was there. giveupandusetables dot com no longer exists, but you can find plenty of chin-stroking blog posts about it. It was a big argument in the late aughts!
I'm the same as you: I don't really care about this stuff. Given what we know about the start of these AI endeavors (torrenting/scraping the whole internet and training on it) then running their software seems like a liability. Is it pasting code verbatim that falls under an incompatible license? Is it training on my codebase? Why would I want to depend on this very compute intensive, cloud hosted tool?
At least with other advancements in our field like git, Docker, etc., they're made with a local-first mindset (e.g. your git repos can live anywhere and same with your docker images)
I think the standing assumption is that most of us take pride and enjoyment in being good at our craft - and some of us even want to be great at it. That means understanding all the tools at our disposal - to see if they are useful or not.
If that is not interesting to you I think that’s a totally fine choice, but you’re getting a lot of pushback from people who have made a different choice.
It almost reeks of insecurity from the Agent Evangelists and I wonder if all the "fear" and "uncertainty" they talk about is just projecting.
That's probably true on some level for some evangelists, but it's probably just as true that some people who are a bit scared of AI read every positive post about it as some sort of propaganda trying to change their mind.
Sometimes it's fine to just let people talk about things they like. You don't know what camp someone is in so it's good to read their post as charitably as possible.
You don’t have to! Enjoy it! Just don’t bank on getting paid for it indefinitely. That’s the aspect of it that’s causing so much consternation.
And don't bank on getting economic benefits out of being able to use Claude Code too!
I've seen a lot of developer tooling change and evolve over the course of my career, but with AI it was the first time I've seen people in non-technical managerial positions trying to force the engineers to make a switch. It was extremely bizarre.
Your work will eventually be driven by the same economics as the industry as a whole, project estimates 12 months from now will be done based on how long it takes a dev with full LLM backing, not your current speed. Then you need to be prepared to work at that speed.
You don’t have to, of course, but you probably will if you want to be competitive in a professional capacity in the future.
Not doing so seems a bit like a farmer ploughing fields and harvesting crops by hand while seeking to remain competitive with modern machinery, surely?
It remains to be seen whether these analogies will still hold in the longer term, or whether agentic code will come to be seen as cheap but buggy and mediocre.
> Why do I _have_ to give it a go?
Because your boss is going to want you capable of using these things effectively even as shortly as 1-2 years from now? If not them, then their boss.
> “What about security?” [..] “What about performance?” [..] “What about accessibility?”
TBH i'm fine with AI but my main concern isn't any of these issues (even if they suck now -though supposedly Claude Code doesn't- they can get better in the future).
My main concern, by far, is control and availability. I do not mind using some AI, but i do mind using AI that runs on someone else's computer and isn't under my control - and i can, or have a chance at, understanding/tweaking/fixing (so all my AI use is done via inference engines that are written in C++ that i compiled myself and are running on my PC).
Of course the same logic applies to anything where that makes sense (i.e. all my software runs locally, the only things i use online/cloud versions for are things which are inherently about networking - e.g. chat, forums, etc, but even then i use -say- a desktop-based email client instead of webmail).
Absolutely. I'm gonna go full agentic coding the day I can do it with open-weight models on my machine. Until then feeding someone else's models with more data on how to replace me in particular sounds insane to me.
If you think it's going to replace you, then it's going to replace you regardless of whether you personally are feeding it data or not.
If it produces value for you, you should use it. If not, don't.
> I can already hear the cries of protest from other engineers who (like me) are clutching onto their hard-won knowledge.
You mean the knowledge that Claude has stolen from all of us and regurgitated into your projects without any copyright attributions?
> But I see a lot of my fellow developers burying their heads in the sand
That feeling is mutual.
> You mean the knowledge that Claude has stolen from all of us and regurgitated into your projects without any copyright attributions?
You can't, and shouldn't be able to, copyright and hoard "knowledge".
I did not suggest that; however, the law is clear. If I use my knowledge to produce code, under a specific license, then you take that code, and reproduce it without the license, you have broken the law.
You can twist this around as much as you like but there are several studies showing that LLMs and and will happily reproduce content from their training data.
> If I use my knowledge to produce code, under a specific license, then you take that code, and reproduce it without the license, you have broken the law.
Correct. But if read your code, produce a detailed specification of that code, and then give that code to another team (that has never seen your code) and they create a similar product then they haven't broken the law.
LLMs reproducing exact content from their training data is symptom of overfitting and is an error that needs correcting. Memorizing specific training data means that it is not generalizing enough.
We did the same as devopers before Claude. We would copy paste from stack overflow. Now this process is heavily automated.
> Now this process is heavily automated.
And comes with a price tag paid to people who neither own nor generated that content. You don't think that shifts the ethical boundaries _significantly_?
I don't. The general trend is that, in US rulings, courts have found that if the material was obtained legally, then training can be fair use. My understanding is that getting LLMs to regurgitate anything significant requires very specific prompting, in general.
I would very much like someone to give me the magic reproduction triple: a model trained on your code, a prompt you gave it to produce a program, and its output showing copyright infringement on the training material used. Specific examples are useful; my hypothesis is that this won't be possible using a "normal" prompt that's in general use, but rather a prompt containing a lot of directly quoted content from the training material, that then asks for more of the same. This was a problem for the NYT when they claimed OpenAI reproduced the content of their articles...they achieved this by prompting with large, unmodified sections of the article and then the LLM would spit out a handful of sentences. In their briefing to the court, they neglected to include their prompts for this reason. I think this is significant because it relates to what is really happening, rather than what people imagine is happening.
But I guess we'll get to see from the NYT trial, since OpenAI is retaining all user prompts and outputs and providing them to the NYT to sift through. So the ground-truth exists, I'm sure they'll be excited to cite all the cases where people were circumventing their paywall with OpenAI.
...from answers that were publicly shared without license. It's not the same thing, even though every LOVES to make this argument.
Also: Over the past 20 years, I could count the number of times on one hand that I was been able to get away with out-right copy/paste from SO.
In a prior job, I had to scan a 2M+ line codebase for software license violations to support the sale of a unit to another corporation. One class of violation was using SO snippets, because they are licensed under CC and not compatible with the distribution model the new company was planning. Many weeks of work to track them all down.
Stackoverflow code has a license (not per post, but a blanket one depending on which year - https://stackoverflow.com/help/licensing it's mostly CC BY-SA.) I've written corporate policies that emphasize that you can learn from SO answers, but (as you point out) they basically never fit exactly - and you should include a link to the original so when the next Ubuntu LTS breaks your clever hack, we can see if someone has already posted a fix :-)
> I’m mostly […] doing routine tasks that it’s slow at, like refactoring or renaming.
So… humans are now doing the stuff that computers are supposed to do and be good at?
No I think he means using a refactor tool in the IDE. Though really all we need to do is expose an API for the agent, which we should do.
Yeah. Lots of talk about agents and whatever, but then you lack minimal integration with the most basic of tools?
They're building all this stuff. Be patient. There's a large backlog. And it takes time and experimentation to figure out.
> I see a lot of my fellow developers burying their heads in the sand, refusing to acknowledge the truth in front of their eyes, and it breaks my heart because a lot of us are scared, confused, or uncertain, and not enough of us are talking honestly about it.
Imagine if we had to suffer these posts, day in and day out, when React or Kubernetes or any other piece of technology got released. This kind of proselyting that is the very reason there is tribalism with AI.
I don't want to use it, just like I don't want to use many technologies that got released, while I have adopted others. Can we please move on, or do we have to suffer this kind of moaning until everybody has converted to the new religion?
Never in my 20 years in this career have I seen such maniacal obsession as it has been over the past few years, the never-ending hype that have transformed this forum into a place I do not recognise, into a career I don't recognise, where people you used to respect [1] have gone into a psychosis and dream of ferrets, and if you dare being skeptical about any of it, you are bombarded with "I used to dislike AI, now I have seen the light and if you haven't I'm sorry for you. Please reconsider." stories like this one.
Jesus, live and let live. Stop trying to make AI a religion. It's posts like this one that create the sort of tribalism they rail against, into a battle between the "enlightened few" versus the silly Luddites.
1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46744397
You of course don't have to use AI. Your core point is correct: the world around you is changing quickly, and in unpredictable ways. And that's why it's dangerous to ignore: if you've developed a way that worked in the world 10 years ago, there's a risk it won't play the same way in the world of 2030. So this is time-frame to prepare for whatever that change will be.
For some people, that's picking up the tool and trying to figure out what its good for (if anything) and how it works.
The author of that post Nolan is a pretty interesting guy and deep in the web tech stack. He’s really one of the last people I’d call "tribal", especially since you mention React. This guy hand-writes his web components and files bug reports to browsers and writes his own memory leak detection lib and so on.
If such a guy is slowly dipping his toes into AI and comes to the conclusion he just posted, you should take a step back and consider your position.
I really don't care what authority he's arguing from. The "just try it" pitch here is fundamentally a tribalist argument: tribes don't want another tribe to exist that's viewed as threatening to them.
Trying a new technology seems like what engineers do (since they have to leverage technology to solve real problems, having more tools to choose from can be good). I'm surprised it rings as tribalist.
Honestly that's what makes this all the more dangerous. He's trying to have his cake and eat it too: accept all of the hype and all of the propaganda, but then couch it in the rhetoric of "oh I'm so concerned I can remain in a sort of moderate & empathetic position and not fall prey to tribalism and flame wars."
There's no both-sides-ing of genAI. This is an issue akin to street narcotics, mass weapons of war, or forever chemicals. You're either on the side of heavy regulation or outright bans, or you're on the side of tech politics which are directly harmful to humanity. The OP is not a thoughtful moderate because that's not how any of this works.
I don't think you understand how much things are about to change in a relatively short time. A lot of people are rightfully confused and concerned.
Many people are seeing this as an existential moment requiring careful navigation and planning, not just another language or browser or text editor war.
This is exactly my position. Landscape-changing technology is impossible to get away from, because it follows you. It's like a local business owner in 1998 telling me they didn't care about the stupid "internet" thing, and then the internet blew away their business within 10 years. Similar story with the PC: folks didn't get the option to just "opt out" of a digital office because they liked typewriters and paper. Cell phones were this way also, and while many people post about how they hate their phones and needs to quit using it so much, pretty much everyone admits you can't live in society without one because they have pervaded so many interactions.
So that's how I think AI will be seen in 20 years: like the PC, the internet, and mobile phones. Tech that shapes society, for better or worse.
where are the productivity gains in GDP?
where are the websites that are lightning fast, where speed and features and ads have been magically optimized by ai, and things feel fast like 2001 google.com fast
why does customer service still SUCK?
We are still massively lacking in software. We're not at the stage of making websites faster, we're at the stage of making more of them. We haven't come close to hitting the point where we have enough software and now the job is to refine it.
Because companies now develop shitty websites faster, they don’t magically get better.
AI has pushed me to arrive at an epiphany: new technology is good if it helps me spend more time doing things that I enjoy doing; it's bad if it doesn't; it's worse if I end up spending more time doing things that I don't enjoy.
AI has increased the sheer volume of code we are producing per hour (and probably also the amount of energy spent per unit of code). But, it hasn't spared me or anyone I know the cost of testing, reviewing or refining that code.
Speaking for myself, writing code was always the most fun part of the job. I get a dopamine hit when CI is green, sure, but my heart sinks a bit every time I'm assigned to review a 5K+ loc mountain of AI slop (and it has been happening a lot lately).
I agree. I’m using copilot more and more as it gets better and better, but it is getting better at the fun stuff and leaves me to do the less fun stuff. I’m in a role where I need to review code across multiple teams, and as their output is increasing, so is my review load. The biggest issue is that the people who lean on copilot the most are the least skilled at writing/reviewing code in the first place, so not only do I have more to review, it’s worse(1).
My medium term concern is that the tasks where we want a human in the loop (esp review) are predicated on skills that come from actually writing code. If LLMs stagnate, in a generation we’re not going to have anyone who grew up writing code.
1: not that LLMs write objectively bad code, but it doesn’t follow our standards and patterns. Like, we have an internal library of common UI components and CSS, but the LLM will pump out custom stuff.
There is some stuff that we can pick up with analysers and fail the build, but a lot of things just come down to taste and corporate knowledge.
I've been using it to do big refactors are large changes that I would simply avoid because, before, the benefits don't outweigh the costs of the doing it. I think half the problem people have is just using AI for the wrong stuff.
I don't see why it doesn't help with reviewing, testing, or refining code either. One of the advantages I find is that an LLM "thinks" differently from me so it'll find issues that I don't notice or maybe even know about. I've certainly had it develop entire test harnesses to ensure pre/post refactoring results are the same.
That said, I have "held it wrong" and had it done the fun stuff instead and that felt bad. So I just changed how I used it.
I read a lot of AI generated code these days. It makes really bad mistakes (even when the nature of the change is a refactor). I've tried out a few different tools and methodologies, but I haven't escaped the need to babysit the "agent." If I stepped aside, it would create more work for me and others on the backend of our workflow.
I read anecdotes of teams that push through AI-driven changes as fast as possible with awe. Surely their AIs are no more capable than the ones I'm familiar with.
I read all the code and it sometimes make mistakes -- but I wouldn't call it really bad. And often merely pointing it out will get a correction. Sometimes it is funny. It's not perfect but nothing is perfect. I have noticed that the quality seems to be improving.
I still think whether you see sustained value or not depends a lot on your workflow -- in what you choose to do or decide and what you let it choose to do or decide.
I agree with you that this idea of just pushing out AI code -- especially code written from scratch -- by an AI sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. But honestly a lot of organizations let a lot of crappy code into their code-base long before AI came long. Those organizations are just doing the same now at scale. AI didn't change the quality, it just changed the quantity.
> The models don’t have to get better, the costs don’t have to come down (heck, they could even double and it’d still be worth it)
What worries me about this is that it might end up putting up a barrier for those that can't afford it. What do things look like if models cost $1000 or more a month and genuinely provide 3x productivity improvements?
If they're paying you, they can afford it. Also, even if running large teams of coding agents becomes practical, you don't necessarily need more than one or two to learn.
They want you to have to pay for an advantage. If a single AI provider gets enough advantage, they'll be able to charge whatever they want.
Given that models seem to be converging to similar capabilities and that there are plenty of open weights models out there market competition should drive prices towards the marginal cost of inference.
$1000 a month to make someone whose being $10,000 a month even 1.5x more productive is well worth the price.
Today we have open source projects that can compete with proprietary ones just because people without initial funding had the ability to make it competitive
You can bootstrap something with yourself and a friend with some hard work and intelligence
This is available to people all over the world, even those in countries where $1000 is a months salary
Microsoft and their employees will be fine, yeah. That's not who I'm thinking about
I mean, your employer will pay it. $1K/month is cheap for your employer.
But there is an interesting point about what it does to hobby dev. If it takes real money just to screw around for fun on your own, it's kinda like going back to the old days when you needed to have an account on a big university system to do anything with Unix.
Open source software
Small bootstrapped startups
Are more what I had in mind. Of course an established company can pay it. I don't like the idea of a world where all software is backed by big companies
I'm not too worried about startups: We used to have startups when they had to buy expensive physical servers and pay for business-class T1 connections and rent offices and all that. The idea that you can start a company with $20 and a dream is relatively new, and honestly a little bit of friction might be good.
But yeah, I share your concern about open source and hobby projects. My hope would be that you get free tiers that are aimed at hobby/non-profit/etc stuff, but who knows.
I am happy to play my small part in helping fuel the supply of essays about what I can only describe as: This Stuff.
I saw a similar inflection point to this guy personally, in 2024 the models weren’t good enough for me to use them for coding much, but around the time of o1/o3/Gemini 2.5 was when things changed and I haven’t looked back since.
> heck, they could even double and it’d still be worth it
What about 10x more?
Shhh, don't give them any ideas.
they might not have a choice when all that VC money runs out
I'd pay $5000-$10,000 dollars per year for a full-time AI engineer powered by Claude or a similar backend.
Edit: If I get a raise, I'd consider paying up to $25,000 per year for the aforementioned Claude automaton.
The whole "it's turned political so it's bad" brush off that this article anchors itself on is crazy. I understand many Americans can't understand what it's like to be under threat, but I'm not pumping money into massive organizations that pay federal American taxes. And seriously, f*ck you for insinuating I should.
It is, in fact, not crazy, because none of this is predicated on using a specific vendor.
Many of these techniques can also work with Chinese LLMs like Qwen served by your inference provider of choice. It's about the harness that they work in, gated by a certain quality bar of LLM.
Taking a discussion about harnesses and stochastic token generators and forcing it into a discussion of American imperialism is making a topic political that is not inherently political, and is exactly the sort of aggressive, cussing tribalistic attitude the article is about.
Ironically the massive organizations are the ones that try to pay the least amount of federal taxes.
The post isn’t about tribalism. He barely mentions it.
It is another post that advocates for AI assisted coding without addressing the question of responsibility and trust. It makes claims without offering test data or even talking about testing.
This is kind of where I'm at.
I don't think everything is for certain though. I think it's 50/50 on whether Anthropic/whoever figures out how to turn them into more than a boilerplate generator.
The imprecision of LLMs is real, and a serious problem. And I think a lot of the engineering improvements (little s-curve gains or whatever) have caused more and more of these. Every step or improvement has some randomness/lossiness attached to it.
Context too small?:
- No worries, we'll compact (information loss)
- No problem, we'll fire off a bunch of agents each with their own little context window and small task to combat this. (You're trusting the coordinator to do this perfectly, and cutting the sub-agent off from the whole picture)
All of this is causing bugs/issues?:
- No worries, we'll have a review agent scan over the changes (They have the same issues though, not the full context, etc.)
Right now I think it's a fair opinion to say LLMs are poison and I don't want them to touch my codebase because they produce more output I can handle, and the mistakes they make are too subtle that I can't reliably catch them.
It's also fair to say that you don't care, and your work allows enough bugs/imprecision that you accept the risks. I do think there's a bit of an experience divide here, where people more experienced have been down the path of a codebase degrading until it's just too much to salvage – so I think that's part of why you see so much pushback. Others have worked in different environments, or projects of smaller scales where they haven't been bit by that before. But it's very easy to get to that place with SOTA LLMs today.
There's also the whole cost component to this. I think I disagree with the author about the value provided today. If costs were 5x what they are now, I think it would be a hard decision for me to decide if they are worth it. For prototypes, yes. But for serious work, where I need things to work right and be reasonably bug free, I don't know if the value works out.
I think everyone is right that we don't have the right architecture, and we're trying to fix layers of slop/imprecision by slapping on more layers of slop. Some of these issues/limitations seem fundamental and I don't know if little gains are going to change things much, but I'm really not sure and don't think I trust anyone working on the problem enough to tell me what the answer is. I guess we'll see in the next 6-12 months.
> I do think there's a bit of an experience divide here, where people more experienced have been down the path of a codebase degrading until it's just too much to salvage – so I think that's part of why you see so much pushback.
When I look back over my career to date there are so many examples of nightmare degraded codebases that I would love to have hit with a bunch of coding agents.
I remember the pain of upgrading a poorly-tested codebase from Python 2 to Python 3 - months of work that only happened because one brave engineer pulled a skunkworks project on it.
One of my favorite things about working with coding agents is that my tolerance for poorly tested, badly structured code has gone way down. I used to have to take on technical debt because I couldn't schedule the time to pay it down. Now I can use agents to eliminate that almost as soon as I spot it.
I've used Claude Code to do the same (large refactor). It has worked fairly well but it tends to introduce really subtle changes in behaviour (almost always negative) which are very difficult to identify. Even worse if you use it to fix those issues it can get stuck in a loop of constantly reintroducing issues which are slightly different leading to fixing things over and over again.
Overall I like using it still but I can also see my mental model of the codebase has significantly degraded which means I am no longer as effective in stopping it from doing silly things. That in itself is a serious problem I think.
Yes, if you don't stay on top of things and rule with an iron fist, you will take on tons of hidden tech debt using even Opus 4.5. But if you manage to review carefully and intercede often, it absolutely is an insane multiplier, especially in unfamiliar domains.
LLM is like a chef that cooks amazing meals in no time, but his meals often contain small pieces of broken glass.
I agree with the thrust of this but:
> The models don’t have to get better, the costs don’t have to come down (heck, they could even double and it’d still be worth it), and we don’t need another breakthrough.
The costs should come down. I don’t know what costs this post refers to, but the cost of using Claude is almost definitely hiding the actual cost.
That said, I’m still hoping we ensure our public models out there work well enough with opencode or other options so my cost is more transparent to me, what is added to my electric bill rather than a subscription to Claude.
Considering what's happening with PC component prices, it's likely we won't have anything to run those public models on anyway. Everything might become permanently cloud-only at some point.
"I'm not being tribal, it's everyone _else_."