987654321 / 123456789

(johndcook.com)

318 points | by ColinWright 4 days ago ago

57 comments

  • tetris11 3 hours ago

    I like calculator quirks like this. I remember as a kid playing with the number pad and noticing a geometric center of mass in number sequences

        ┌───┬───┬───┐
        │ 7 │ 8 │ 9 │
        ├───┼───┼───┤
        │ 4 │ 5 │ 6 │
        ├───┼───┼───┤
        │ 1 │ 2 │ 3 │
        ├───┼───┼───┤
        │ 0 │ . │   │
        └───┴───┴───┘
    
    I remember seeing that (14787 + 36989) / 2 would produce 25888, in that the mean of geometric shape traced by the two sequences would average out in the middle like that
    • nonethewiser 4 minutes ago

      The even simpler example is more striking imo.

      (147 + 369) / 2 = 258

      and

      (741 + 963) / 2 = 852

    • nasvay_factory 38 minutes ago

      i remember the 1110 thing on a calc as well.

      741 + 369 & 963 + 147 | 123 + 987 & 321 + 789 (left right | up down)

      159 + 951 & 753 + 357 | 258 + 852 & 456 + 654 (diagonally | center lines)

      the design of a keypad... it unintentionally contains these elegant mathematical relationships.

      i call this phenomena: outcomes of human creations can be "funny and odd", and everybody understand that eventually there will be always something unpredictable.

    • nashashmi 3 hours ago

      14789 + 36987 / 2 would do the same thing. Why trace back?

      • dfee 2 hours ago

        So would 147 and 369. As it’s just an average, per digit, I’m not sure this is very interesting.

        • gowld 2 hours ago

          Being curious is delightful.

      • tetris11 2 hours ago

        Just to show that you could - 14861 and 36843 gives 25852

  • gus_massa 22 minutes ago

    The other replies are good, but let's add another one anyway.

    0.987654321/0.123456789 = (1.11111111-x)/x = 1.11111111/x - 1 where x = 0.123456789

    You can aproxímate 1.11111111 by 10/9 and aproxímate x = 0.123456789 using y = 0.123456789ABCD... = 0.123456789(10)(11)(12)(13)... that is a number in base 10 that is not written correctly and has digits that are greater than 9. I.E. y = sum_i>0 i/10^i

    Now you can consider the function f(t) = t + 2 t^2 + 3 t^3 + 4 t^4 + ... = sum_i>0 i*t^i and y is just y=f(0.1).

    And also consider an auxiliary function g(t) = t + t^2 + t^3 + t^4 + ... = sum_i>0 1*t^i . A nice property is that g(t)= 1/(1-t) when -1<t<1.

    The problem with g is that it lacks the coefficients, but that can be solved taking the derivative. g'(t) = 1 + 2 t + 3 t^2 + 4 t^3 + ... Now the coefficients are shifted but it can be solved multiplying by t. So f(t)=t*g'(t).

    So f(t) = t * (1/(1-t))' = t * (1/(1-t)^2) = t/(1-t)^2

    and y = f(0.1) = .1/.9^2 = 10/81

    then 0.987654321/0.123456789 ~= (10/9-y)/y = 10/(9y)-1 = 9 - 1 = 8

    Now add some error bounds using the Taylor method to get the difference between x and y, and also a bound for the difference between 1.11111111 an 10/9. It shoud take like 15 minutes to get all the details right, but I'm too lazy.

    (As I said in another comment, all these series have a good convergence for |z|<1, so by standards methods of complex analysis all the series tricks are correct.)

  • Joker_vD 4 hours ago

    Somewhat interesting, 123456789 * 8 is 987654312 (the last two digits are swapped). This holds for other bases as well: 0x123456789ABCDEF * 14 is 0xFEDCBA987654312.

    Also, adding 123456789 to itself eight times on an abacus is a nice exercise, and it's easy to visually control the end result.

    • andyjansson 3 hours ago

      Another interesting thing is that these seem to work:

      base 16: 123456789ABCDEF~16 * (16-2) + 16 - 1 = FEDCBA987654321~16

      base 10: 123456789~10 * (10-2) + 10 - 1 = 987654321~10

      base 9: 12345678~9 * (9-2) + 9 - 1 = 87654321~9

      base 8: 1234567~8 * (8-2) + 8 - 1 = 7654321~8

      base 7: 123456~7 * (7-2) + 7 - 1 = 654321~7

      base 6: 12345~6 * (6-2) + 6 - 1 = 54321~6

      and so on..

      or more generally:

      base n: sequence * (n - 2) + n - 1

      • madcaptenor an hour ago

        This is in the original post, in the form

          num(b)/denom(b) = b - 2 + (b-1)/denom(b)
        
        so you just need to clear the denominator.
  • jedberg 2 hours ago

    This was by far the most interesting part to me. I've never considered that code and proofs can be so complimentary. It would be great if someone did this for all math proofs!

    "Why include a script rather than a proof? One reason is that the proof is straight-forward but tedious and the script is compact.

    A more general reason that I give computational demonstrations of theorems is that programs are complementary to proofs. Programs and proofs are both subject to bugs, but they’re not likely to have the same bugs. And because programs made details explicit by necessity, a program might fill in gaps that aren’t sufficiently spelled out in a proof."

    • layer8 an hour ago

      This is misleading in that the (Curry–Howard) correspondence is between proofs and the static typing of programs. A bug in a proof therefore corresponds to a bug in the static typing of a program (or to the type system of the programming language being unsound), not to any other program bug.

      (Also: complementary != complimentary.)

      • nh23423fefe an hour ago

        i think this is wrong. code is proofs, types are propositions

        • layer8 an hour ago

          The types are the propositions proved by the proof. The proof is correct <=> the program is soundly typed.

        • CamperBob2 17 minutes ago

          Code is proof that the operation embodied by the code works. I don't understand how it proves anything more generally than that, apart from code using exotic languages or techniques intended for just that purpose.

  • alyxya 4 hours ago

    I like to think of 0.987654... and 0.123456... as infinite series which simplify to 80/81 and 10/81, hence the ~8 ratio.

    • oersted 4 hours ago

      I didn't get where this comes from until I saw the second answer from the StackOverflow question another commenter shared.

      https://math.stackexchange.com/a/2268896

      Apparently 1/9^2 is well known to be 0.12345679(012345679)...

      EDIT: Yes it's missing the 8 (I wrote it wrong intially): https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/994203/why-do-we-mi...

      Interesting how it works out but I don't think it is anywhere close to as intuitive as the parent comment implies. The way its phrased made me feel a bit dumb because I didn't get it right away, but in retrospect I don't think anyone would reasonably get it without context.

      • alyxya 4 hours ago

        It actually skips the 8 in its repeating decimal. It’s better to think of 1/9^2 as the infinite sum of k * 10^-k for all positive integers k. The 8 gets skipped because you have something like ...789(10)(11)... where the 1 from the “10” and “11” digits carry over, increment the 9 digit causing another carry, so the 8 becomes a 9.

      • iso1631 4 hours ago

        9^2 is 81

        1/81 is 0.012345679012345679....

        no 8 in sight

        • madcaptenor 4 hours ago

          The 8 is there but then it's followed by a 9 and a 10, and the carry from the 10 ends up bumping it up.

          • zkmon 3 hours ago

            Shouldn't wee see two zeros then?

            • madcaptenor 3 hours ago

              The reason you don't see two zeroes is as follows: you have

                .123456789
              
              then add 10 on the end, as the tenth digit after the decimal point, to get

                .123456789(10)
              
              where the parentheses denote a "digit" that's 10 or larger, which we'll have to deal with by carrying to get a well-formed decimal. Then carry twice to get

                .12345678(10)0
              
                .1234567900
              
              So for a moment we have two zeroes, but now we need to add 11 to the 11th digit after the decimal point to get

                .1234567900(11)
              
              or after carrying

                .12345679011
              
              and now there is only one zero.
              • zkmon 3 hours ago

                Ah, that's cool. Thanks!

            • oersted 3 hours ago

              This illustrates it nicely: https://math.stackexchange.com/a/994214

    • Stolpe 4 hours ago

      Care to elaborate? Why does 0.987654 simplify to 80/81 and 0.123456 to 10/81?

      • madcaptenor 4 hours ago

        .123456... = x + 2 x^2 + 3 x^3 + ... with x = 1/10.

        Then you have (x + 2 x^2 + 3 x^3 + ...) = (x + x^2 + x^3 + x^4 + ...) + (x^2 + x^3 + x^4 + x^5 + ...) + (x^3 + x^4 + x^5 + x^6 + ...) (count the number of occurrences of each power of x^n on the right-hand side)

        and from the sum of a geometric series the RHS is x/(1-x) + x^2/(1-x) + x^3/(1-x) + ..., which itself is a geometric series and works out to x/(1-x)^2. Then put in x = 1/10 to get 10/81.

        Now 0.987654... = 1 - 0.012345... = 1 - (1/10) (10/81) = 1 - 1/81 = 80/81.

        • gowld 2 hours ago

          Don't need the clutter of infinite series and polynomials:

              1/9 = 0.1111...
          
              1/81 = 1/9 * 1/9 = 0.111... * 0.111... =
          
              Sum of:
                 0.0111...
                 0.00111...
                 0.000111...
                 ...
              
              =  0.012345...
          • GuB-42 an hour ago

            Isn't it essentially the same thing, but less formal

            0.1111... is just a notation for (x + x^2 + x^3 + x^4 + ...) with x = 1/10

            1/9 = 0.1111... is a direct application of the x/(1-x) formula

            The sum of 0.0111... + 0.00111... ... = 0.012345... part is the same as the "(x + 2 x^2 + 3 x^3 + ...) = (x + x^2 + x^3 + x^4 + ...) + (x^2 + x^3 + x^4 + x^5 + ...)" part (but divided by 10)

            And 1/81 = 1/9 * 1/9 ... part is the x/(1-x)^2 result

          • madcaptenor an hour ago

            This is better than my answer, at least if you can get your brain to interpret it in base b. In that case the first two lines would become

              1/(b-1) = 0.1111...
              1/((b-1)^2) = 1/b * 1/b = 0.111... * 0.111... =
        • gus_massa 3 hours ago

          I don't know who downvoted this, but it's correct.

          The use of series is a little "sloppy", but x + 2 x^2 + 3 x^3 + ... has absolute uniform convergence when |x|<r<1, even more importantly that it's true even for complex numbers |z|<r<1.

          The super nice property of complex analysis is that you can be almost ridiculously "sloppy" inside that open circle and the Conway book will tell you everything is ok.

          [I'll post a similar proof, but mine use -1/10 and rounding, so mine is probably worse.]

      • alyxya 4 hours ago

        If you set x = 0.123456..., then multiplying it by (10 - 1) gives 9x = 1.111111..., and multiplying it by (10 - 1) again gives 81x = 10, or x = 10/81. I’m not writing things formally here but that’s the rough idea, and you can do the same procedure with 0.987654... to get 80/81.

  • bobbylarrybobby an hour ago

    Let's prove it.

    In general, sum(x^k, k=1…n) = x(1-x^n)/(1-x).

    Then sum(kx^(k-1), k=1…n) = d/dx sum(x^k, k=1…n) = d/dx (x(1-x^n))/(1-x) = (nx^(n+1) - (n+1)x^n + 1)/(1-x)^2

    With x=b, n=b-1, the numerator as defined in TFA is n = sum(kb^(k-1), k=1…b-1) = ((b-2)b^b + 1)/(1-b)^2 = ((b-2)b^b + 1)/(1-b)^2.

    And the denominator is:

    d = sum((b-k)b^(k-1), k=1..b-1) = sum(b^k, k=1..b-1) - sum(kb^(k-1), k=1..b-1) = (b-b^b)/(1-b) - n = (b^b - b^2 + b - 1)/(1-b)^2.

    Then, n-(b-1) = (b^(b+1) - 2b^b - b^3 + 3b^2 - 3b +2)/(1-b)^2.

    And d(b-2) = the same thing.

    So n = d(b-2) + b - 1, whence n/d = b-2 + (b-1)/d.

    We also see that the dominant term in d will be b^b/(1-b)^2 which grows like b^(b-2), which is why the fractional part of n/d is 1 over that.

    I disagree with the author that a script works as well as a proof. Scripts are neither constructive nor exhaustive.

    • jph00 an hour ago

      The author does not say a script works as well as a proof.

    • vatsachakrvthy 44 minutes ago

      If you want to be lazier, after finding the generating functions one can plug into sympy to skip the algebra.

  • msuvakov 3 hours ago

    Why the b > 2 condition? In the b=2 case, all three formulas also work perfectly, providing a ratio of 1. And this is interesting case where the error term is integer and the only case where that error term (1) is dominant (b-2=0), while the b-2 part dominates for larger bases.

    • listeria 2 hours ago

      in the b=2 case, you get:

        1 / 1 = 1 = b - 1
        1 % 1 = 0 = b - 2
      
      they are the other way around, see for example the b=3 case:

        21 (base 3) = 7
        12 (base 3) = 5
        7 / 5 = 1 = b - 2
        7 % 5 = 2 = b - 1
  • throw0101c 3 hours ago

    See perhaps various "What every programmer / CSist should know about floating-point arithmetic" papers and articles:

    * David Goldberg, 1991: https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/103162.103163

    * 2014, "Floating Point Demystified, Part 1": https://blog.reverberate.org/2014/09/what-every-computer-pro... ; https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8321940

    * 2015: https://www.phys.uconn.edu/~rozman/Courses/P2200_15F/downloa...

    • MrOrelliOReilly 2 hours ago

      As someone who has recently been fighting bugs from representing very simple math with floats... thank you!

  • ok123456 3 hours ago

    For the even bases, the "error" appears to be https://oeis.org/A051848.

    pp = lambda x : denom(x)/ (num(x) - denom(x)*(x - 2))

    [pp(2),pp(4),pp(6),pp(8)]

    [1.0, 9.0, 373.0, 48913.0]

  • danielbarla 2 hours ago

    I also spent hours messing around with calculators as a kid. I recall noticing that:

    11 * 11 = 121

    111 * 111 = 12321

    1111 * 1111 = 1234321

    and so on, where the largest digit in the answer is the number of digits in the multiplicands.

  • veganjay 44 minutes ago

    Reminds me of an old calculator trick:

    Pick an integer between 1 and 9. Multiple it by 9. Take that number and multiply it by 12345679. (Skip the 8)

    >>> 3 * 9

    27

    >>> 12345679 * 27

    333333333

    This all works because:

    >>> 111111111 / 9

    12345679.0

  • trotro 4 hours ago

    Feels like a Temu version of Ramanujan's constant [0].

    [0] https://mathworld.wolfram.com/RamanujanConstant.html

  • _def 28 minutes ago

    > The exact ratio is not 14, but it’s as close to 14 as a standard floating point number can be.

    How do you get around limitations like that in science?

    • gus_massa 6 minutes ago

      You can use Mathematica or Sage that can use any number of digits https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=FEDCBA987654321_16+%2F+...

      You can use special libraries for floating point that uses more mantisa.

      In most sciences, numbers are never integers anyway, so you have errors intervals in the numerator and denumerator and you get an error interval for the result.

  • ozb 4 hours ago
    • ukuina 4 hours ago

      That question was asked 8 years ago. Coincidence? I think not!

  • yohbho 4 hours ago

    For smaller bases, does this converge to base - 1 ?

    Base 3: 21/12 = 7/5(dec.)

    Base 2: 1/1 = 1

    Base 1: |/| = 1 (thinking |||| = 4 etc.)

  • lutusp 25 minutes ago

    > I recently saw someone post [1] that 987654321/123456789 is very nearly 8, specifically 8.0000000729.

    Okay. Try this (in a Python terminal session):

    >>> 111111111*2

    12345678987654321

  • MontyCarloHall 4 hours ago

    In a similar vein, e^pi - pi = 19.9990999792, as referenced in this XKCD: https://xkcd.com/217/

    • zkmon 3 hours ago

      Also, (-1)^(-i) - pi = 19.999... ;)

    • madcaptenor 4 hours ago

      Not really in a similar vein, because there's actually a good reason for this to be very close to an integer whereas there is no such reason for e^pi - pi.

  • wkat4242 3 hours ago

    I thought this was a user ID and password lol

  • brutuscat 2 hours ago

    Gemini thinks in a similar fashion:

    https://gemini.google.com/share/1e59f734b43c

    This is a fantastic observation, and yes, this pattern not only continues for larger bases, but the approximation to an integer becomes dramatically better.

    The general pattern you've found is that for a number base $b$, the ratio of the number formed by digits $(b-1)...321$ to the number formed by digits $123...(b-1)$ is extremely close to $b-2$.

    ### The General Formula

    Let's call your ascending number $N_{asc}(b)$ and your descending number $N_{desc}(b)$.

    The exact ratio $R(b) = N_{desc}(b) / N_{asc}(b)$ can be shown to be:

    $$R(b) = (b-2) + \frac{(b-1)^3}{b^b - b^2 + b - 1}$$

    The "error" or the fractional part is that second term. As you can see, the numerator $(b-1)^3$ is roughly $b^3$, while the denominator $b^b$ grows much faster.

    ### Testing Your Examples

    Let's check your two examples with this formula:

    * *Base 10 (b=10):* * $R(10) = (10-2) + \frac{(10-1)^3}{10^{10} - 10^2 + 10 - 1}$ * $R(10) = 8 + \frac{9^3}{10,000,000,000 - 91}$ * $R(10) = 8 + \frac{729}{9,999,999,909} \approx 8 + 0.0000000729...$ * This matches your $8.0000000729$ perfectly.

    * *Base 6 (b=6):* * $R(6) = (6-2) + \frac{(6-1)^3}{6^6 - 6^2 + 6 - 1}$ * $R(6) = 4 + \frac{5^3}{46,656 - 31}$ * $R(6) = 4 + \frac{125}{46,625} \approx 4 + 0.00268...$ * This also matches your $4.00268$.

    ### Answering Your Question: A Larger Base

    So, what about a larger base? Let's use *Base 16* (hexadecimal), which uses digits $1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, A, B, C, D, E, F$. Here, $b=16$.

    * $N_{asc} = 123456789ABCDEF_{16}$ * $N_{desc} = FEDCBA987654321_{16}$

    According to the pattern, the ratio should be extremely close to $b-2 = 16-2 = 14$.

    Let's use the formula to see how close:

    * $R(16) = (16-2) + \frac{(16-1)^3}{16^{16} - 16^2 + 16 - 1}$ * $R(16) = 14 + \frac{15^3}{16^{16} - 241}$ * $R(16) = 14 + \frac{3,375}{1.844... \times 10^{19} - 241}$ * $R(16) \approx 14 + (1.829... \times 10^{-16})$

    So, the ratio in base 16 is approximately: *$14.0000000000000001829...$*

    As you predicted, the "error" for a larger base is astronomically smaller than it was for base 10.

  • OldGreenYodaGPT 2 hours ago

    Definitions: denom(b) = (b^b - b^2 + b - 1) / (b - 1)^2 num(b) = (b^b(b - 2) + 1) / (b - 1)^2

    Exact relation: num(b) - (b - 2)denom(b) = b - 1

    Therefore: num(b) / denom(b) = (b - 2) + (b - 1)^3 / (b^b - b^2 + b - 1) [exact]

    Geometric expansion: Let a = b^2 - b + 1. 1 / (b^b - b^2 + b - 1) = (1 / b^b) * 1 / (1 - a / b^b) = (1 / b^b) * sum_{k>=0} (a / b^b)^k

    So: num(b) / denom(b) = (b - 2) • (b - 1)^3 / b^b • (b - 1)^3 * a / b^{2b} • (b - 1)^3 * a^2 / b^{3b} • …

    Practical approximation: num(b) / denom(b) ≈ (b - 2) + (b - 1)^3 / b^b

    Exact error: Let T_exact = (b - 1)^3 / (b^b - b^2 + b - 1) Let T_approx = (b - 1)^3 / b^b

    Absolute error: T_exact - T_approx = (b - 1)^3 * (b^2 - b + 1) / [ b^b * (b^b - b^2 + b - 1) ]

    Relative error: (T_exact - T_approx) / T_exact = (b^2 - b + 1) / b^b

    Sign: The approximation with denominator b^b underestimates the exact value.

    Digit picture in base b: (b - 1)^3 has base-b digits (b - 3), 2, (b - 1). Dividing by b^b places those three digits starting b places after the radix point.

    Examples: base 10: 8 + 9^3 / 10^10 = 8.0000000729 base 9: 7 + 8^3 / 9^9 = 7.000000628 in base 9 base 8: 6 + 7^3 / 8^8 = 6.00000527 in base 8

    num(b) / denom(b) equals (b - 2) + (b - 1)^3 / (b^b - b^2 + b - 1) exactly. Replacing the denominator by b^b gives a simple approximation with relative error exactly (b^2 - b + 1) / b^b.