Mhm, this is a proprietary OS developed by a dilapidated company… Here is another OS sharing the Nokia/MeeGo heritage, except fully open source and actively developed (not ready for general use either, AFAICT [yet]): https://nemomobile.net/
I would seriously consider SailfishOS if it shipped on decent (recent) hardware that was available in the US. The last good experience I had with it was on the Xperia XA2, but that hardware was turned into ewaste by the VoLTE requirements of US carriers. Although they claim to run on more recent Xperia phones, they don't have full hardware support, and aren't on the most recent models. If I'm going to pay for a phone OS and hardware to support it, I want some assurance it won't be total jank.
Well you'll need to talk to your monopolistic carriers then. US mobile innovation is dead for the foreseeable future due to them, all new innovation is happening in China and other SE Asian markets.
You just need to be a good consumer and buy that iPhone that Verizon orders you to have with their blessing.
Carriers in the US restricted the phones people used in the 00s and early 10s, back when there were short model whitelists, CDMA networks, and radios with only a few bands… but not so much today. Global market GSM phones activate pretty much on any US carrier just fine today.
2/3g deprecation and VoLTE is precisely because US carriers are pushing forward with new tech.
What you are describing is much more accurate of the US cell carriers before the iPhone. I remember paying $20/mo (to the carrier) for a terrible mail application on a feature phone. The iPhone's AT&T deal saved us from that situation.
What are some of the innovations you're referring to?
I remember not too long ago seeing a similar table from Jolla that showed these devices, but also included a breakdown of specific hardware features that were not fully working. Was there a major update in the last few months that cleared that up?
I go to the homepage. Zero screenshots. I go to the User Experience page. Zero screenshots. I even go to Design Principles under the UX page. Zero screenshots.
Talking about mobile phone design is like dancing about architecture. Show the thing or bust.
I type these words on my year old Sailfish device. I had 2 other ones for roughly 10 years altogether.
The UI is astonishingly polished. It has not changed a lot for 10 years, but still nice to use. There is e.g. the tutorial video that comes installed on every device. Sorry, probably won't have time to share it later, I have a funeral to organize when I get out of bed. Maybe some other user can if it's not on Youtube.
The biggest problem areas IMHO:
- No hardware that meets my reqirements. The current one is too big for my pockets / my taste. It's not very good HW either, in the period when Sony Xperia were supported the situation was different. Even the original Sailfish phone over 10 years ago was relatively better at the time.
- Predictive keyboard is gone. I understand it's a licensing issue that they cannot offer it anymore. Blame Apple and Google for killing all small players.
- There is a severe maintenance backlog in many places and it's probably also growing. The browser is based on Firefox with a 2 digit version number. It crashes on many bloat sites and Cloudflare blocks it for being too old. I severly hope it won't crash now before I click reply. (I guess most users use a Browser on the Android compatibility environment)
I understood your point. As a long time user I am not familiar with their Web site. I suffer from their lack of technical resources. But I have no doubt they also have a lack of marketing resources. They are just too few people.
It says there is no license for 10 V yet. Have not looked into the details for a long time, but I guess the reason for that is that it's considered beta with too many bugs / features not working?
Homepage has dozens of screenshots as well as descriptions. Submitted link isn't the homepage but '/info'. That said screencasts will've been even better because for long-time a distinction/advantage Sailfish had over Android/iOS was being heavily gesture-based.
I've been using SailfishOS since 2014. Jolla 1, Xperia X, Xperia XA2 and currently Xperia 10III. I also have used Android phones and iPhones at work.
For some people the downsides are lack of apps. The few Android apps I use work just fine with the current hardware. Sadly I still have to use WhatsApp for a while, but for Signal there is a native app, WhisperFish.
The main thing to me is that SailfishOS is a Linux on your pocket. You can ssh into it, sync stuff with rsync or syncthing, edit your stuff with vim, have cron do stuff, or what ever you like. My old phones I use as remote sensors now.
There was a point that I tried to switch to iPhone. I struggled for a long time to get on par with the usability that I had with SFOS. I came pretty close, but the card house of different apps I had to build was pretty unreliable.
My phone is also my wifi hotspot. If I turn on vpn on my phone, then all the traffic from every connected device goes via vpn. I couldn't get iPhone to do this.
The team behind SailfishOS is pretty small, and regrettably shows in many areas. But still for me the clear winner of these three. It's not for everyone, but if you know your way around Linux it's great :)
So, not an Android or iPhone killer, but a good solid platform. The newest version 5.0.0.71 came out just a few days ago.
SailfishOS and the Jolla One were good (awesome usability) But the integration of Android was a horribly failure. It is like WINE, half working applications preventing native ports of quality. I left the boat.
After that Jolla failed with the tablet. Then they didn’t deliver a successor device for Jolla One and provided SailfishOS only as aftermarket OS. You remember the Android problem from above? The hardware of others, without official support? That is calling for problems.
And to make everything worse Jolla started a cooperation with Russia in 2015. According to Wikipedia they quit it in 2021.
Hint about compatibility and APIs
Never try to be compatible to an environment which doesn’t want to maintain interoperability with you.
Why games on Windows ship their own C++ Redistributable? Well, the same problem. And for the very same reason macOS app bundles come with a lot libraries and we still see a lot updates after every macOS release.
A lot of known issues can be avoided with more experience and cooperation before changes happen.
Before anybody mentions Proton. Because always somebody mentions Proton?
Proton is WINE. But maintained by Valve. Which requires a lot resources of Valve (not of the users). But the key is Steam! Valve is controlling the Steam store.
It is still bad and Valve shall press hard on native ports (e.g. Linux only Steam Awards). Reducing the long term workload for Valve. WINE is not a solution and remains a workaround. That is why we use Inkscape and not Adobe.
PS: Remember when Apple dropped iOS 32-Bit? And PPC? And the classic APIs? Microsoft is trying to remain bug compatible. The problem? They’re bug compatible! My thinking is similar to Torvalds, Linux, GNU (GLIBC/GLIBC++, Systemd and Wayland shall strive for compatibility when possible. Users love compatibility. Programmers love compatibility. But it is hard work. It becomes difficult when security implications are involved. As long only re-compilation is need for compatibility I’m fine. When we need to adapt code I’m getting unhappy.
People say that. Don’t call out the bad examples (there are some!). The never mention the good examples?
ioQuake3 - still work's
CS2 - still works
HL1, HL2, CS1,CSGO - still works
Unrailed - still works?
UT2003 - there it is getting hard, unmaintained since ca. 2003. But it is doable if you want it.
Quake3 - same as above.
Most bad ports were made by inexperienced developers. And honestly, these people need to learn! Especially Windows developers which aren’t Linux users are causing the problems. Linking weird 3rd party libraries which aren’t itself is a receipt for disaster. Which indicates planing mistakes in early stages. A bad sign is when they start to package for specific distributions…run as fast as you can.
I would look to applaud the high quality work id and Valve or Daedalic. Weirdly Microsoft ships a port of Minecraft. Valve now ships the Linux-Runtime to ease ports. And Flatpak allows developers which want to package itself (weird hill to die on…) doing it.
There are plans now in 2025 to work on this slowly. A few apps have recently been opened up. More are coming. So it is underway.
In 2015 Jolla were bought by Russian owners. They didn't understand open source or free software, they just wanted something for the Russian market.
In 2021 these ties were broken, but it took a long time since the Russian owners didn't respond in any way. It is only two years or there about that they are on their own feet again. They are still severely understaffed.
Don't know 100% sure. But would dare to claim most UI apps are still closed source. All the basic libraries and probably most daemons are open source. In the HW adaptation it looks bad again, but there Sailfish is not to blame.
The Android environment is completely different now. The old one stopped at 4.4 for many years. The new one is version 13. Problem was the kernel. Not something Sailfish as a small company could really control.
Ah, SailfishOS; the zombie of mobile device OS. Even longtime supporters (endusers) turned away b/c of little supported HW. And even if, then not all features.
It's Maemo and webOS all over again.
> The main thing to me is that SailfishOS is a Linux on your pocket. You can ssh into it, sync stuff with rsync or syncthing, edit your stuff with vim, have cron do stuff, or what ever you like. My old phones I use as remote sensors now.
I don't use the cron part, but you can deffo do all things w/o hassle on a regular Android thingy. These arguments for "Linux in your pockets" have long, umm, sailed?
> There was a point that I tried to switch to iPhone. I struggled for a long time to get on par with the usability that I had with SFOS. I came pretty close, but the card house of different apps I had to build was pretty unreliable.
IMHO iOS is for mongos / simpletons that just use apps casually. Just look at their keyboard implementation, the cursor positioning and where characters / digits are accessed drives me crazy! Don't know if Apple permits 3rd party keyboards to be installed, i have to live with this shitbox as-is as it's a company device.
I have been using SailfishOS phones as my main driver for ten years now. Some random, personal, possibly uninformed thoughts:
- It is not for everyone. Some Linux experience and willingness to tinker with it is helpful.
- Despite the many limitations, I love the UI, the spirit, the platform, and the community. I fear the day where I have to switch to a different OS.
- Many Android apps can be run via the AlienDalvik/AppSupport middleware. However, raw BLE is not supported. Thus, most e-scooter apps won't work. My banking app runs okay-ish.
- Google Play Store and Google Play Services can be installed by following non-trivial tutorials. I don't use them.
- The hardware abstraction layer that makes proprietary Android drivers work with SailfishOS is cool.
- QML and C++/Python/JS allow for easy, rapid app development. The custom widgets have a unique, consistent, simple style.
- As most of the UI is written in QML, it is possible to adjust and extend most of the UI shell and the base applications just by editing these resource files on the phone. For example, one can add additional widgets to the lock screen or change animation speeds.
- A nice tool, Patch Manager allows transparently and reversibly applying such modifications. This is so cool, even though the patches often have to be adapted for each major OS version.
- Jolla, the Finnish company behind SailfishOS is tiny and had to let go a lot of engineers and supporting staff a few years ago. Development has slowed down significantly.
- There are about two dozen very active developers in the community who write awesome apps. There are native clients for Discord (no voice/video), Signal, Telegram, Slack, Mastodon, Hacker News, etc.
- Unfortunately, the browser is stuck with outdated Gecko (despite heroic efforts by a developer who upgraded it from ESR 78 to ESR 91 [1]).
- Only a few smartphones are supported by SailfishOS - either officially supported by Jolla (e.g., some Sony phones and some Jolla-branded ones) or supported via community ports. Often the hardware support is a little bit buggy.
EDIT: of course, if you visit the forums, you will see quite some criticism of Jolla - and some of it is well deserved. It would be great if there were better hardware, fewer bugs, better support for Android apps, etc.
Personally, I feel that Jolla is really trying to make SailfishOS better but that they lack really stable sources of income and have made some less-than-ideal decisions in hindsight. The best solution would be to get EU funding for stabilizing the platform and finding a business model that generates recurring income from large organizations. Selling to private customers without being able to extract recurring income and being dependent on badly-documented hardware is not going to work.
> Jolla, the Finnish company behind SailfishOS is tiny and had to let go a lot of engineers and supporting staff a few years ago. Development has slowed down significantly.
Many years ago I backed the Jolla Tablet, which never shipped and they never gave me a refund. At the time the company kept pretending like things were perfectly fine with every update right until they let everyone know that the project was being cancelled. There was zero transparency and accountability, and from that day I vowed to never support this company ever again. I would've been fine if the project had failed and they had been transparent and honest about their ongoing struggles with every update, but the complete lack of transparency was too much for me.
I don't know if the values and leadership at Jolla have changed since then, but it's not a company that I would trust to deliver and communicate honestly in good faith.
Not just the lack of transparency, they went bankrupt after the tablet fiasco (never refunded most of the people) and bought by some investment firm connections to the Russian state (not the thing you want from a privacy-friendly product / system) what they tried to keep secret.
AFAIK they have bought by some other company (again) since then, but they have basically nothing. Most of their Sailfish OS is actually closed source (like AOSP vs all the apps from Google), they don't have any hardware, they just re-flash some phone from Sony.
I had high hopes for them, but now wouldn't even touch them with a stick. Pixel with GrapheneOS seems to be a much better choice and maybe even closer to their original ideologies.
And yet Sailfish is a mature mobile OS, sufficient in many cases to be a daily driver, and an essential EU-based alternative to the Apple/Google monopoly. So there's that...
On a more superficial front, the UI is far ahead of both iOS and Android. Complaining about it being closed-source misses the point: the platform is Linux, and other than the proprietary front-end, everything else in Sailfish is wide open to hacking and independent development. So there's that too...
Since 2017 the company has gone through bankruptcy and re-launched.
It should be remembered that kickstarter / crowdfunded ventures, as with any other, are speculative and risky. A good-faith effort to deliver on spec is itself credible, and the landscape is littered with the husks of far more failures, especially in the mobile space, including from former (and current) giants: RIM, Palm, Microsoft, Mozilla, Canonical, off the top of my head). Google and Apple are the only present significant OS options standing, Apple (again) and Samsung dominate hardware, though there's increasing competition largely from China.
FWIW, I actually received my Jolla Tablet (albeit delayed). Your are right that Jolla is sometimes less transparent and professional than one would expect.
However, I realize that Jolla is also under much more scrutiny by the community than other tech companies, and some people demand ridiculous levels of transparency/quality/features.
I don't think that expecting to get the product you pay for (even if it's just crowdfunding) is too much? Or putting them under too much scrutiny? I don't think people expect less from any other tech company? It's just really basic stuff.
I don't mean be rude, but outside the SV bubble, funding is extremely hard and when companies are on the brink "ethics" becomes a luxury you can't really afford.
That's not an argument for not complaining against what was done, but given what they're doing - fighting two Goliaths that have 10000x the resources, I just wish people would give them another chance.
Funnily enough the only viable deployment was AuroraOS in Russia , which they cut ties with after the war started (pretty shortsighted IMO) as the equivalent US ops merely paused their operations with options for future return.
I think Google only stopped monetization of play store from Visa/MC CC ban , while maintianing their operations there.
Meanwhile the sailfish guys set their largest successful deployment on fire with no recourse for reapprochment once the peace returns. As im thinking the RU market would be drifting more towards Chines tech ala HarmonyOS etc if they want alternatives to Android/IOS.
It's an open source project that nobody is getting rich off of, so voluntarily cutting ties with the Russian market doesn't present the sort of moral dilemma that TAM-obsessed, locked-down, for-profit OSes worry about.
Not fully open-source though, as far as i understood it some of the important GUI, android compat bits are propreity and thus need licensing so no easy way to function without them as opposed to the linux kernel.So i think they are in a very similar postion to android techstack wise , its just their biz model requires direct licensing rather than the ad subsidised android.
On another note i think this was the rationale for risc-v moving to europe (avoid the geopolitical) so anyone regardless can utilize its designs.
'In Europe' , as noted American ios/androis and their stores still work .At a reduced capacity yeah , but ready to restore links when the time comes around.Ditto for all other major brands (US) even though they arent issuing press releases.
From a purely biz perspective they could have gone 'yeah were pausing until blah blah ..' instead of salting the earth on one of their largest/succeesful deployments.
Techbros are bowing down to Trump and the rise of fascism in the US. Why don’t you think they would do the same for Putin the second the geopolitical winds turn around?
Reminds me of a joke - paraphrasing: someone from the US is speaking to someone from the Soviet Union and at some point the conversation mentions Soviet propaganda. The US person asks “you have propaganda?”.
(the punchline in case my terrible paraphrasing doesn’t make it clear is that the Soviet person is aware they are swimming in propaganda, while the US person is totally oblivious to their own gov’s one).
There’s a slight difference between whatever is going on in EU/US, even at its worst (and it’s getting plenty bad in the US!), and countries like Russia and North Korea. Attempts to make these sound comparable betray a silly worldview, that - coincidentally? - echoes RU propaganda points.
I currently have hopes / am watching Apostrophy who are building on top of Graphene but at least they acknowledge that people need Google Play and are attempting to support that while not sacrificing the entire device to privacy issues. https://www.apostrophy.ch
Only Android needs Google Play. The thrust of this post is that there's a third alternative which is neither iOS nor Android - and that's a killer feature.
Now it's up to capricious EU leadership whether to support a sovereign OS, including mandating that banks and other institutions open up their requirements to use solely US-controlled devices.
Sailfish OS looks nice. but i am not sure if their strategie for applications is the way to go. Applications need to be specifically built for Sailfish OS with their IDE which uses Qt.
That means you can't run just any linux software on it.
I tried this briefly on a pine phone ~2 years ago as I was going through the different options trying to see if there was something viable. It was useless then, the phone barely worked, and I’m pretty low maintenance, I basically just wanted mobile date, wifi, email, and browser. I don’t really remember sailfish specifically as I was quickly cycling thought the options but I know I tried it and found it unsuitable.
P.S. unless there is a sailfish browser that ships separately with a different OS and I’m remembering that.
P.P.S. I would love a Linux phone that lets me take calls and has mobile data, wifi, web browsing and GPS/navigation. I don’t care about apps other than navigation. AFAIK there is not currently something that fits the bill and works out of the box.
From other comments in this thread though it seems to be stuck on quite old versions of ESR though. Seems like it took until about September 2024 to go from a mid-2020 version (78) to a late-2021 version (91) according to this [1].
I don’t have any first-hand experience but from the comment that linked that blog, and the site itself, it’s not clear whether the browser engine has been updated since…
Afaik the problem is the lack of embedding API in the Firefox core, so they have to adapt their patches every time they need to update Firefox version.
This is also why you see Chome being used as a core in all kinds of applications and frameworks - AFAIK it has the necessary API for this.
As cool as this is there won't be an European alternative as long as all the apps you'd want to use on a smartphone require either Google Play or the Apple App store.
Can it run all of the kinds of apps that people (in the EU/US markets, which is relevant to the discussion at hand) actually want to run? SalifishOS doesn't even do that, at least not for me.
If I remember correctly they have had a translation layer for android apps since they launched. But it's similar to what Apple has done with Rosetta 2 where it getting phased out for native apps only.
The will to create an OS is 0.0001% of the problem. There are tens of thousands of applications that people need to use that exist only for iPhone and Android.
There are dozens of functional mobile OSes. And OS isn’t useful unless it has application support for the tasks people want to accomplish, though.
I believe thats being phased out slowly to be native app only with their multidevice HarmonyOSNext (mobile/pc). Once the major apps move over , last bits of linux will be excised.
Access to the Play Store requires the proprietary Google Play Services code, so I doubt this has it. The alternative would be installing apps via APK files.
According to Wikipedia,there are apps that provide an emulated Android environment ("Easy Abroad", "Droitong"), they're incomplete and glitchy, and a lot of important apps won't run at all (including banking apps and streaming services).
I used Sailfish ten years ago or more, and loved it. But I gave up hope on getting it to run on many devices, as well as access to a good Android emulation layer that I could use for "utility" apps like Uber or whatever.
My impression was that this platform was only becoming less and less viable. Other problems: it's proprietary and only really runs well on any phone you've ever heard of if it's on top of an Android kernel with some kind of hardware abstraction layer.
It is not using Android kernel - it uses a Linux kernel with android features enabled and compile time & runs Android binary drivers for hardware that has no native Linux driver via a binary adaptation layer called libhybris (also used by some Ubuntu Touch devices).
The Android emulation layer nowadays runs in a container that talks to the Android bits in the kernel and to the blobs via libhybris.
What distinguishes, say, a mobile OS from a more traditional desktop OS?
What would not be acceptable in a tuned/configured Linux / Windows OS on a smaller-form-factor touch- and voice-enabled device?
I'm excepting the obvious issue raised elsewhere of closed app stores and the tendency for ever more interactions (commercial, government, educational, institutional) to rely on these. That discussion has been had many times and is if I may suggest relevant, but stale.
I am not a fan anymore I used it for over a year on a XPERIA XA2. It's usable but barely so. The Android layer usually craps out with heavier apps or crawls to a halt. Most of the native apps are really basic I would compare them to early Windows Phone apps in functionality and UX. The UX itself is an odd mix of really intuitive and absolute horrible. It seems like they are missing focus and the felt development stalled for some years now. I hope plasma or gnome get more momentum because this isn't a viable alternative for 90% of smartphone users. Meego was better and I don't understand why they pivoted in the direction they are going now. It's certainly opinionated.
Damn i know we need this competition hard, but also needs so much scrutiny about who is running it. For some reason i had written this os off a few years ago i dont even remember why now
make it so that I can dock it and use it as a full fat OS on a desktop. If they wanna market this as an open phone, they need to make it first class as a primary computing device. so far only samsung is willing to enter this territory with a glorified chromebook.
if I could install the rust toolchain and vscode on it and use it in a customizable desktop environemnt by plugging it into a USBC monitor, you bet I'd buy it. Id happily pay 1-2k+ euros for it.
Sadly as is, it functionally does less than my locked down iphone so whats the point?
That would be nice, plug in usb-c to a display and keyboard.
But there's another way, can't someone implement their own implementation of the core google services apis and then you can just load a regular app off the app store and run it? Google would absolutely want to block this as their control and monopoly depends on it. But it shouldn't be against the law.
It's obvious, so it means someone must have tried and it was not reasonably possible.
Mhm, this is a proprietary OS developed by a dilapidated company… Here is another OS sharing the Nokia/MeeGo heritage, except fully open source and actively developed (not ready for general use either, AFAICT [yet]): https://nemomobile.net/
I would seriously consider SailfishOS if it shipped on decent (recent) hardware that was available in the US. The last good experience I had with it was on the Xperia XA2, but that hardware was turned into ewaste by the VoLTE requirements of US carriers. Although they claim to run on more recent Xperia phones, they don't have full hardware support, and aren't on the most recent models. If I'm going to pay for a phone OS and hardware to support it, I want some assurance it won't be total jank.
Well you'll need to talk to your monopolistic carriers then. US mobile innovation is dead for the foreseeable future due to them, all new innovation is happening in China and other SE Asian markets.
You just need to be a good consumer and buy that iPhone that Verizon orders you to have with their blessing.
Carriers in the US restricted the phones people used in the 00s and early 10s, back when there were short model whitelists, CDMA networks, and radios with only a few bands… but not so much today. Global market GSM phones activate pretty much on any US carrier just fine today.
2/3g deprecation and VoLTE is precisely because US carriers are pushing forward with new tech.
What you are describing is much more accurate of the US cell carriers before the iPhone. I remember paying $20/mo (to the carrier) for a terrible mail application on a feature phone. The iPhone's AT&T deal saved us from that situation.
What are some of the innovations you're referring to?
> before the iPhone
And MVNOs.
Huh? You think that the VoLTE requirement is something unique to the US? What new innovations are you referring to by the way?
I think you can install it on Xperia X 10 III, and IV (which I have) is in a long-toothed beta.
I have been using Xperia 10 III as my main phone for years with Sailfish OS just fine.
Looks like they also support up to Xperia 10 V & there is the Jolla C2 community device:
https://docs.sailfishos.org/Support/Supported_Devices/
I remember not too long ago seeing a similar table from Jolla that showed these devices, but also included a breakdown of specific hardware features that were not fully working. Was there a major update in the last few months that cleared that up?
Not following things in great detail, but I would dare to answer: Zero updates to the situation you describe for roughly a year.
Gosh I miss my XA2.
XA2 was the perfect fit for my hand. I cracked the screen pretty badly, but now it has a second life as a timelapse shooter :)
Recently I bought another to have a spare. Cost me 50 €.
The battery life was insane for the time.
This is a mobile OS, right?
I go to the homepage. Zero screenshots. I go to the User Experience page. Zero screenshots. I even go to Design Principles under the UX page. Zero screenshots.
Talking about mobile phone design is like dancing about architecture. Show the thing or bust.
I type these words on my year old Sailfish device. I had 2 other ones for roughly 10 years altogether.
The UI is astonishingly polished. It has not changed a lot for 10 years, but still nice to use. There is e.g. the tutorial video that comes installed on every device. Sorry, probably won't have time to share it later, I have a funeral to organize when I get out of bed. Maybe some other user can if it's not on Youtube.
The biggest problem areas IMHO:
- No hardware that meets my reqirements. The current one is too big for my pockets / my taste. It's not very good HW either, in the period when Sony Xperia were supported the situation was different. Even the original Sailfish phone over 10 years ago was relatively better at the time.
- Predictive keyboard is gone. I understand it's a licensing issue that they cannot offer it anymore. Blame Apple and Google for killing all small players.
- There is a severe maintenance backlog in many places and it's probably also growing. The browser is based on Firefox with a 2 digit version number. It crashes on many bloat sites and Cloudflare blocks it for being too old. I severly hope it won't crash now before I click reply. (I guess most users use a Browser on the Android compatibility environment)
My point is not that it’s bad UX or not, my point is the website is bad at selling me their product and could never convince me that it’s good.
I understood your point. As a long time user I am not familiar with their Web site. I suffer from their lack of technical resources. But I have no doubt they also have a lack of marketing resources. They are just too few people.
Sony Xperia 10 series devices are still supported - including Xperia 10 V which is quite recent.
It says there is no license for 10 V yet. Have not looked into the details for a long time, but I guess the reason for that is that it's considered beta with too many bugs / features not working?
There is a beta OS release which I think can be used for free. As far as I know there are still hardware issues with it.
Homepage has dozens of screenshots as well as descriptions. Submitted link isn't the homepage but '/info'. That said screencasts will've been even better because for long-time a distinction/advantage Sailfish had over Android/iOS was being heavily gesture-based.
Videos and pictures here https://commerce.jolla.com/products/jolla-community-phone
Are there cheap devices running it (< €250?)
I guess you could get a (not much) used C2 at that price. Many users have given up. Ask in the forum.
I just watched two videos and saw multiple screenshots. lol.
I've been using SailfishOS since 2014. Jolla 1, Xperia X, Xperia XA2 and currently Xperia 10III. I also have used Android phones and iPhones at work.
For some people the downsides are lack of apps. The few Android apps I use work just fine with the current hardware. Sadly I still have to use WhatsApp for a while, but for Signal there is a native app, WhisperFish.
The main thing to me is that SailfishOS is a Linux on your pocket. You can ssh into it, sync stuff with rsync or syncthing, edit your stuff with vim, have cron do stuff, or what ever you like. My old phones I use as remote sensors now.
There was a point that I tried to switch to iPhone. I struggled for a long time to get on par with the usability that I had with SFOS. I came pretty close, but the card house of different apps I had to build was pretty unreliable.
My phone is also my wifi hotspot. If I turn on vpn on my phone, then all the traffic from every connected device goes via vpn. I couldn't get iPhone to do this.
The team behind SailfishOS is pretty small, and regrettably shows in many areas. But still for me the clear winner of these three. It's not for everyone, but if you know your way around Linux it's great :)
So, not an Android or iPhone killer, but a good solid platform. The newest version 5.0.0.71 came out just a few days ago.
SailfishOS and the Jolla One were good (awesome usability) But the integration of Android was a horribly failure. It is like WINE, half working applications preventing native ports of quality. I left the boat.
After that Jolla failed with the tablet. Then they didn’t deliver a successor device for Jolla One and provided SailfishOS only as aftermarket OS. You remember the Android problem from above? The hardware of others, without official support? That is calling for problems.
And to make everything worse Jolla started a cooperation with Russia in 2015. According to Wikipedia they quit it in 2021.
Hint about compatibility and APIs
Never try to be compatible to an environment which doesn’t want to maintain interoperability with you.
Funny. This is the opposite of what https://blog.hiler.eu/win32-the-only-stable-abi/ states :D
And there's a lot going on with Proton and the Steam Deck, so I don't think this is a valid argument.
Why games on Windows ship their own C++ Redistributable? Well, the same problem. And for the very same reason macOS app bundles come with a lot libraries and we still see a lot updates after every macOS release.
A lot of known issues can be avoided with more experience and cooperation before changes happen.
Before anybody mentions Proton. Because always somebody mentions Proton?
Proton is WINE. But maintained by Valve. Which requires a lot resources of Valve (not of the users). But the key is Steam! Valve is controlling the Steam store.
It is still bad and Valve shall press hard on native ports (e.g. Linux only Steam Awards). Reducing the long term workload for Valve. WINE is not a solution and remains a workaround. That is why we use Inkscape and not Adobe.
PS: Remember when Apple dropped iOS 32-Bit? And PPC? And the classic APIs? Microsoft is trying to remain bug compatible. The problem? They’re bug compatible! My thinking is similar to Torvalds, Linux, GNU (GLIBC/GLIBC++, Systemd and Wayland shall strive for compatibility when possible. Users love compatibility. Programmers love compatibility. But it is hard work. It becomes difficult when security implications are involved. As long only re-compilation is need for compatibility I’m fine. When we need to adapt code I’m getting unhappy.
Sure, guess what is the most durable and long lasting ABI on Linux? Win32 via WINE.
> native ports
Native ports have huge problems as well. Most of them are hardly maintained and stop working years down the road.
People say that. Don’t call out the bad examples (there are some!). The never mention the good examples?
Most bad ports were made by inexperienced developers. And honestly, these people need to learn! Especially Windows developers which aren’t Linux users are causing the problems. Linking weird 3rd party libraries which aren’t itself is a receipt for disaster. Which indicates planing mistakes in early stages. A bad sign is when they start to package for specific distributions…run as fast as you can.I would look to applaud the high quality work id and Valve or Daedalic. Weirdly Microsoft ships a port of Minecraft. Valve now ships the Linux-Runtime to ease ports. And Flatpak allows developers which want to package itself (weird hill to die on…) doing it.
Does anyone know if Jolla ever published the full source-code? The promised back in 2013.
There are plans now in 2025 to work on this slowly. A few apps have recently been opened up. More are coming. So it is underway.
In 2015 Jolla were bought by Russian owners. They didn't understand open source or free software, they just wanted something for the Russian market.
In 2021 these ties were broken, but it took a long time since the Russian owners didn't respond in any way. It is only two years or there about that they are on their own feet again. They are still severely understaffed.
Don't know 100% sure. But would dare to claim most UI apps are still closed source. All the basic libraries and probably most daemons are open source. In the HW adaptation it looks bad again, but there Sailfish is not to blame.
Not openly published but they will send it to you on request.
Jolla made a lot of promises over the years....
Proton is based on Wine and is a major factor behind the success of Steamdeck and SteamOS.
Also Sailfish OS Android emulation is quite good, good or even the best one I used on the Android emulation front.
See the other comment. Because I knew somebody will mention Proton. Because always someone mentions Proton :)
PS: I'm rather sure Jolla never emulated Android.
The android support improved a lot such that all the apps I used worked there.
Thanks. Jolla stopped porting newer Android APIs to the Jolla One early. Which rendered the Android support quickly useless.
The Android environment is completely different now. The old one stopped at 4.4 for many years. The new one is version 13. Problem was the kernel. Not something Sailfish as a small company could really control.
Ah, SailfishOS; the zombie of mobile device OS. Even longtime supporters (endusers) turned away b/c of little supported HW. And even if, then not all features. It's Maemo and webOS all over again.
> The main thing to me is that SailfishOS is a Linux on your pocket. You can ssh into it, sync stuff with rsync or syncthing, edit your stuff with vim, have cron do stuff, or what ever you like. My old phones I use as remote sensors now.
I don't use the cron part, but you can deffo do all things w/o hassle on a regular Android thingy. These arguments for "Linux in your pockets" have long, umm, sailed?
> There was a point that I tried to switch to iPhone. I struggled for a long time to get on par with the usability that I had with SFOS. I came pretty close, but the card house of different apps I had to build was pretty unreliable.
IMHO iOS is for mongos / simpletons that just use apps casually. Just look at their keyboard implementation, the cursor positioning and where characters / digits are accessed drives me crazy! Don't know if Apple permits 3rd party keyboards to be installed, i have to live with this shitbox as-is as it's a company device.
That still exists? When I first heard of it many many years ago I had hopes for it. Never heard of it again. I see it is still on Qt5.
Qt 5.6 that too. Probably so that they can keep most of their user space closed source.
Yes, they've even come out with a phone, but it's only available in Europe[0]
[0] https://commerce.jolla.com/products/jolla-community-phone
Videos on that page have more information than the post's link.
My understanding is that it met some government requirements that Android did not. Niche for sure but useful in some contexts.
I have been using SailfishOS phones as my main driver for ten years now. Some random, personal, possibly uninformed thoughts:
- It is not for everyone. Some Linux experience and willingness to tinker with it is helpful.
- Despite the many limitations, I love the UI, the spirit, the platform, and the community. I fear the day where I have to switch to a different OS.
- Many Android apps can be run via the AlienDalvik/AppSupport middleware. However, raw BLE is not supported. Thus, most e-scooter apps won't work. My banking app runs okay-ish.
- Google Play Store and Google Play Services can be installed by following non-trivial tutorials. I don't use them.
- The hardware abstraction layer that makes proprietary Android drivers work with SailfishOS is cool.
- QML and C++/Python/JS allow for easy, rapid app development. The custom widgets have a unique, consistent, simple style.
- As most of the UI is written in QML, it is possible to adjust and extend most of the UI shell and the base applications just by editing these resource files on the phone. For example, one can add additional widgets to the lock screen or change animation speeds.
- A nice tool, Patch Manager allows transparently and reversibly applying such modifications. This is so cool, even though the patches often have to be adapted for each major OS version.
- Jolla, the Finnish company behind SailfishOS is tiny and had to let go a lot of engineers and supporting staff a few years ago. Development has slowed down significantly.
- There are about two dozen very active developers in the community who write awesome apps. There are native clients for Discord (no voice/video), Signal, Telegram, Slack, Mastodon, Hacker News, etc.
- Unfortunately, the browser is stuck with outdated Gecko (despite heroic efforts by a developer who upgraded it from ESR 78 to ESR 91 [1]).
- Only a few smartphones are supported by SailfishOS - either officially supported by Jolla (e.g., some Sony phones and some Jolla-branded ones) or supported via community ports. Often the hardware support is a little bit buggy.
EDIT: of course, if you visit the forums, you will see quite some criticism of Jolla - and some of it is well deserved. It would be great if there were better hardware, fewer bugs, better support for Android apps, etc. Personally, I feel that Jolla is really trying to make SailfishOS better but that they lack really stable sources of income and have made some less-than-ideal decisions in hindsight. The best solution would be to get EU funding for stabilizing the platform and finding a business model that generates recurring income from large organizations. Selling to private customers without being able to extract recurring income and being dependent on badly-documented hardware is not going to work.
[1] https://www.flypig.co.uk/?to=gecko&list_id=975&list=gecko
> Jolla, the Finnish company behind SailfishOS is tiny and had to let go a lot of engineers and supporting staff a few years ago. Development has slowed down significantly.
This is so sad and unfortunate to hear.
This feels like the sort of thing the EU should be giving grants to, especially now that digital sovereignty is something people started to care about
Many years ago I backed the Jolla Tablet, which never shipped and they never gave me a refund. At the time the company kept pretending like things were perfectly fine with every update right until they let everyone know that the project was being cancelled. There was zero transparency and accountability, and from that day I vowed to never support this company ever again. I would've been fine if the project had failed and they had been transparent and honest about their ongoing struggles with every update, but the complete lack of transparency was too much for me.
I don't know if the values and leadership at Jolla have changed since then, but it's not a company that I would trust to deliver and communicate honestly in good faith.
Not just the lack of transparency, they went bankrupt after the tablet fiasco (never refunded most of the people) and bought by some investment firm connections to the Russian state (not the thing you want from a privacy-friendly product / system) what they tried to keep secret.
AFAIK they have bought by some other company (again) since then, but they have basically nothing. Most of their Sailfish OS is actually closed source (like AOSP vs all the apps from Google), they don't have any hardware, they just re-flash some phone from Sony.
I had high hopes for them, but now wouldn't even touch them with a stick. Pixel with GrapheneOS seems to be a much better choice and maybe even closer to their original ideologies.
And yet Sailfish is a mature mobile OS, sufficient in many cases to be a daily driver, and an essential EU-based alternative to the Apple/Google monopoly. So there's that...
On a more superficial front, the UI is far ahead of both iOS and Android. Complaining about it being closed-source misses the point: the platform is Linux, and other than the proprietary front-end, everything else in Sailfish is wide open to hacking and independent development. So there's that too...
I'm not familiar with the background here.
There was a blog post committing to refunds given sufficient cashflow, posted in 2017:
<https://blog.jolla.com/summer-2017-ceo-update/>
HN discussion: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14637748>
It does appear that Jolla has shipped other products (SailfishOS, the Jolla Phone in 2013, some tablets, and others, see Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolla#Sailfish_OS_products>).
Since 2017 the company has gone through bankruptcy and re-launched.
It should be remembered that kickstarter / crowdfunded ventures, as with any other, are speculative and risky. A good-faith effort to deliver on spec is itself credible, and the landscape is littered with the husks of far more failures, especially in the mobile space, including from former (and current) giants: RIM, Palm, Microsoft, Mozilla, Canonical, off the top of my head). Google and Apple are the only present significant OS options standing, Apple (again) and Samsung dominate hardware, though there's increasing competition largely from China.
I can't recall how many tablets were shipped, but I was lucky enough to get mine.
FWIW, I actually received my Jolla Tablet (albeit delayed). Your are right that Jolla is sometimes less transparent and professional than one would expect. However, I realize that Jolla is also under much more scrutiny by the community than other tech companies, and some people demand ridiculous levels of transparency/quality/features.
I don't think that expecting to get the product you pay for (even if it's just crowdfunding) is too much? Or putting them under too much scrutiny? I don't think people expect less from any other tech company? It's just really basic stuff.
I don't mean be rude, but outside the SV bubble, funding is extremely hard and when companies are on the brink "ethics" becomes a luxury you can't really afford.
That's not an argument for not complaining against what was done, but given what they're doing - fighting two Goliaths that have 10000x the resources, I just wish people would give them another chance.
https://blog.jolla.com/jolla-tablet-closure/
Funnily enough the only viable deployment was AuroraOS in Russia , which they cut ties with after the war started (pretty shortsighted IMO) as the equivalent US ops merely paused their operations with options for future return. I think Google only stopped monetization of play store from Visa/MC CC ban , while maintianing their operations there. Meanwhile the sailfish guys set their largest successful deployment on fire with no recourse for reapprochment once the peace returns. As im thinking the RU market would be drifting more towards Chines tech ala HarmonyOS etc if they want alternatives to Android/IOS.
I suggest reading a bit about the brotherly relationship between Finland and Russia- it has not been exactly a Winter Wonderland.
Not to mention the most bloody war on European soil in a century - started by Russia.
It is a small company in a niche, they were just by trying to survive.
I've not used their OS but have been thinking for a while, and spent some time in their forums. I remember some dev saying this along those lines.
It's an open source project that nobody is getting rich off of, so voluntarily cutting ties with the Russian market doesn't present the sort of moral dilemma that TAM-obsessed, locked-down, for-profit OSes worry about.
AuroraOS was very much a commercial errand by Jolla Oy, not some open source volunteers hacking on it in their free time.
https://www-sttinfo-fi.translate.goog/tiedote/54712711/sailf...
Not fully open-source though, as far as i understood it some of the important GUI, android compat bits are propreity and thus need licensing so no easy way to function without them as opposed to the linux kernel.So i think they are in a very similar postion to android techstack wise , its just their biz model requires direct licensing rather than the ad subsidised android. On another note i think this was the rationale for risc-v moving to europe (avoid the geopolitical) so anyone regardless can utilize its designs.
Don’t be silly, nobody wants that rep.
'In Europe' , as noted American ios/androis and their stores still work .At a reduced capacity yeah , but ready to restore links when the time comes around.Ditto for all other major brands (US) even though they arent issuing press releases. From a purely biz perspective they could have gone 'yeah were pausing until blah blah ..' instead of salting the earth on one of their largest/succeesful deployments.
Techbros are bowing down to Trump and the rise of fascism in the US. Why don’t you think they would do the same for Putin the second the geopolitical winds turn around?
Reminds me of a joke - paraphrasing: someone from the US is speaking to someone from the Soviet Union and at some point the conversation mentions Soviet propaganda. The US person asks “you have propaganda?”.
(the punchline in case my terrible paraphrasing doesn’t make it clear is that the Soviet person is aware they are swimming in propaganda, while the US person is totally oblivious to their own gov’s one).
There’s a slight difference between whatever is going on in EU/US, even at its worst (and it’s getting plenty bad in the US!), and countries like Russia and North Korea. Attempts to make these sound comparable betray a silly worldview, that - coincidentally? - echoes RU propaganda points.
I currently have hopes / am watching Apostrophy who are building on top of Graphene but at least they acknowledge that people need Google Play and are attempting to support that while not sacrificing the entire device to privacy issues. https://www.apostrophy.ch
Only Android needs Google Play. The thrust of this post is that there's a third alternative which is neither iOS nor Android - and that's a killer feature.
Now it's up to capricious EU leadership whether to support a sovereign OS, including mandating that banks and other institutions open up their requirements to use solely US-controlled devices.
Sailfish OS looks nice. but i am not sure if their strategie for applications is the way to go. Applications need to be specifically built for Sailfish OS with their IDE which uses Qt.
That means you can't run just any linux software on it.
You can run any CLI software in the terminal emulator ;) You might need to build it, if it is so rare that no binary is readibly available.
Yeah, with GUIs thats a different story...
I tried this briefly on a pine phone ~2 years ago as I was going through the different options trying to see if there was something viable. It was useless then, the phone barely worked, and I’m pretty low maintenance, I basically just wanted mobile date, wifi, email, and browser. I don’t really remember sailfish specifically as I was quickly cycling thought the options but I know I tried it and found it unsuitable.
P.S. unless there is a sailfish browser that ships separately with a different OS and I’m remembering that.
P.P.S. I would love a Linux phone that lets me take calls and has mobile data, wifi, web browsing and GPS/navigation. I don’t care about apps other than navigation. AFAIK there is not currently something that fits the bill and works out of the box.
Ubuntu Touch does all of this. https://www.ubuntu-touch.io/
The Sailfish browser is using Firefox rendering core BTW, so you might have used it elsewhere. ;-)
From other comments in this thread though it seems to be stuck on quite old versions of ESR though. Seems like it took until about September 2024 to go from a mid-2020 version (78) to a late-2021 version (91) according to this [1].
I don’t have any first-hand experience but from the comment that linked that blog, and the site itself, it’s not clear whether the browser engine has been updated since…
1. https://www.flypig.co.uk/?to=gecko&list_id=975&list=gecko
Afaik the problem is the lack of embedding API in the Firefox core, so they have to adapt their patches every time they need to update Firefox version.
This is also why you see Chome being used as a core in all kinds of applications and frameworks - AFAIK it has the necessary API for this.
As cool as this is there won't be an European alternative as long as all the apps you'd want to use on a smartphone require either Google Play or the Apple App store.
Huawei just created new OS and removed all traces of Android and Linux. Just like that. If there is will, it is possible.
Can it run all of the kinds of apps that people (in the EU/US markets, which is relevant to the discussion at hand) actually want to run? SalifishOS doesn't even do that, at least not for me.
If I remember correctly they have had a translation layer for android apps since they launched. But it's similar to what Apple has done with Rosetta 2 where it getting phased out for native apps only.
The will to create an OS is 0.0001% of the problem. There are tens of thousands of applications that people need to use that exist only for iPhone and Android.
There are dozens of functional mobile OSes. And OS isn’t useful unless it has application support for the tasks people want to accomplish, though.
No, the phone variant of HarmonyOS runs on top of a Linux kernel.
I believe thats being phased out slowly to be native app only with their multidevice HarmonyOSNext (mobile/pc). Once the major apps move over , last bits of linux will be excised.
Nope, the new version removed it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HarmonyOS_NEXT
Indeed, I did not see that!
...if there is will, a nice state sponsor and an already existing effective infrastructure.
Europe has none of the 3.
Aren't you basically describing a chicken and egg problem?
The EU can address that issue through regulation and competition requirements.
it does run some sort of Android emulation layer
It runs Android apps. Presumably, it has access to the Play store in some capacity, or a viable alternative.
Access to the Play Store requires the proprietary Google Play Services code, so I doubt this has it. The alternative would be installing apps via APK files.
According to Wikipedia,there are apps that provide an emulated Android environment ("Easy Abroad", "Droitong"), they're incomplete and glitchy, and a lot of important apps won't run at all (including banking apps and streaming services).
I used Sailfish ten years ago or more, and loved it. But I gave up hope on getting it to run on many devices, as well as access to a good Android emulation layer that I could use for "utility" apps like Uber or whatever.
My impression was that this platform was only becoming less and less viable. Other problems: it's proprietary and only really runs well on any phone you've ever heard of if it's on top of an Android kernel with some kind of hardware abstraction layer.
The Android emulation layer is quite good and it runs on many mass market Xperia phones from Sony:
https://docs.sailfishos.org/Support/Supported_Devices/
It is not using Android kernel - it uses a Linux kernel with android features enabled and compile time & runs Android binary drivers for hardware that has no native Linux driver via a binary adaptation layer called libhybris (also used by some Ubuntu Touch devices).
The Android emulation layer nowadays runs in a container that talks to the Android bits in the kernel and to the blobs via libhybris.
afaik Uber can be used perfectly with the website.
They should open source their UI layer.
Why? It's a commercial venture - how would they feed their developers?
What distinguishes, say, a mobile OS from a more traditional desktop OS?
What would not be acceptable in a tuned/configured Linux / Windows OS on a smaller-form-factor touch- and voice-enabled device?
I'm excepting the obvious issue raised elsewhere of closed app stores and the tendency for ever more interactions (commercial, government, educational, institutional) to rely on these. That discussion has been had many times and is if I may suggest relevant, but stale.
Read this as to dominate mobile OSes, and thought that’s a different Linux attitude
I am not a fan anymore I used it for over a year on a XPERIA XA2. It's usable but barely so. The Android layer usually craps out with heavier apps or crawls to a halt. Most of the native apps are really basic I would compare them to early Windows Phone apps in functionality and UX. The UX itself is an odd mix of really intuitive and absolute horrible. It seems like they are missing focus and the felt development stalled for some years now. I hope plasma or gnome get more momentum because this isn't a viable alternative for 90% of smartphone users. Meego was better and I don't understand why they pivoted in the direction they are going now. It's certainly opinionated.
Man I wish more dev work was put into the mobile Gnome Shell. It's so, so close to being there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6vCWFleBHk
Last I heard of them they filed for bankruptcy. Are they back then?
Yes, article in Finnish: <https://www.is.fi/taloussanomat/art-2000010451277.html>
Via Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolla#History>
I thin tjey did that twice by this point and it both cases survived. :-)
They're about to make a new phone: https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/next-gen-jolla-phone/23882
The voting results/behavior makes one weep. "Winner was Fingerprint after 9 rounds" in the additional wishlist category.
Damn i know we need this competition hard, but also needs so much scrutiny about who is running it. For some reason i had written this os off a few years ago i dont even remember why now
I was really excited about the Jolla, which fizzled out before I could grab one.
The deghoulgled cellphone sphere (us) is pretty depressing if affordability is a factor.
I thought this was vaporware?
there's an easy roadmap to make this popular.
make it so that I can dock it and use it as a full fat OS on a desktop. If they wanna market this as an open phone, they need to make it first class as a primary computing device. so far only samsung is willing to enter this territory with a glorified chromebook.
if I could install the rust toolchain and vscode on it and use it in a customizable desktop environemnt by plugging it into a USBC monitor, you bet I'd buy it. Id happily pay 1-2k+ euros for it.
Sadly as is, it functionally does less than my locked down iphone so whats the point?
That would be nice, plug in usb-c to a display and keyboard.
But there's another way, can't someone implement their own implementation of the core google services apis and then you can just load a regular app off the app store and run it? Google would absolutely want to block this as their control and monopoly depends on it. But it shouldn't be against the law.
It's obvious, so it means someone must have tried and it was not reasonably possible.
> make it so that I can dock it and use it as a full fat OS on a desktop.
Here you go: https://puri.sm/posts/my-first-year-of-librem-5-convergence/