Edit: For those who don't know the relation. Tata[1] is a conglomerate, which owns both Tata Motors (Jaguar, Land Rover) and also TCS (Tata Consultancy Services)
> M&S chair, told MPs that hackers had used “sophisticated impersonation” to gain entry “involving a third party.”
20 bucks says this sophisticated impersonation was social engineering a $5/hour outsourced customer support employee
> The attack is expected to lower operating profits by up to £300mn this year.
that's not counting the reputation and brand damage. M&S is seen as a premium retailer and this whole hack made them seem utterly incompetent and unreliable
> had decided to opt for another service provider after the process had completed
i wonder where this other provider is based. i think i'm gonna place another 20 bucks on this.
> The retailer continues to use the Indian group for other services.
>20 bucks says this sophisticated impersonation was social engineering a $5/hour outsourced customer support employee
0 bucks says this below list of data breaches is much much more devastating. 0 bucks, because I don't have to bet on it, unlike you, because it's true:
>This is a list of reports about data breaches, using data compiled from various sources, including press reports, government news releases, and mainstream news articles. The list includes those involving the theft or compromise of 30,000 or more records, although many smaller breaches occur continually. Breaches of large organizations where the number of records is still unknown are also listed. In addition, the various methods used in the breaches are listed, with hacking being the most common.
>Most reported breaches are in North America, at least in part because of relatively strict disclosure laws in North American countries.[citation needed] 95% of data breaches come from government, retail, or technology industries.[1] It is estimated that the average cost of a data breach will be over $150 million by 2020, with the global annual cost forecast to be $2.1 trillion.[2][3] As a result of data breaches, it is estimated that in first half of 2018 alone, about 4.5 billion records were exposed.[4] In 2019, a collection of 2.7 billion identity records, consisting of 774 million unique email addresses and 21 million unique passwords, was posted on the web for sale.[5] In January 2024, a data breach dubbed the "mother of all breaches" was uncovered.[6] Over 26 billion records, including some from Twitter, Adobe, Canva, LinkedIn, and Dropbox, were found in the database.[7][8] No organization immediately claimed responsibility.[9]
>In August 2024, one of the largest data security breaches was revealed. It involved the background check databroker, National Public Data and exposed the personal information of nearly 3 billion people.[10]
>that's not counting the reputation and brand damage. M&S is seen as a premium retailer and this whole hack made them seem utterly incompetent and unreliable
>>The retailer continues to use the Indian group for other services.
>lol.
>is seen
lol. a lot of things are seen as blah blah. doesn't mean they are blah blah.
google is seen as a world leading tech company. yet see how HNers regard them (except those desperate for FAANG salaries).
If they hired their vendors without due diligence, they may be incompetent and unreliable themselves. On the other hand:
>> M&S chair, told MPs that hackers had used “sophisticated impersonation” to gain entry “involving a third party.”
If the impersonation was sophisticated, maybe it was not so much the fault of TCS?
If it was a Western company, would you talk / think the same?
One of the problems with incompetence, of which there are many, is that it gives bad actors space to operate. From a security point of view I don’t think the distinction matters all that much.
That said, the situations I’ve head about were from affiliate ransomware attacks that didn’t make the news because the backup worked. It’s difficult to keep things secure from highly motivated internal bad actors. I’ve been told it’s an increasing trend but have not heard much about it publicly.
It's perfectly believable. Whether it is more believable or not is a toss up. If you employ such a large number of people there are bound to be a couple of bad apples, and unless you have very good internal processes and monitoring it isn't all that hard to imagine someone doing something they shouldn't be doing. But absent hard evidence that it happened that way it interesting speculation but no more than that, besides, it can be impossible to distinguish between the two even if you have evidence of an inside job that looks like incompetence!
> October 23, 2023: They confirm receipt and are working on taking action. After this date and up until January 2, 2024, there were various back and forth emails trying to get Tata Motors to revoke the AWS keys. I am not sure if something was lost in translation, but it took a lot of pestering and specific instructions to get it done.
Wow, they had to go out of their way and plead with Tata Motors to fix their own shit. I can only admire their patience. Can't say I would be that patient.
Sending it with AES encryption(with the key that the client has access to) makes it even worse, as someone knew this shouldn't be shared to client yet they shared it anyway.
It's a side effect of pay. Like every other company, you get what you pay for, and for organizations that view web security as a [edit:] Cost Center (eg. Tata Motors) there's no incentive to pay market rate for a Security Engineer - who in India can now demand $60k-100k TCs.
Heck, firms that provide offensive security capabilities to Indian PDs can pay $40k-50k after poaching a junior pentester or exploit developer from a PD.
I understand why someone might this this is a pay issue, but it's goes beyond that.
Culturually, doing something "well"(quality oriented, mindful of end-users) vs. "got it done" (transaction, pragmatic way of looking at things) is the heart of why outsourcing to many different geographical areas (India included) often results in something different than expected.
Also condemning every one in one part of the world as thinking one way is certainly not fair or true, but there are definitely unmistakable trends.
Pay should reward doing something well vs merely doing something. Of course, this would generally mean you need to pay more than the competitor which will happily pay for merely doing something. So yes it is about pay.
Also, Indian companies are competing with American and Israeli founded or funded companies and startups for the same talent.
If you are competent, instead of earning $15k TC working for an automotive company, you could demand $40k-70k in TC from an MNC or a well funded startup (assuming you have the skills to back it up) - and those are the numbers my portfolio companies use to target hiring in India, as well as what I used previously before I became a VC.
Western companies have the exact same problem though; I've dealt with plenty of incompetent people there too because the organization does not reward technical excellence and quality, so it is completely pragmatic for employees to focus their time on the things that are rewarded (engaging in politics, etc) instead.
During the startup/ZIRP era there might have been people doing the "right" thing because they had skin in the game thanks to stock options or they were paid just so fucking much that they didn't care about putting in the extra work. But as total comps go downward (coupled with inflation) the output's quality tends to regress to the minimum acceptable.
For example, most of the security portfolio that GCP provides is developed and product managed out of the Google Hyderabad office, as is a fairly major Israeli CNAPP product that starts with "A", a large CNAPP from a public Israeli-American security company that is directly positioned against Wiz, and a major security vuln mgmt and redteaming tool used by the DoD, GitHub, and Google. But all these employers pay $60k-130k TC for mid-career security professionals in India.
We scoop up anyone who is remotely competent at transnational firms or startups because we can afford to pay Western salaries, and traditional conglomerates in India largely do not care about web exploits unless they are a web platform first and foremost.
Tata Motors - being an automotive company - does not care about web development for the same reason GM doesn't as well: it isn't tangibly connected to revenue generation. As such, they will just contract it out to TCS (a Tata Group company, but both are independent of each other) at the lowest contract rate possible.
Sorry to be pedantic but I think you mean 'cost center', not loss leader (something sold at a loss to attract customers into your ecosystem/store). You are entirely right otherwise.
Yup, they said thank you and took action only because this was a US-based researcher. Had any Indian dared to do this they'd be in for a world of pain. Not through a lawsuit, but criminal charges.
I'm a cofounder of a data and identity security startup operating specifically in APAC.
Data security in india a joke.
I would argue even with DPDPA, RBI C-Site and cyber resilience framework from SEBI, it is just going to not happen here.
The list PAN card the blog is taking about is probably already leaked by some other services.
The recent flipkart cash on delivery scams [1] are example of how your personal information is just out there in wild in india, open for exploitation.
There are lot of who do security in good faith (often driven by compliance) and lot of them are our customers too but I hope to see rest of indian tech ecosystem take security seriously.
I've dealt with Indian companies for security sales and I'd say the newer generation of companies like Razorpay (YC W15) are decent at SecOps, but the older and more established companies suck at it and will continue to suck at it until there is a tangible regulatory incentive to enhance security postures.
It also appears to be a side effect of compensation - why would mid-career security professional want to earn ₹15 LPA TC working for a legacy corporation if they have the skills to land at a security MNC that can afford to pay ₹35-50 LPA in TC.
Ofc, it's us foreign investors who are able to afford those higher TCs ;) - especially if we can convert someone who was mid-career in the US but had to return to India due to family or visa issues.
It reminds me of how the Israeli security scene was 10-15 years ago, with similar problems around compensation and brain drain to MNC offices.
> September 1, 2023: Tata Motors shared with CERT-IN (who then shared with me) that the issues are remediated.
September 3, 2023: I confirm only 2/4 issues were remediated and the AWS keys were still present on the websites, and active.
October 22, 2023: After no updates and finding the AWS issues still not remediated, I send over some more specific steps on what must be done.
October 23, 2023: They confirm receipt and are working on taking action. After this date and up until January 2, 2024, there were various back and forth emails trying to get Tata Motors to revoke the AWS keys. I am not sure if something was lost in translation, but it took a lot of pestering and specific instructions to get it done.
Related: Jaguar Land Rover hack cost UK economy an estimated $2.5 billion, report says: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45668008
The 'tech' for both these is by guess who? TCS!
Edit: For those who don't know the relation. Tata[1] is a conglomerate, which owns both Tata Motors (Jaguar, Land Rover) and also TCS (Tata Consultancy Services)
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tata_Group
TCS also contracts for Marks & Spencer, and the Co-op, both of which were also taken offline by hacking earlier this year.
Note that M&S dropped TCS in July following the recovery. https://www.ft.com/content/289ec371-2ed4-425a-9bd0-c34e6db39... and elsewhere.
> M&S chair, told MPs that hackers had used “sophisticated impersonation” to gain entry “involving a third party.”
20 bucks says this sophisticated impersonation was social engineering a $5/hour outsourced customer support employee
> The attack is expected to lower operating profits by up to £300mn this year.
that's not counting the reputation and brand damage. M&S is seen as a premium retailer and this whole hack made them seem utterly incompetent and unreliable
> had decided to opt for another service provider after the process had completed
i wonder where this other provider is based. i think i'm gonna place another 20 bucks on this.
> The retailer continues to use the Indian group for other services.
lol.
>20 bucks says this sophisticated impersonation was social engineering a $5/hour outsourced customer support employee
0 bucks says this below list of data breaches is much much more devastating. 0 bucks, because I don't have to bet on it, unlike you, because it's true:
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_data_breaches
>This is a list of reports about data breaches, using data compiled from various sources, including press reports, government news releases, and mainstream news articles. The list includes those involving the theft or compromise of 30,000 or more records, although many smaller breaches occur continually. Breaches of large organizations where the number of records is still unknown are also listed. In addition, the various methods used in the breaches are listed, with hacking being the most common.
>Most reported breaches are in North America, at least in part because of relatively strict disclosure laws in North American countries.[citation needed] 95% of data breaches come from government, retail, or technology industries.[1] It is estimated that the average cost of a data breach will be over $150 million by 2020, with the global annual cost forecast to be $2.1 trillion.[2][3] As a result of data breaches, it is estimated that in first half of 2018 alone, about 4.5 billion records were exposed.[4] In 2019, a collection of 2.7 billion identity records, consisting of 774 million unique email addresses and 21 million unique passwords, was posted on the web for sale.[5] In January 2024, a data breach dubbed the "mother of all breaches" was uncovered.[6] Over 26 billion records, including some from Twitter, Adobe, Canva, LinkedIn, and Dropbox, were found in the database.[7][8] No organization immediately claimed responsibility.[9]
>In August 2024, one of the largest data security breaches was revealed. It involved the background check databroker, National Public Data and exposed the personal information of nearly 3 billion people.[10]
>that's not counting the reputation and brand damage. M&S is seen as a premium retailer and this whole hack made them seem utterly incompetent and unreliable
>>The retailer continues to use the Indian group for other services.
>lol.
>is seen
lol. a lot of things are seen as blah blah. doesn't mean they are blah blah.
google is seen as a world leading tech company. yet see how HNers regard them (except those desperate for FAANG salaries).
If they hired their vendors without due diligence, they may be incompetent and unreliable themselves. On the other hand:
>> M&S chair, told MPs that hackers had used “sophisticated impersonation” to gain entry “involving a third party.”
If the impersonation was sophisticated, maybe it was not so much the fault of TCS?
If it was a Western company, would you talk / think the same?
Nahi. Non. Nein. Nyet. Nada.
lol.
At what point is it more believable that these are inside jobs done on purpose vs. incompetence? I guess that’s just Hanlon’s Razor though.
When you pay your support employees so little, it's not difficult for someone from a wealthier place to bribe them.
I have heard there is a growing trend of hackers paying kickbacks to insiders, certainly makes hacking easier.
Having worked with Indian consultancy firms for over 10 years. I can safely say security attitudes and practices haven't changed much.
There's always this culture of taking shortcuts at the expense of security and quality.
One of the problems with incompetence, of which there are many, is that it gives bad actors space to operate. From a security point of view I don’t think the distinction matters all that much.
That said, the situations I’ve head about were from affiliate ransomware attacks that didn’t make the news because the backup worked. It’s difficult to keep things secure from highly motivated internal bad actors. I’ve been told it’s an increasing trend but have not heard much about it publicly.
It's perfectly believable. Whether it is more believable or not is a toss up. If you employ such a large number of people there are bound to be a couple of bad apples, and unless you have very good internal processes and monitoring it isn't all that hard to imagine someone doing something they shouldn't be doing. But absent hard evidence that it happened that way it interesting speculation but no more than that, besides, it can be impossible to distinguish between the two even if you have evidence of an inside job that looks like incompetence!
Based on my experience working alongside TCS, incompetence seems far more likely. If we'd asked for a back door, we'd have gotten a solid wall.
Then again, my experience may have left me a little jaded.
> October 23, 2023: They confirm receipt and are working on taking action. After this date and up until January 2, 2024, there were various back and forth emails trying to get Tata Motors to revoke the AWS keys. I am not sure if something was lost in translation, but it took a lot of pestering and specific instructions to get it done.
Wow, they had to go out of their way and plead with Tata Motors to fix their own shit. I can only admire their patience. Can't say I would be that patient.
The fact that they put their AWS secret keys on their website is incredible.
Even more importantly, why do the root keys expose EVERYTHING? Do they just have one account for all of their infra?
That’s exactly the kind of work I’d expect from TCS, I’m not sure why you are surprised.
Sending it with AES encryption(with the key that the client has access to) makes it even worse, as someone knew this shouldn't be shared to client yet they shared it anyway.
If you’ve ever worked with Indian outsourcing firms it’s not
Security for most Indian companies - even conglomerates is a joke.
Look at the websites - most look like they've not been upgraded since the 90s, with endless popups
It's a side effect of pay. Like every other company, you get what you pay for, and for organizations that view web security as a [edit:] Cost Center (eg. Tata Motors) there's no incentive to pay market rate for a Security Engineer - who in India can now demand $60k-100k TCs.
Heck, firms that provide offensive security capabilities to Indian PDs can pay $40k-50k after poaching a junior pentester or exploit developer from a PD.
I understand why someone might this this is a pay issue, but it's goes beyond that.
Culturually, doing something "well"(quality oriented, mindful of end-users) vs. "got it done" (transaction, pragmatic way of looking at things) is the heart of why outsourcing to many different geographical areas (India included) often results in something different than expected.
Also condemning every one in one part of the world as thinking one way is certainly not fair or true, but there are definitely unmistakable trends.
I dont think there's much culture when the population is just overloaded with work and traffic and stress
Pay should reward doing something well vs merely doing something. Of course, this would generally mean you need to pay more than the competitor which will happily pay for merely doing something. So yes it is about pay.
Also, Indian companies are competing with American and Israeli founded or funded companies and startups for the same talent.
If you are competent, instead of earning $15k TC working for an automotive company, you could demand $40k-70k in TC from an MNC or a well funded startup (assuming you have the skills to back it up) - and those are the numbers my portfolio companies use to target hiring in India, as well as what I used previously before I became a VC.
Western companies have the exact same problem though; I've dealt with plenty of incompetent people there too because the organization does not reward technical excellence and quality, so it is completely pragmatic for employees to focus their time on the things that are rewarded (engaging in politics, etc) instead.
During the startup/ZIRP era there might have been people doing the "right" thing because they had skin in the game thanks to stock options or they were paid just so fucking much that they didn't care about putting in the extra work. But as total comps go downward (coupled with inflation) the output's quality tends to regress to the minimum acceptable.
It is about pay. If you don’t have someone working on 5 different items continuously straining their bandwidth they tend to do better work.
Becuase it is about pay.
For example, most of the security portfolio that GCP provides is developed and product managed out of the Google Hyderabad office, as is a fairly major Israeli CNAPP product that starts with "A", a large CNAPP from a public Israeli-American security company that is directly positioned against Wiz, and a major security vuln mgmt and redteaming tool used by the DoD, GitHub, and Google. But all these employers pay $60k-130k TC for mid-career security professionals in India.
We scoop up anyone who is remotely competent at transnational firms or startups because we can afford to pay Western salaries, and traditional conglomerates in India largely do not care about web exploits unless they are a web platform first and foremost.
Tata Motors - being an automotive company - does not care about web development for the same reason GM doesn't as well: it isn't tangibly connected to revenue generation. As such, they will just contract it out to TCS (a Tata Group company, but both are independent of each other) at the lowest contract rate possible.
That culture at WITCH and WITCh adjacent companies is itself a result of the pay.
Sorry to be pedantic but I think you mean 'cost center', not loss leader (something sold at a loss to attract customers into your ecosystem/store). You are entirely right otherwise.
Doh! You are correct! Crossed wires during a meeting
> endless popups
Ypu get popups? What are you using to browse? IE5?
I sometimes get 'this site is trying to open another window -allow/ block?': answer is always 'No'.
Not ad popups, site UI popups.
Another example, financial services publicly traded company with a recent 99% profit decline:
https://www.emkayglobal.com/
In site modals.
This shouldn't be a surprise for anyone who has worked with TCS contractors in the past.
So the author got nothing but a thank you out of it? That's a shame.
At least there was a "thank you".
Some go on to sue such researchers.
Yup, they said thank you and took action only because this was a US-based researcher. Had any Indian dared to do this they'd be in for a world of pain. Not through a lawsuit, but criminal charges.
Typical 'payout' for ""responsible"" disclosure.
I'm curious, why wait so long to publish this? The incident was in 2023.
This is a pessimistic comment.
I'm a cofounder of a data and identity security startup operating specifically in APAC. Data security in india a joke.
I would argue even with DPDPA, RBI C-Site and cyber resilience framework from SEBI, it is just going to not happen here.
The list PAN card the blog is taking about is probably already leaked by some other services.
The recent flipkart cash on delivery scams [1] are example of how your personal information is just out there in wild in india, open for exploitation.
There are lot of who do security in good faith (often driven by compliance) and lot of them are our customers too but I hope to see rest of indian tech ecosystem take security seriously.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/FuckFlipkart/comments/1hhrw9w/what_...
I've dealt with Indian companies for security sales and I'd say the newer generation of companies like Razorpay (YC W15) are decent at SecOps, but the older and more established companies suck at it and will continue to suck at it until there is a tangible regulatory incentive to enhance security postures.
It also appears to be a side effect of compensation - why would mid-career security professional want to earn ₹15 LPA TC working for a legacy corporation if they have the skills to land at a security MNC that can afford to pay ₹35-50 LPA in TC.
Ofc, it's us foreign investors who are able to afford those higher TCs ;) - especially if we can convert someone who was mid-career in the US but had to return to India due to family or visa issues.
It reminds me of how the Israeli security scene was 10-15 years ago, with similar problems around compensation and brain drain to MNC offices.
This is embarrassing.
Are there any open source tools that scans the code and detects such gaffes
Superpower by 2027.
I'll just leave this here:
> September 1, 2023: Tata Motors shared with CERT-IN (who then shared with me) that the issues are remediated. September 3, 2023: I confirm only 2/4 issues were remediated and the AWS keys were still present on the websites, and active. October 22, 2023: After no updates and finding the AWS issues still not remediated, I send over some more specific steps on what must be done. October 23, 2023: They confirm receipt and are working on taking action. After this date and up until January 2, 2024, there were various back and forth emails trying to get Tata Motors to revoke the AWS keys. I am not sure if something was lost in translation, but it took a lot of pestering and specific instructions to get it done.
Stay classy TCS.