Probably the best indicator of which features are supported is to pass as many tests as possible from WPT that cover that feature.
I did some experiments to pass some tests from WPT, but many of them require JS to perform the check (I was also reading how you do it in blitz). It would probably be the best way forward, so it indicates what is actually supported.
If anyone is interested in a modern take on a lightweight, embeddable web browser / browser engine (that supports features like Flexbox, CSS Grid, CSS variables, media queries, etc), then I'm building one over at https://github.com/DioxusLabs/blitz
This month I have been working on support for CSS floats [0] (not yet merged to main), which turn out to still be important for rendering much of the modern web including wikipedia, github, and (old) reddit.
Mentioning your usage of servo components might help with credibility. You're not starting from scratch.
Edit: to be clear, I consider this a good thing. You've got a head start, are contributing to the ecosystem and aren't doing by yourself something that others have spent billions on.
That's a bit of an open question at the moment. The obvious choice from a Rust ecosystem perspective (easiest to integrate) would be Boa (https://boajs.dev/). It has excellent standards conformance, but terrible performance. We'd need to test to what extent that would be an issue in practice.
Other engines on my radar: quickjs, hermes, primjs (and of course V8/JSC/SM, but they don't exactly fit with the "lightweight ethos").
There is also the possibility of bindings with more than one engine and/or using some kind of abstraction like NAPI or JSI.
Dillo is hands down the best ultra lightweight browser ever developed in my opinion. I had a Toshiba Tecra that I got from Goodwill when I had absolutely no money whatsoever in my college days, And it was at least 15 years out of date as a laptop even when I first got it. I installed Puppy Linux on it, and I had Dillo as the browser. Its ability to bring rapid web browsing to old hardware is without equal.
I still use a modern version of it now on a Pine Tab 2 tablet, which has slow enough hardware that you want something like Dillo to make it feel snappy. I just make sure to bookmark lightweight websites that are most agreeable to Dillo's strip down versions of web pages.
It's one of the reasons I feel like Linux on the desktop in the 00s and 2010s had the superpower of making ancient hardware nearly up to par with modern hardware or at least meaningfully closing the gap.
I may be imagining this, but I'm nearly certain I was running dillo on a PDA (I want to say Palm Treo) around 2001. I remember it feeling revolutionary to open up a webpage on something other than my linux desktop computer at the time. Over Wifi!
I installed the latest (version 1.4) FreeDOS just now and keeping half an eye on the installer as names of installed packages flashed by I noticed Dillo. Is DOS still a supported platform or is FreeDOS shipping some old version? I hope it is the former.
I just started it up and it turned out to be Dillo 3.0 from 2011. I do not know if it was using FLTK back then, but a quick search says that FLTK has been ported to DOS so that might not be an obstacle for the current developers to keep FreeDOS support if they wanted to.
`brew install dillo` on Macs (and see [0] for other platforms)
and then `dillo` starts up a 1.1Mb executable that is so freaking, shockingly fast.
TIL I also learned that although the Google homepage renders beautifully, I need to "Turn on JavaScript to keep searching" [1]
Wow, Google Maps is even snarky-ish about it: "When you have eliminated the JavaScript, whatever remains must be an empty page." (that's what appears! for real)
Yeah, Google stopped working without JavaScript in the last year (although I believe this is a region-dependent block and may also vary by user agent string)
Yeah, I tried to reach out to Google back when they introduced the JS-wall, but they seem to have an AI chatbot acting as a filter, so I didn't spent much energy.
Later they also blocked other non-JS browsers like links or w3m, so I assume they no longer care. They used to maintain several frontends that worked in really old devices.
I don't think there is any User-Agent that works today, however you can still use the Google index via other search indexes that can fetch Google results without JS (for example Startpage still works). However, it is probably a good idea to have more options available that have their own independent index engine (for example Mojeek). Seirdy has a very good list: https://seirdy.one/posts/2021/03/10/search-engines-with-own-...
Was a lifesaver to me back in the day, running my frankenstein machine pieced together from useless spares I cobbled together from the computer store I worked at briefly. Every piece of software I ran was trimmed down to the absolute minimum, and it was a time before the web was completely unusuable without an ad blocker. Fond memories of Dillo.
Maintainer here.
We are currently in the process of moving Dillo away from GitHub:
- New website (nginx): https://dillo-browser.org/
- Repositories (C, cgit): https://git.dillo-browser.org/
- Bug tracker (C, buggy): https://bug.dillo-browser.org/
They should survive HN hug.
The CI runs on git hooks and outputs the logs to the web (private for now).
All services are very simple and work without JS, so Dillo can be developed fully within Dillo itself.
During this testing period I will continue to sync the git repository, but in the future I will probably mark it as archived.
See also:
- https://fosstodon.org/@dillo/114927456382947046
- https://fosstodon.org/@dillo/115307022432139097
Repeating a warning from github about the old URL - dillo.org is not controlled by the devs and could become a malware route, is that right?
Why cgit and not something nice like Gitea, or Forgejo?
Is there some kind of status tracker somewhere. That describes which web standards are supported?
Not really. There was this list but it is outdated: https://dillo-browser.org/old/css_compat/index.html
Probably the best indicator of which features are supported is to pass as many tests as possible from WPT that cover that feature.
I did some experiments to pass some tests from WPT, but many of them require JS to perform the check (I was also reading how you do it in blitz). It would probably be the best way forward, so it indicates what is actually supported.
What is the bug tracking software you are using?
[delayed]
Hmm, it is tiny on my highres screen. Anyone know how to double the scale?
If anyone is interested in a modern take on a lightweight, embeddable web browser / browser engine (that supports features like Flexbox, CSS Grid, CSS variables, media queries, etc), then I'm building one over at https://github.com/DioxusLabs/blitz
Feature support matrix is here: https://blitz.is/status/css
This month I have been working on support for CSS floats [0] (not yet merged to main), which turn out to still be important for rendering much of the modern web including wikipedia, github, and (old) reddit.
[0]: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/Reference/P...
Mentioning your usage of servo components might help with credibility. You're not starting from scratch.
Edit: to be clear, I consider this a good thing. You've got a head start, are contributing to the ecosystem and aren't doing by yourself something that others have spent billions on.
Took me a sec to understand you didn’t mean you’re adding support for numbers with a comma :)
Took me a sec to understand you meant comma as “decimal point” :)
What JavaScript engine are you using/planning to use? I did a quick search on GitHub and found no results.
That's a bit of an open question at the moment. The obvious choice from a Rust ecosystem perspective (easiest to integrate) would be Boa (https://boajs.dev/). It has excellent standards conformance, but terrible performance. We'd need to test to what extent that would be an issue in practice.
Other engines on my radar: quickjs, hermes, primjs (and of course V8/JSC/SM, but they don't exactly fit with the "lightweight ethos").
There is also the possibility of bindings with more than one engine and/or using some kind of abstraction like NAPI or JSI.
Dillo is hands down the best ultra lightweight browser ever developed in my opinion. I had a Toshiba Tecra that I got from Goodwill when I had absolutely no money whatsoever in my college days, And it was at least 15 years out of date as a laptop even when I first got it. I installed Puppy Linux on it, and I had Dillo as the browser. Its ability to bring rapid web browsing to old hardware is without equal.
I still use a modern version of it now on a Pine Tab 2 tablet, which has slow enough hardware that you want something like Dillo to make it feel snappy. I just make sure to bookmark lightweight websites that are most agreeable to Dillo's strip down versions of web pages.
It's one of the reasons I feel like Linux on the desktop in the 00s and 2010s had the superpower of making ancient hardware nearly up to par with modern hardware or at least meaningfully closing the gap.
I may be imagining this, but I'm nearly certain I was running dillo on a PDA (I want to say Palm Treo) around 2001. I remember it feeling revolutionary to open up a webpage on something other than my linux desktop computer at the time. Over Wifi!
I hope it survives another 25 years.
I used to use it, like over 20 years ago! Mozilla Suite was too slow for my taste and I only reached for it if Dillo couldn't render a page :)
IIRC I stopped using it when Firefox ("Phoenix" at the time) was released.
Exactly the same! I was a student and couldn’t afford a very nice laptop so it was fluxbox + dillo for me.
Dillo works surprisingly well. I've used it on older systems running new operating systems. It does a web browser should do best: read web pages.
the lightness and lack of javascript can be very therapeutic
Previous/related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38847613
I installed the latest (version 1.4) FreeDOS just now and keeping half an eye on the installer as names of installed packages flashed by I noticed Dillo. Is DOS still a supported platform or is FreeDOS shipping some old version? I hope it is the former.
It looks like FLTK was ported to DOS back in 2011 so it might be real https://sourceforge.net/p/freedos/news/2011/11/dillo-a-web-b...
AFAIK Dillo is GTK-based, at least the UI part, so I don't think so.
Nope, it uses https://www.fltk.org/
FLTK was a pleasure to use (for uncomplicated software). They also put the latest code on Github: https://github.com/fltk/fltk
I just started it up and it turned out to be Dillo 3.0 from 2011. I do not know if it was using FLTK back then, but a quick search says that FLTK has been ported to DOS so that might not be an obstacle for the current developers to keep FreeDOS support if they wanted to.
`brew install dillo` on Macs (and see [0] for other platforms)
and then `dillo` starts up a 1.1Mb executable that is so freaking, shockingly fast.
TIL I also learned that although the Google homepage renders beautifully, I need to "Turn on JavaScript to keep searching" [1]
Wow, Google Maps is even snarky-ish about it: "When you have eliminated the JavaScript, whatever remains must be an empty page." (that's what appears! for real)
I mean, what was I expecting. U+1F643.
[0] https://github.com/dillo-browser/dillo/blob/master/doc/insta...
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/google/comments/1i3njv0/google_begi...
Yeah, Google stopped working without JavaScript in the last year (although I believe this is a region-dependent block and may also vary by user agent string)
Only several weeks ago was when they broke it for all UAs I could try. If anyone has figured out one that still works, please do tell.
Incidentally, DDG still works without JS.
Yeah, I tried to reach out to Google back when they introduced the JS-wall, but they seem to have an AI chatbot acting as a filter, so I didn't spent much energy.
Later they also blocked other non-JS browsers like links or w3m, so I assume they no longer care. They used to maintain several frontends that worked in really old devices.
I don't think there is any User-Agent that works today, however you can still use the Google index via other search indexes that can fetch Google results without JS (for example Startpage still works). However, it is probably a good idea to have more options available that have their own independent index engine (for example Mojeek). Seirdy has a very good list: https://seirdy.one/posts/2021/03/10/search-engines-with-own-...
Was a lifesaver to me back in the day, running my frankenstein machine pieced together from useless spares I cobbled together from the computer store I worked at briefly. Every piece of software I ran was trimmed down to the absolute minimum, and it was a time before the web was completely unusuable without an ad blocker. Fond memories of Dillo.