I can't wait for all the research papers from the "They Can Talk" talking buttons studies. Absolutely fascinating stuff coming out - pets apparently learn to understand not only simple words, but complex constructions and grammar, when sufficiently modeled by their people. They even chain together words in meaningful ways to augment their vocabulary and communicate complex ideas.
Simple vocalizations are cool, but that's pretty limited communication, and if they're capable of so much more, it's pretty likely that they're using individual meows in much the same way a human would under the same constraints. Imagine only being able to say "HEY!" and having to use context and body language in every situation.
TheyCanTalk have got n>10k animals so far, mostly cats and dogs, with a handful of pigs, rabbits, goats, and others. I've seen a few horses, cows, and others on social media, too, and they've got a lot more customers than study participants.
I’ve seen some BilliSpeaks videos that absolutely convince me cats have more language capabilities than previously thought.
When you say “convincing” what are you looking for? Do you think these youtubers are just using editing tricks and traps to convince a gullible internet? Genuinely curious.
Cats don't talk in complex ways to owners. Listen to what a male cat vocalizing while trying to woo a female cat. They have something to say and a means to say it. They don't need that kind of communication for reminding the food dispenser what time it is.
Yeah it varies from individual to individual but the running theory I've seen is that cats can understand and interact with language at the level of a 3-4yo.
I would love to believe this but given my experience with my cat even single words are tough for them. For example my cat knows how to fetch her favorite toy but doesn't respond to the word "fetch" at all even with positive reinforcement (treats). The word "fetch" just doesn't mean anything for her even though I've paired it with the action of her fetch many times we play.
I don't know about cats (I haven't tried training) but my dog definitely knew a few nouns and verbs. She understood "food", "water", "walk", "bone", "ball", "bear" (her toys), and could distinguish between "point", "fetch", and "drop". With "fetch ball" she would go get the ball, whereas with "point food" she would point (paw) at the food, and with arbitrary combinations of these verbs and nouns.
It's astonishing, I didn't think they could do that, but apparently they can.
over there;
bed;
basket;
lead;
walk;
wait at the door;
go to [room];
go to [family member];
stay;
stay on the path;
paw;
paws up;
sit;
lie down;
heel;
don't pull on the lead;
no more poo poo;
no more wee wee;
this is the commute;
up;
where's your piggy?;
treat?;
buscuit?:
up for a cuddle?;
want to come up?;
permission;
okay;
no;
stop;
this way;
stay close;
hungry for some food?;
water?;
down;
don't lick;
who did this?;
come here;
shall we go the pub;
let's go;
and probably 5 or 6 more words/phrases. I don't include words like catch/fetch where accompanying action may trigger the response.
It's definitely not a three year old's grasp of language, but it's probably a point that a baby crosses somewhere between 9 and 15 months old.
I have two cats that I have clicker trained. They can: shake, high-five, fist bump, stand up, and will "go here" and come and touch your finger. They won't do any of the tricks without treats :)
One of the cats had seemed interested in fetch for several years but it never quite worked. I tried a bunch of different toys and finally found a plastic spring that she will fetch very well.
I think we have the same cat.
I also did the clicker training for paw/fist tricks and sitting pretty quick. I took a pause with the stick pointing because she traumatized herself with a stick toy and is quite avoidant to sticks.
Sprint toys are her favorite and she'll fetch those or bring them to me to throw when she wants treats.
Treats are good and all but you will probably get better results with clicker training and splitting the job into simple parts. Fetch is pretty complicated and even dogs often have issues with it - our dog did just fine on the 'chase the toy' part - mostly due to strong prey drive - but then just ran away with it :). Took months to get it working..
Also cats usually lose interest quickly, so short sessions repeated more often will give better results.
The thing with cats is they can do a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they will.
My cats will regularly come when called, if they feel like it.
But... what's she going to do if you say fetch? If she wants to fetch, she'll bring you the toy and if she doesn't want to fetch, you telling her that you would like to isn't going to change her mind.
After many years of living with cats, I have come to believe a cat actively refuses a command or request in a way that looks to humans like the cat does not hear or understand the request.
I think you might be conflating cats understanding and cats responding. When cats choose to engage they can be quite intelligent and take direction, I’ve seen it many times. But most of the time they DGAF and will ignore you.
Unlike dogs, cats aren’t seeking your approval. It is a different kind of relationship.
I'm impressed by the degree of selective catS possess. They can responds to like 5 different names if in the mood while other times won't event flinch even after repeating 20 times.
While my cat doesn't seek my approval, she is definitely highly food motivated to the point where she was faking wanting to go outside and thus put a harness on (which she does not enjoy) just for the treats she would get.
Having a 3-year old and two cats (and many more previously in my life), that sounds absurd.
I can give my 3-year old (38 months) multi-part instructions and he can even ask clarifying questions back when my instructions are ambiguous or he doesn’t understand them. He’s also being to ask insightful questions as he observes the world around him.
To suggest cats are capable of anything remotely close to that (with humans) requires extraordinary evidence.
> he can even ask clarifying questions back when my instructions are ambiguous or he doesn’t understand them
This is kinda moot in this discussion given cats have neither the facial structure nor lung capacity for this. Others are essentially saying that a cat would (have the mental capacity to) do these things if they were not so physically constrained.
> If it’s true, someone ought to be able to demonstrate it.
This is not a truism.
> Again, extraordinary evidence required.
Yeah, whatever, dude. I'm not trying to convince you, just pointing out the irrelevance of the point that humans are physically capable of speaking like humans. That's moot to the claim that had been made in the parent comment.
I could go on about other points you made. For example, you seem to be conflating working memory ("multi-part instructions") with understanding of language, given that was what the parent commenter had claimed.
> He’s also being to ask insightful questions as he observes the world around him.
Cats don't have the same mental capabilities as a 3-4 year-old but that is not under contention. That doesn't strictly mean they don't have a similar capacity for language as a 3-4 year-old. Put another way, you were not talking about your son's capacity for understanding language but rather his general mental capacity, which is not an apt refutation of what was claimed.
This isn't to convince you of some belief (indeed, you're entitled to your opinion, friend) but to point out the illogic in your argument.
I'm not sure I understand your distinction between understanding of language and general mental capacity. As I (and the other person responding, I believe) understand, the two are inseparably connected in humans.
> We also suspect that the geographical and cultural factors may have influenced interaction patterns, given that all our participants were residing in Türkiye.
Anecdotally, my cats meow at me a lot. But they're my cats (others live in the house and help care for them). I also meow back more than anyone else. In fact, I might be the only one to do so. :)
I used to meow back to my cat when he was younger for vocal modulation and pitch practice (lots of minor seconds and perfect fourths). This might have been a mistake as he's now very talkative, particularly when I'm on the phone.
A lazy error [0] in the abstract suggests that the paper may have been written by a domestic cat (Felis catus). Given that male experimenters tend to stress out mice [1], it is plausible that the opposite effect occurs in cats. Mostly, it would be fun to know whether cat greetings reflect different motivational or emotional states, since reasonable people might believe that they don't.
[0] "We also tested whether demographic factors such as the influenced the amount of greeting behavior expressed by household cats."
>it is therefore possible that male caregivers require more explicit vocalizations to notice and respond to the needs of their cats, which in turn reinforces cats' tendency to use more directed and frequent vocal behavior to attract their attention.
I can't wait for all the research papers from the "They Can Talk" talking buttons studies. Absolutely fascinating stuff coming out - pets apparently learn to understand not only simple words, but complex constructions and grammar, when sufficiently modeled by their people. They even chain together words in meaningful ways to augment their vocabulary and communicate complex ideas.
Simple vocalizations are cool, but that's pretty limited communication, and if they're capable of so much more, it's pretty likely that they're using individual meows in much the same way a human would under the same constraints. Imagine only being able to say "HEY!" and having to use context and body language in every situation.
TheyCanTalk have got n>10k animals so far, mostly cats and dogs, with a handful of pigs, rabbits, goats, and others. I've seen a few horses, cows, and others on social media, too, and they've got a lot more customers than study participants.
I haven't seen a single convincing example yet, do you mind sharing some?
Not necessarily "convincing" but the "ma-AH" aka "come here/how to speak cat" video is very cute! https://old.reddit.com/r/fixedbytheduet/comments/1os4uid/hav...
I tried it on my cat and it worked although she may have just come over to investigate why I was making weird noises at her!
The rest of the original guy's "how to speak cat" series is also fun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qyc7Krs0Fi8
> a single convincing example
On which particular thesis?
I’ve seen some BilliSpeaks videos that absolutely convince me cats have more language capabilities than previously thought.
When you say “convincing” what are you looking for? Do you think these youtubers are just using editing tricks and traps to convince a gullible internet? Genuinely curious.
I assume they need convincing in the way it proves pets can communicate complex language or it is just the owner interpreting whatever they want
> pets can communicate complex language
Who was even trying to push this narrative in the first place?
Cats don't talk in complex ways to owners. Listen to what a male cat vocalizing while trying to woo a female cat. They have something to say and a means to say it. They don't need that kind of communication for reminding the food dispenser what time it is.
Do you have examples for complex grammar?
I am Groot.
Yeah it varies from individual to individual but the running theory I've seen is that cats can understand and interact with language at the level of a 3-4yo.
This is an absolutely wild theory. 3-4 year-olds can speak in full sentences, and understand quite complicated language
I would love to believe this but given my experience with my cat even single words are tough for them. For example my cat knows how to fetch her favorite toy but doesn't respond to the word "fetch" at all even with positive reinforcement (treats). The word "fetch" just doesn't mean anything for her even though I've paired it with the action of her fetch many times we play.
I don't know about cats (I haven't tried training) but my dog definitely knew a few nouns and verbs. She understood "food", "water", "walk", "bone", "ball", "bear" (her toys), and could distinguish between "point", "fetch", and "drop". With "fetch ball" she would go get the ball, whereas with "point food" she would point (paw) at the food, and with arbitrary combinations of these verbs and nouns.
It's astonishing, I didn't think they could do that, but apparently they can.
In our case:
over there; bed; basket; lead; walk; wait at the door; go to [room]; go to [family member]; stay; stay on the path; paw; paws up; sit; lie down; heel; don't pull on the lead; no more poo poo; no more wee wee; this is the commute; up; where's your piggy?; treat?; buscuit?: up for a cuddle?; want to come up?; permission; okay; no; stop; this way; stay close; hungry for some food?; water?; down; don't lick; who did this?; come here; shall we go the pub; let's go;
and probably 5 or 6 more words/phrases. I don't include words like catch/fetch where accompanying action may trigger the response.
It's definitely not a three year old's grasp of language, but it's probably a point that a baby crosses somewhere between 9 and 15 months old.
I have two cats that I have clicker trained. They can: shake, high-five, fist bump, stand up, and will "go here" and come and touch your finger. They won't do any of the tricks without treats :)
One of the cats had seemed interested in fetch for several years but it never quite worked. I tried a bunch of different toys and finally found a plastic spring that she will fetch very well.
I think we have the same cat. I also did the clicker training for paw/fist tricks and sitting pretty quick. I took a pause with the stick pointing because she traumatized herself with a stick toy and is quite avoidant to sticks. Sprint toys are her favorite and she'll fetch those or bring them to me to throw when she wants treats.
Treats are good and all but you will probably get better results with clicker training and splitting the job into simple parts. Fetch is pretty complicated and even dogs often have issues with it - our dog did just fine on the 'chase the toy' part - mostly due to strong prey drive - but then just ran away with it :). Took months to get it working.. Also cats usually lose interest quickly, so short sessions repeated more often will give better results.
The thing with cats is they can do a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they will.
My cats will regularly come when called, if they feel like it.
But... what's she going to do if you say fetch? If she wants to fetch, she'll bring you the toy and if she doesn't want to fetch, you telling her that you would like to isn't going to change her mind.
After many years of living with cats, I have come to believe a cat actively refuses a command or request in a way that looks to humans like the cat does not hear or understand the request.
Just like me...
I’m afraid you’re conflating understanding with obedience.
I think you might be conflating cats understanding and cats responding. When cats choose to engage they can be quite intelligent and take direction, I’ve seen it many times. But most of the time they DGAF and will ignore you.
Unlike dogs, cats aren’t seeking your approval. It is a different kind of relationship.
I'm impressed by the degree of selective catS possess. They can responds to like 5 different names if in the mood while other times won't event flinch even after repeating 20 times.
While my cat doesn't seek my approval, she is definitely highly food motivated to the point where she was faking wanting to go outside and thus put a harness on (which she does not enjoy) just for the treats she would get.
Anecdotally, the pitch/tone/voice you say something seems to matter more than the words themselves, to cats.
Having a 3-year old and two cats (and many more previously in my life), that sounds absurd.
I can give my 3-year old (38 months) multi-part instructions and he can even ask clarifying questions back when my instructions are ambiguous or he doesn’t understand them. He’s also being to ask insightful questions as he observes the world around him.
To suggest cats are capable of anything remotely close to that (with humans) requires extraordinary evidence.
> he can even ask clarifying questions back when my instructions are ambiguous or he doesn’t understand them
This is kinda moot in this discussion given cats have neither the facial structure nor lung capacity for this. Others are essentially saying that a cat would (have the mental capacity to) do these things if they were not so physically constrained.
Again, extraordinary evidence required.
If it’s true, someone ought to be able to demonstrate it.
> If it’s true, someone ought to be able to demonstrate it.
This is not a truism.
> Again, extraordinary evidence required.
Yeah, whatever, dude. I'm not trying to convince you, just pointing out the irrelevance of the point that humans are physically capable of speaking like humans. That's moot to the claim that had been made in the parent comment.
I could go on about other points you made. For example, you seem to be conflating working memory ("multi-part instructions") with understanding of language, given that was what the parent commenter had claimed.
> He’s also being to ask insightful questions as he observes the world around him.
Cats don't have the same mental capabilities as a 3-4 year-old but that is not under contention. That doesn't strictly mean they don't have a similar capacity for language as a 3-4 year-old. Put another way, you were not talking about your son's capacity for understanding language but rather his general mental capacity, which is not an apt refutation of what was claimed.
This isn't to convince you of some belief (indeed, you're entitled to your opinion, friend) but to point out the illogic in your argument.
I'm not sure I understand your distinction between understanding of language and general mental capacity. As I (and the other person responding, I believe) understand, the two are inseparably connected in humans.
My two year old can completely understand a sentence and then say, “No!” or ignore me.
I’ve had cats that could do the same.
22 behavioral measures looking for one that is <0.05?
Unless they pre-registered that prediction, isn't this just the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy?
They did a Bonferroni correction to the p values, which is supposed to compensate for this kind of thing.
we asked seventy-four cats and you won't BELIEVE number eight
Yep! It's green jelly beans cause acne almost exactly.
p-hacking is a thing . . .
N=31
> We acknowledge that our sample size limits the generalizability of our findings on cat greeting behaviors.
I also found this bit funny:
> We also suspect that the geographical and cultural factors may have influenced interaction patterns, given that all our participants were residing in Türkiye.
That smacking sound you heard was stats professors facepalming across the world.
Anecdotally, my cats meow at me a lot. But they're my cats (others live in the house and help care for them). I also meow back more than anyone else. In fact, I might be the only one to do so. :)
I used to meow back to my cat when he was younger for vocal modulation and pitch practice (lots of minor seconds and perfect fourths). This might have been a mistake as he's now very talkative, particularly when I'm on the phone.
A lazy error [0] in the abstract suggests that the paper may have been written by a domestic cat (Felis catus). Given that male experimenters tend to stress out mice [1], it is plausible that the opposite effect occurs in cats. Mostly, it would be fun to know whether cat greetings reflect different motivational or emotional states, since reasonable people might believe that they don't.
[0] "We also tested whether demographic factors such as the influenced the amount of greeting behavior expressed by household cats."
[1] https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2014.15106
Already, a solid 2026 Ig Nobel contender.
Or maybe they're more excited to see the male caregivers? Or maybe the male caregivers are louder themselves so they copy them? Or maybe...
Maybe
"Greeting Vocalizations in [These 31] Domestic Cats Are More Frequent with Male Caregivers"
What the cats really are saying is 'unshaved human alert, unshaved human alert'.
>it is therefore possible that male caregivers require more explicit vocalizations to notice and respond to the needs of their cats, which in turn reinforces cats' tendency to use more directed and frequent vocal behavior to attract their attention.
This is very funny. Ig Noble prize stuff. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ig_Nobel_Prize
Does the study mention anything about how much male caregivers meow back?
It says females are more verbally interactive, possibly for cultural reasons , study was done in Turkey.
Anecdotally i can see that being similar in europe though
cats being cats, perhaps a little verbal reticence is what it takes to inspire them ;)
"n = 31" tells you how valuable this research paper is.
Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46132439
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46077728