Doesn’t really surprise me. I remember reading the article linked below from which I quote:
> Forced to raise their game, carmakers are only now realizing they cannot repeat past mistakes such as letting others build up parts and services businesses off the back of their core product. "They stole the business from us," Martinet says, referencing as an example windshield replacement companies. "So I don't want them to steal the next one."
Xavier Martinet is the President and CEO of Hyundai Motor Europe.
From my esperience, Hyundai has never been a reliable brand. Thankfully it seems these anti+ownership scams have been most common to brands who are unable to make worthwhile vehicles, At least for now.
Hyundai has a pretty average or bad reliability reputation, especially with engines with a lot of problematic ones, and has only managed to be average since a few years.
GM hos long had the same. Even in cases where GM has had toyota put a GM name on a car the GM is rated 3 stars and the Toyota name is rated 5. thus I put little weight on rattings
Anecdote but I've been super happy with my 2010 Santa Fe. It's at 135k miles and has had zero issues with the drivetrain. In fact literally the only problem with the car after 15 years is that one of the passenger doors no longer automatically locks.
I sometimes tell myself maybe I should buy an EV, but then realize I can drive this thing for another 50k miles, which I'll probably end up doing.
This is increasingly many cars, starting minimum in the past decade and an half, and not limited to EVs. It's definitely something you need to research before purchasing one so you can dodge the worst offenders. Automotive engineering has been a clown show for years, and greatly suffered from becoming too reliant on digital technology without being willing to invest and spend for robust systems, going for low-cost, low-quality, proprietary parts made in small numbers and unique to each production run. The traditional expectations that you could have options in regards to your vehicle being serviced are on their way out without consumers doing something about it. A future where only the manufacturer and its authorized shops can perform maintenance means they can set any price for it, a price that's already been skyrocketing, and that would effectively allow them to collect far more revenue than previously possible.. and if you can't extract value from customers through heated seats and high-beam subscriptions, maybe you can just have their cars full of black boxes break down more often?
I think I'm gonna keep my by now 13 year old car for a LONG time. Nothing is locked down, no complicated gearbox, no electronic parking brake, no remote control, no subscriptions, plenty of room in the engine bay (can even swap utility belt rollers without having to take out the radiator), and it's all mine and nobody else's. Yes it will cost in maintenance but at least I can at least work on it myself if need be without a computer. And by now the car is unattractive anyway, nobody is going to steal it so I don't need to worry too much about it.
> And by now the car is unattractive anyway, nobody is going to steal it so I don't need to worry too much about it.
Think you’ve got that backwards. Typically it is older cars that get stolen. 13 years old is new enough it should be harder to steal, but for joyriding or as a vehicle for doing other crimes the thieves are not looking for a new car.
This has nothing to do with EVs, and likely all new Hyundais do (or will?) use this same diagnostic system.
For comparison, Teslas do not require purchase of their software for basic maintenance, the service mode that is accessible to the user is amazing, has so many diagnostics tools available for free.
Oh and by the way, from my experience Teslas don’t ever need brake pads replaced unless you are taking the car to the track. I suspect the same is true for most other EVs.
The first time I had a flat on an electric Kia, the guy at the local garage and I spent 20 minutes figuring out how to disengage the parking brake. In the end, he did the wheel change with the car powered on, as that's the only mode where one can disengage the electronic parking brake...
Maybe I'm missing something obvious, why did you need to disengage the parking brake? You can change a wheel with the brake on, in fact I don't think I've ever done it with the brake off?
The oldschool way of installing wheels is not hammering them down with a pneumatic impact wrench in 5 seconds and calling it a day, but rather tightening each screw slightly and incrementally in an X pattern while slowly rotating the wheel, so as to make it seat as centered as possible (a questionable point, the hub should center it regardless) and without unnecessary remaining stresses (a valid point), and only then tightening with the full recommended torque.
You know, I have no idea. Maybe he was trying to hunt for the hole before deciding to swap it (they often do the rubber plug thing here for minor punctures)
A few years ago I used to help my father replace wheels in his car shop.
The lift was rather small and you couldn't get out of the car easily when you placed the car in the correct position for the lift's arms.
We placed the car about a meter from the correct position, got out, pushed it forward and placed the arms.
For this to work you need to make sure the parking brakes are not engaged.
I’ll never buy an electric car because of this stuff, as mentioned elsewhere car companies see it as a way to gouge the customer.
People who want to push for EV adoption would be well served pushing for open standards, right to repair, interoperability etc to people can buy an encumbered car that’s actually for them and not just a “vehicle” for companies to screw them (the way basically every product is now).
Yeah, this is part of a larger pattern of car manufacturers being awful and it didn't start with EVs and if they were to magically vanish tomorrow it wouldn't end.
I actually would go further and say that that the existing choice to require that only some people can change lock codes is part of the problem here even though the reporter can't be expected to know that.
For hardware locks it was only practical to attempt physical access control. The only guy who can buy the weird blanks for this high end key with moving magnets inside it has a Locksmith business, so he's probably not going to also be a burglar, life is just too short. But for electronic locks we can just choose to design the software to allow the keyholder to change what they want and only require authorization when you do not have a key - so as to allow dealers to e.g. unlock a legitimately seized vehicle and give it to a new owner.
I love my EV, but I feel it's just old enough to not have much enshitification (2020 Hyundai Ioniq EV). The same car also came as ICE and hybrid, so it feels like a normal car, just with an electric motor. I just wish it had a better range, and more grip in snow (FWD with most weight from the batteries on the rear axle). I'll keep driving it until I absolutely have to replace it.
The standards are there and the interoperability works. The only thing which remains is that Hyundai is locking features for professionals only. None of this is EV specific by the way.
BMW has done something similar for battery replacement for years. I think at-home coding of batteries is now available, but wasn’t originally. And still requires an OBD programmer.
They legally have to make diagnostic and repair information available to third parties. the law is complex and settup for independant shops but if it is really this bad expect the courts to intervien.
Did you read the article? The only thing which stopped the replacement is a professional mechanic certification.
The law works exactly as designed. Independent shops have the ability to service these cars without any problems, even the hardware mentioned is not a problem, since it works with all cars following the standard.
What's roughly the period when this kind of shenanigans started being common among major automakers? I'm not a car guy and thinking about a used car soon[1], Not sure how far back I should go in terms of year. I am in Australia BTW.
[1] would be family's 2nd car. We have another recent car with all the online crap, I hate it
I said this last time and was able to confirm it in the interim. You can just wind it forward and back with a 12v probe. The parking brake system (as most do these days) senses amperage draw so just get it close and you'll be fine.
This isn't a hurdle for "real shops" or DIYers. It's a hurdle for Jiffy Lube type shops that can't make having teenagers poke around with test probes official procedure.
I believe this is already what happens with Volkswagen - recently I had my brakes replaced by an independent mechanic, and they had to charge me $50ish for some software lock as part of the process.
Disabling and then reenabling the EPB is part of doing a rear brake job not some optional extra, very cheeky (IMHO) to charge extra for that. It's also possible to do it without a VAGCOM tool, but requires removing the EPB motor so the piston can be pushed back and then manually turning the motor to the disengaged position so that it can be refitted.
You needed software to replace rear brake pads on Audis with electronic parking brake since about 2004 or whenever they introduced C6. It's not a big deal and could be done with VAG-com, but that means any small garage with mechanic who can just turn nuts and bolts won't be able to do it.
"Yes. You need vag to disable the electronic parking brake in the rear. The piston cannot be pressed into the caliper if the park brake is not disabled.
"
I’ve done small automotive tasks for years. Oil changes, brakes, a radiator.
As I get older, I’m sure I’ll pay instead. But I feel the ladder is being drawn up— my young adult kids won’t have much of a choice. The shade tree mechanic life is becoming a thing of the past.
Part of the reason why I don't want to buy/drive a car are stories like this. They're practically locked-down computers on wheels, where the manufacturer is in full control of every operational aspect of the machine. The consumer/driver are merely given a choice of how they want to reach their destination, and I suspect even that will eventually be taken away, as we move towards full autonomy and vehicle-as-a-service models.
Is there such a thing as an open source vehicle? Or some approximation of that? Are there manufacturers that are more open to this than others? I realize that giving full control over a 2-ton speeding machine to users might not be the best idea, but surely there is some middle ground here. Or is the only option to buy/use cars built before the "smart" era?
Well pretty much any car before 2005 came with manuals and have large aftermarket support assuming it's not something mega niche. If you want control of the engine and you want to wire literally everything yourself check out speeduino and learn how an ICE works. I run my old Corvette with it.
Did you read the article? It specifically mentions that the car is based on a standard for maintenance tasks and that the sole reason why the maintenance could not be performed was because of a lack of certification as a professional mechanic.
>At this point, after spending about
$2,000 on tools, you should be able to service your own Hyundai
Ioniq brakes, but if you’re a DIYer,
you still can’t.
This is unacceptable. Another commenter has pointed out the unbelievable level of entitlelment of the current boss of hyundai. China is rapidly eroding the sales of established manufacturers. They in turn are tapping in to a new cash cow and i'm not even sure it won't work for them at least in the short term.
To clarify one thing brake disks need much less replacing on electric vehicles, which means it will hurt consumers less.
I detest that sentiment. The brake handles I had to use sooner or later were too soft, no matter the maintenance. So, I started to pull as strong as possible because otherwise the cars weren't standing still on steep hills -- I never had that issue with electric parking brakes; I love that.
Cables need replacement sometimes but I prefer the manual ones. It's really useful for turning in winter, it's fun and I trust it a lot more as an emergency brake. I've tried a Model 3 ebrake in motion once at 30-40 kmh and it locked up the rear instantly. Manual ones I can regulate so they don't lock or even let go a little if they do since they're not a button.
My problem with the EPB is that it seems to encourage drivers to simply not use it. The convenience of a zero effort digital switch disconnects the user from the physical reality of the vehicle's heft.
I've had to instruct several family members and friends to engage their parking brake when on my very steep driveway. We had to shove a car up the hill to get it out of park one time. Leaving 2 tons of car resting entirely on the parking pawl can cause trouble. I always lecture drivers to let the brake take the load before putting transmission into park (or a low gear). It can be challenging to do this with digital everything.
The real magic/genius are trailer brakes, they are electric right, however if they worked the way you would naively assume an electric brake would work, directly operating on the friction surface with an electric solenoid, It would take a huge solenoid and the amperage requirements would quickly exceed what the trailer wiring can provide. so what they do is apply an electromagnet which starts to drag on the side of rotating wheel assembly it uses this drag to push the friction surfaces together, so it takes a surprisingly small magnet to run. most of the force comes from the rotating wheel.
Fyi actual title "Replacing Brake Pads on a Hyundai Ioniq 5 N Requires a Professional Mechanic’s Login"
This article feels like half the story. Is this only a repair you can get done at a Hyundai dealer, or can you take it to any shop? Ostensibly that shop must have the Hyundai equipment, requiring you to purchase an expensive piece of equipment, so even technically this completely fails right to repair. And I don't think car dealers are explaining this when they sell you the vehicle. You don't realize until you take it in for service that you may need to buy a subscription for brake pads, or pay through the nose if you go to another shop because the equipment is expensive.
If anything, this is a very blinking, loud, and glaring sign above Hyundai cars: DO NOT BUY.
Well, basically all car manufacturers have this kind of anti-consumer behavior. So you end up not being able to buy anything that's produced after 2000. Definitely not EVs where manufacturers put even more software locks like this. It is a terrible turn-off from what supposed to be better for our environment.
EV manufacturers are taking notes from computer and mobile phones industry where only authorized technicians can replace with the authentic/genuine <brand> parts
AFAIK most cars with electric parking breaks need to be set into a special maintenance mode either via OBD-2 or a special in-car procedure to be able to change the pads. Otherwise the breaks Pistons just push together and leave no room for the new pads. At least that is what my 2015 VW would do. But every shop around here has that Software or knowledge.
So Hyundai just upped the game and put some subscription into their service software. Definitely not a consumer friendly move, as changing pads and even disks is not that hard.
The cars are literally equipped with a computer and a touchscreen these days, there is no justification to mandate an external computer or diagnostic tool to be able to do basic service such as a change of brake pads.
It seems like this may be a good opportunity for someone interested in cars to make a site that evaluates especially EV vehicles for their various tricks and traps like this OP story to hold manufacturers’ feet to the fire, so things like subscription or unlock charges and DLC nonsense is not spread and normalized. I don’t want to give them any ideas, but I would prefer if we avoided things like having to buy blinker credits do you don’t end up pulled over off found at fault in an accident because you ran out of credits to use your blinker.
I for one would love to know if a manufacturer requires expensive hidden costs for services that amount to vendor lock-in. It seems like yet another industry moving into the scammy business model like airlines and hotels, where the prices they show you are never they price you pay.
Started with FCA/Stellantis in 2018+, thanks to the Jeep "hack" through the infotainment system. They slapped a "secure gateway" on the CANbus you had to authenticate through.
They then took that system, refined it into "AutoAuth", an "independent" authority that controls access to the SGWs for "automakers".
AutoAuth is for FCA, Stellantis, and some new Nissans (apparently the 2020+ Sentra?).
VW and Mercedes also have their own "secure gateway" bullshit as well.
--
As for this Hyundai situation, there is a workaround. Unfortunately, it's the "more expensive" option.
People are using J2534 "passthrough" dongle devices to work with automotive service software. J2534 is an SAE standard for ECU programming, and thus there's a large market of cheap and expensive dongles to interface with OE software that allows J2534 "generic" access to program modules.
That's what Hyundai is protecting with the NASTF login.
If you spent even more money and bought a genuine Hyundai vehicle communications interface (VCI) pod, you could have just used the normal Hyundai GDS and accessed all the brake service functions instead of the "lower cost" J2534 generic access. It'd slide right past the NASTF stuff, and the only time you'd even be asked for NASTF is actually touching the immobilizer.
All of this at the end of the day is because cheap-ass scan tools can, with the right software, be a one-click Kia Boyz solution to perform an "all keys lost" procedure, program in a new transponder key, and run off with your car.
Hyundai have really come on in great strides in recent years. Particularly with their focus on trying to cater for actual drivers, instead of the rest of the bunch focusing on screens.
So I'll give them a lot of latitude to put this right. But, they do need to put this right.
Doesn’t really surprise me. I remember reading the article linked below from which I quote:
> Forced to raise their game, carmakers are only now realizing they cannot repeat past mistakes such as letting others build up parts and services businesses off the back of their core product. "They stole the business from us," Martinet says, referencing as an example windshield replacement companies. "So I don't want them to steal the next one."
Xavier Martinet is the President and CEO of Hyundai Motor Europe.
https://www.wired.com/story/the-global-car-reckoning-is-here...
The amount of entitlement in that statement is almost impressive.
That’s generally the outcome in abusive relationships.
And thus one of the historically most reliable manufacturers is also enshittified? Damn.
From my esperience, Hyundai has never been a reliable brand. Thankfully it seems these anti+ownership scams have been most common to brands who are unable to make worthwhile vehicles, At least for now.
Hyundai has a pretty average or bad reliability reputation, especially with engines with a lot of problematic ones, and has only managed to be average since a few years.
In the US*
In the rest of the world, with Korean-produced vehicles, they do much better
GM hos long had the same. Even in cases where GM has had toyota put a GM name on a car the GM is rated 3 stars and the Toyota name is rated 5. thus I put little weight on rattings
Anecdote but I've been super happy with my 2010 Santa Fe. It's at 135k miles and has had zero issues with the drivetrain. In fact literally the only problem with the car after 15 years is that one of the passenger doors no longer automatically locks.
I sometimes tell myself maybe I should buy an EV, but then realize I can drive this thing for another 50k miles, which I'll probably end up doing.
Hyundai isn’t really reliable. Mechanic told me to sell before reaching 100k. Meanwhile, some Japanese cars can reach 500k with proper maintenance.
This is increasingly many cars, starting minimum in the past decade and an half, and not limited to EVs. It's definitely something you need to research before purchasing one so you can dodge the worst offenders. Automotive engineering has been a clown show for years, and greatly suffered from becoming too reliant on digital technology without being willing to invest and spend for robust systems, going for low-cost, low-quality, proprietary parts made in small numbers and unique to each production run. The traditional expectations that you could have options in regards to your vehicle being serviced are on their way out without consumers doing something about it. A future where only the manufacturer and its authorized shops can perform maintenance means they can set any price for it, a price that's already been skyrocketing, and that would effectively allow them to collect far more revenue than previously possible.. and if you can't extract value from customers through heated seats and high-beam subscriptions, maybe you can just have their cars full of black boxes break down more often?
I think I'm gonna keep my by now 13 year old car for a LONG time. Nothing is locked down, no complicated gearbox, no electronic parking brake, no remote control, no subscriptions, plenty of room in the engine bay (can even swap utility belt rollers without having to take out the radiator), and it's all mine and nobody else's. Yes it will cost in maintenance but at least I can at least work on it myself if need be without a computer. And by now the car is unattractive anyway, nobody is going to steal it so I don't need to worry too much about it.
> And by now the car is unattractive anyway, nobody is going to steal it so I don't need to worry too much about it.
Think you’ve got that backwards. Typically it is older cars that get stolen. 13 years old is new enough it should be harder to steal, but for joyriding or as a vehicle for doing other crimes the thieves are not looking for a new car.
It's possible to do this without disabling the brake:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzxYdB-LBB0&t=220s
Electronic parking brakes are so stupid. They offer no real value and eliminate the ability to safely use a secondary brake in an emergency.
This has nothing to do with EVs, and likely all new Hyundais do (or will?) use this same diagnostic system.
For comparison, Teslas do not require purchase of their software for basic maintenance, the service mode that is accessible to the user is amazing, has so many diagnostics tools available for free.
Oh and by the way, from my experience Teslas don’t ever need brake pads replaced unless you are taking the car to the track. I suspect the same is true for most other EVs.
The first time I had a flat on an electric Kia, the guy at the local garage and I spent 20 minutes figuring out how to disengage the parking brake. In the end, he did the wheel change with the car powered on, as that's the only mode where one can disengage the electronic parking brake...
Maybe I'm missing something obvious, why did you need to disengage the parking brake? You can change a wheel with the brake on, in fact I don't think I've ever done it with the brake off?
The oldschool way of installing wheels is not hammering them down with a pneumatic impact wrench in 5 seconds and calling it a day, but rather tightening each screw slightly and incrementally in an X pattern while slowly rotating the wheel, so as to make it seat as centered as possible (a questionable point, the hub should center it regardless) and without unnecessary remaining stresses (a valid point), and only then tightening with the full recommended torque.
I'm all for the careful oldschool way.
I do the incremental X pattern, but never thought to rotate the wheel while doing it.
You know, I have no idea. Maybe he was trying to hunt for the hole before deciding to swap it (they often do the rubber plug thing here for minor punctures)
https://www.kiaevforums.com/threads/ps-747-maintaining-neutr...
For future reference.
How is it that the park brake needs to be disengaged to swap a wheel.
Genuinely curious, as that isn’t the case for any of my ICE vehicles.
A few years ago I used to help my father replace wheels in his car shop.
The lift was rather small and you couldn't get out of the car easily when you placed the car in the correct position for the lift's arms. We placed the car about a meter from the correct position, got out, pushed it forward and placed the arms.
For this to work you need to make sure the parking brakes are not engaged.
This isn’t an answer to the question I asked.
You do realize that jacking up a car on one side without the parking brake is quite dangerous because the car could just roll away?
Relying on only the parking brake like you describe is also dangerous. Put car in gear and/or use a wheel chock as well.
This was not on jacks, it's a small garage, but they raised the car on a proper lift
I’ll never buy an electric car because of this stuff, as mentioned elsewhere car companies see it as a way to gouge the customer.
People who want to push for EV adoption would be well served pushing for open standards, right to repair, interoperability etc to people can buy an encumbered car that’s actually for them and not just a “vehicle” for companies to screw them (the way basically every product is now).
It's more about Hyundai than about EVs.
Plenty of vehicles will have a simple procedure for disabling automatic engagement of the brake.
Unfortunately, most people don't care about this stuff, so the companies that don't do it don't really pay a penalty.
The car in this example is electric but the problem is not confined to electric cars.
Yeah, this is part of a larger pattern of car manufacturers being awful and it didn't start with EVs and if they were to magically vanish tomorrow it wouldn't end.
I actually would go further and say that that the existing choice to require that only some people can change lock codes is part of the problem here even though the reporter can't be expected to know that.
For hardware locks it was only practical to attempt physical access control. The only guy who can buy the weird blanks for this high end key with moving magnets inside it has a Locksmith business, so he's probably not going to also be a burglar, life is just too short. But for electronic locks we can just choose to design the software to allow the keyholder to change what they want and only require authorization when you do not have a key - so as to allow dealers to e.g. unlock a legitimately seized vehicle and give it to a new owner.
I love my EV, but I feel it's just old enough to not have much enshitification (2020 Hyundai Ioniq EV). The same car also came as ICE and hybrid, so it feels like a normal car, just with an electric motor. I just wish it had a better range, and more grip in snow (FWD with most weight from the batteries on the rear axle). I'll keep driving it until I absolutely have to replace it.
Did you read the article?
The standards are there and the interoperability works. The only thing which remains is that Hyundai is locking features for professionals only. None of this is EV specific by the way.
BMW has done something similar for battery replacement for years. I think at-home coding of batteries is now available, but wasn’t originally. And still requires an OBD programmer.
Requiring an OBD2 programmer seems totally fine to me, just as requiring a 10mm socket and wrench is.
They legally have to make diagnostic and repair information available to third parties. the law is complex and settup for independant shops but if it is really this bad expect the courts to intervien.
Did you read the article? The only thing which stopped the replacement is a professional mechanic certification.
The law works exactly as designed. Independent shops have the ability to service these cars without any problems, even the hardware mentioned is not a problem, since it works with all cars following the standard.
What's roughly the period when this kind of shenanigans started being common among major automakers? I'm not a car guy and thinking about a used car soon[1], Not sure how far back I should go in terms of year. I am in Australia BTW.
[1] would be family's 2nd car. We have another recent car with all the online crap, I hate it
I said this last time and was able to confirm it in the interim. You can just wind it forward and back with a 12v probe. The parking brake system (as most do these days) senses amperage draw so just get it close and you'll be fine.
This isn't a hurdle for "real shops" or DIYers. It's a hurdle for Jiffy Lube type shops that can't make having teenagers poke around with test probes official procedure.
Yep, I've used this method of just putting +12V on the connector pin several times when my Autel tool didn't support the car I was working on.
My 2010 VW also needs a VCDS license to do this?
I believe this is already what happens with Volkswagen - recently I had my brakes replaced by an independent mechanic, and they had to charge me $50ish for some software lock as part of the process.
Disabling and then reenabling the EPB is part of doing a rear brake job not some optional extra, very cheeky (IMHO) to charge extra for that. It's also possible to do it without a VAGCOM tool, but requires removing the EPB motor so the piston can be pushed back and then manually turning the motor to the disengaged position so that it can be refitted.
You needed software to replace rear brake pads on Audis with electronic parking brake since about 2004 or whenever they introduced C6. It's not a big deal and could be done with VAG-com, but that means any small garage with mechanic who can just turn nuts and bolts won't be able to do it.
> https://www.audiworld.com/forums/a6-s6-c6-platform-discussio...
"Yes. You need vag to disable the electronic parking brake in the rear. The piston cannot be pressed into the caliper if the park brake is not disabled. "
I’ve done small automotive tasks for years. Oil changes, brakes, a radiator.
As I get older, I’m sure I’ll pay instead. But I feel the ladder is being drawn up— my young adult kids won’t have much of a choice. The shade tree mechanic life is becoming a thing of the past.
Part of the reason why I don't want to buy/drive a car are stories like this. They're practically locked-down computers on wheels, where the manufacturer is in full control of every operational aspect of the machine. The consumer/driver are merely given a choice of how they want to reach their destination, and I suspect even that will eventually be taken away, as we move towards full autonomy and vehicle-as-a-service models.
Is there such a thing as an open source vehicle? Or some approximation of that? Are there manufacturers that are more open to this than others? I realize that giving full control over a 2-ton speeding machine to users might not be the best idea, but surely there is some middle ground here. Or is the only option to buy/use cars built before the "smart" era?
Well pretty much any car before 2005 came with manuals and have large aftermarket support assuming it's not something mega niche. If you want control of the engine and you want to wire literally everything yourself check out speeduino and learn how an ICE works. I run my old Corvette with it.
Unplug the actuator and power it directly to release the brake? Or is the interface to it also somehow DRM'd?
Seems like a time for some regulations about what levels of repairability and interoperability products must have.
Did you read the article? It specifically mentions that the car is based on a standard for maintenance tasks and that the sole reason why the maintenance could not be performed was because of a lack of certification as a professional mechanic.
>At this point, after spending about $2,000 on tools, you should be able to service your own Hyundai Ioniq brakes, but if you’re a DIYer, you still can’t.
This is unacceptable. Another commenter has pointed out the unbelievable level of entitlelment of the current boss of hyundai. China is rapidly eroding the sales of established manufacturers. They in turn are tapping in to a new cash cow and i'm not even sure it won't work for them at least in the short term.
To clarify one thing brake disks need much less replacing on electric vehicles, which means it will hurt consumers less.
"...satisfying handle..."
I detest that sentiment. The brake handles I had to use sooner or later were too soft, no matter the maintenance. So, I started to pull as strong as possible because otherwise the cars weren't standing still on steep hills -- I never had that issue with electric parking brakes; I love that.
Cables need replacement sometimes but I prefer the manual ones. It's really useful for turning in winter, it's fun and I trust it a lot more as an emergency brake. I've tried a Model 3 ebrake in motion once at 30-40 kmh and it locked up the rear instantly. Manual ones I can regulate so they don't lock or even let go a little if they do since they're not a button.
My problem with the EPB is that it seems to encourage drivers to simply not use it. The convenience of a zero effort digital switch disconnects the user from the physical reality of the vehicle's heft.
I've had to instruct several family members and friends to engage their parking brake when on my very steep driveway. We had to shove a car up the hill to get it out of park one time. Leaving 2 tons of car resting entirely on the parking pawl can cause trouble. I always lecture drivers to let the brake take the load before putting transmission into park (or a low gear). It can be challenging to do this with digital everything.
Don't EPBs get applied automatically? I have a 2020 car, if I turn off the engine it goes to Park and engages the EPB.
My 2020 Hyundai Ioniq EV doesn't do this. It's a separate button.
Not on our ’21 Honda
You might just need to adjust the brakes in the back. Usually there is an equalizer with a nut you can tighten for it to lock the rear better.
too soft, no matter the maintenance
That sounds like they weren't adjusted correctly.
And manual parking brakes aren't really wonders of mechanical simplicity anyway
The real magic/genius are trailer brakes, they are electric right, however if they worked the way you would naively assume an electric brake would work, directly operating on the friction surface with an electric solenoid, It would take a huge solenoid and the amperage requirements would quickly exceed what the trailer wiring can provide. so what they do is apply an electromagnet which starts to drag on the side of rotating wheel assembly it uses this drag to push the friction surfaces together, so it takes a surprisingly small magnet to run. most of the force comes from the rotating wheel.
That's the "self-applying" property of drum brakes. Not specific to trailer brakes.
They're actually really simple? Two wedge-shaped brake shoes that cam into the inner diameter of the wheel.
More not easy to servicd if they seized and you can disassemble half the car to get to all the cables and so on
Fyi actual title "Replacing Brake Pads on a Hyundai Ioniq 5 N Requires a Professional Mechanic’s Login"
This article feels like half the story. Is this only a repair you can get done at a Hyundai dealer, or can you take it to any shop? Ostensibly that shop must have the Hyundai equipment, requiring you to purchase an expensive piece of equipment, so even technically this completely fails right to repair. And I don't think car dealers are explaining this when they sell you the vehicle. You don't realize until you take it in for service that you may need to buy a subscription for brake pads, or pay through the nose if you go to another shop because the equipment is expensive.
If anything, this is a very blinking, loud, and glaring sign above Hyundai cars: DO NOT BUY.
Well, basically all car manufacturers have this kind of anti-consumer behavior. So you end up not being able to buy anything that's produced after 2000. Definitely not EVs where manufacturers put even more software locks like this. It is a terrible turn-off from what supposed to be better for our environment.
EV manufacturers are taking notes from computer and mobile phones industry where only authorized technicians can replace with the authentic/genuine <brand> parts
AFAIK most cars with electric parking breaks need to be set into a special maintenance mode either via OBD-2 or a special in-car procedure to be able to change the pads. Otherwise the breaks Pistons just push together and leave no room for the new pads. At least that is what my 2015 VW would do. But every shop around here has that Software or knowledge.
So Hyundai just upped the game and put some subscription into their service software. Definitely not a consumer friendly move, as changing pads and even disks is not that hard.
The cars are literally equipped with a computer and a touchscreen these days, there is no justification to mandate an external computer or diagnostic tool to be able to do basic service such as a change of brake pads.
It seems like this may be a good opportunity for someone interested in cars to make a site that evaluates especially EV vehicles for their various tricks and traps like this OP story to hold manufacturers’ feet to the fire, so things like subscription or unlock charges and DLC nonsense is not spread and normalized. I don’t want to give them any ideas, but I would prefer if we avoided things like having to buy blinker credits do you don’t end up pulled over off found at fault in an accident because you ran out of credits to use your blinker.
I for one would love to know if a manufacturer requires expensive hidden costs for services that amount to vendor lock-in. It seems like yet another industry moving into the scammy business model like airlines and hotels, where the prices they show you are never they price you pay.
This "secure gateway" shit is already tiring.
Started with FCA/Stellantis in 2018+, thanks to the Jeep "hack" through the infotainment system. They slapped a "secure gateway" on the CANbus you had to authenticate through.
They then took that system, refined it into "AutoAuth", an "independent" authority that controls access to the SGWs for "automakers".
AutoAuth is for FCA, Stellantis, and some new Nissans (apparently the 2020+ Sentra?).
VW and Mercedes also have their own "secure gateway" bullshit as well.
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As for this Hyundai situation, there is a workaround. Unfortunately, it's the "more expensive" option.
People are using J2534 "passthrough" dongle devices to work with automotive service software. J2534 is an SAE standard for ECU programming, and thus there's a large market of cheap and expensive dongles to interface with OE software that allows J2534 "generic" access to program modules.
That's what Hyundai is protecting with the NASTF login.
If you spent even more money and bought a genuine Hyundai vehicle communications interface (VCI) pod, you could have just used the normal Hyundai GDS and accessed all the brake service functions instead of the "lower cost" J2534 generic access. It'd slide right past the NASTF stuff, and the only time you'd even be asked for NASTF is actually touching the immobilizer.
All of this at the end of the day is because cheap-ass scan tools can, with the right software, be a one-click Kia Boyz solution to perform an "all keys lost" procedure, program in a new transponder key, and run off with your car.
Hyundai have really come on in great strides in recent years. Particularly with their focus on trying to cater for actual drivers, instead of the rest of the bunch focusing on screens.
So I'll give them a lot of latitude to put this right. But, they do need to put this right.
The president of the company's quote here doesn't give a warm fuzzy feeling about that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45943646
Just head of their Europe division