Not affiliated but I'm looking into converting my commuter bike with a kit from https://ebikes.ca. Seems to make more sense to turn any of the million bikes out there into an electric one using a reusable kit than buying a single purpose electric bike that will end up on the landfill once the company goes bust because no one wants to push around a bike that heavy.
$4500 is ten or more of my homebrew 750 watt electric mountain bike originally built in 2004. I just repowered with LiFePO4 after 10 years in storage and the new batteries really pull. It has a front hub motor with a throttle control limited to 20 mph. My commute is 10 miles, 6 on a dedicated bike path. Life is good.
What kind of capacity from your LFP battery? Is it diy built?
I did one in the spring 16S with 25Ah cells and it's been amazing since. Only problem is it's a bit too big to fit anywhere I'd like it to. I have to mount it on a rear rack
I am using 3x 12v 185wh batteries in series. Realistically I can count on around 500wh. They are only 3 lbs each and fit neatly within the frame of the mtb. I don't like having them up on the rear rack, they tend to make the tail of the bike wag a bit compared to low and centered.
808Wh battery and 100 miles of range. These two numbers track with each other and are roughly believable.
OTOH, with a battery this big, a generator powered by the pedals, and regen braking this thing has to be heavy. I'd expect it to weigh at least 80 lbs. More likely 100. The fact that their "specs" say nothing about weight suggests they're embarrassed about the weight.
Regen braking is how you can tell this was designed by a moron. The energy balance simply does not favor regenerative braking on a bicycle, especially a bicycle that flippantly ignores aerodynamics like this one does. A bicyclist loses roughly all of their energy to air resistance. It's not a truck. There is not substantial potential energy to be recaptured going down hills.
What I want ... not an E-bike, but an E-version of the BMW C1
Critical features:
1. moderate weather protection
2. vastly improved crash protection
3. top speed above 50mph
4. luggage capacity of a small flatbed trailer
I acknowledge the utility of e-bikes for many; for me, I prefer my non-e bike when I want to ride my bike, but would love an e-motorycle as an alternative to 80% of my car trips.
Christ what an ugly kludge. Just spend a weekend in Amsterdam and check out the Tenways and the Vanmoof roaming the streets for an idea how to do it, if not right, at least decently
> Also also unveiled its Alpha Wave helmet.... It also features integrated lights and a four-speaker, wind-shielded internal audio system with two noise-canceling mics. The helmet integrates with the TM-B’s console, where music, calls, and podcasts can be controlled on the bike.
In an ideal world these would be great features to have, but in the real world, where so many places have a near complete absence of safe cycling infrastructure and bicycles are casually mixed in with giant trucks it's a bit of a scary notion to reduce your situational awareness with a great sound system and the distraction of doing your morning zoom standup while cycling to work (I've done this before lol, tho most of my commute is in separated bike lanes...).
This points to the headwinds to adoption and success of the Also, which is that so many cities are ambivalent and uninterested if not outright ideologically opposed to building safe all ages and abilities bike lanes. That sort of safe infrastructure is critical to the success of a product like this. It's really unfortunate.
I just added strips of fake fur to the straps my boring old helmet to diffuse the wind noise the same way a "dead cat" cover on a microphone does. They look a bit like muttonchops which is a bonus as far as I am concerned. I use wraparound bone conduction headphones that don't block my ears. I would be afraid of losing an expensive earbud.
Very interesting, really liking the swappable components in the quad. I'm a big cyclist but have been looking for something new to take around for commuting that isn't a scooter.
Great to see more manufacturers getting in on micromobility options.
a full suspension e-bike, 500+Wh battery, with a belt drive for $4,500 is honestly a really good deal. There is a shortage of options when it comes to full-suspension bikes that are good for commutes. Compare this to any e-bike with the Bosch e-bike system. The big risk here for consumers if whether they can match the service, support, and reliability that Bosch has. There appears to be a class-2 e-bike option which is something that significantly differentiates it from bikes with the Bosch system.
I really don't get what the point of the pedals on a thing like this, though. I guess mainly to satisfy some sort of regulations which separate bikes and motorcycle like vehicles? Considering that they aren't even connected to the drivetrain...
Based on the video and rivian history I think they wanted to redesign from the ground up a bike to match the packaging success they had at rivian and companies like lucid vs how legacy automakers approached it. The problem is the current laws about bikes and ebikes limited them and they had to make many tradeoffs which is what we are looking at. I guess we will find it if it was worth it to go ground up vs more off the shelf. As a rivian owner I'm concerned about repair-ability and maintenance.
In the U.S., there are 3 classes of e-bike:
Class 1: pedal-assist only up to 20mph (helmets optional for adults)
Class 2: same as Class 1 but with optional throttle to 20mph
Class 3: pedal-assist only up to 28mph (helmets required, adults only)
There's also a maximum power rating of 750 watts for all of these. I'm not sure where the "pedal by wire" feature is from a regulatory perspective, but to me this fits into either class 2 or 3 depending on what option you get.
My state doesn't even require helmets for motorcyclists. I am guessing any regulations on e-bikes date back to the days when 2-stroke "moped" bikes were briefly popular.
I was in the market for a commuter recently and my runner-up was this bike from Bulls (German brand trying to break into the US market) with full suspension, a Bosch motor, and coming in at a staggeringly light 58 lbs (battery included) for $3300. Extremely tempting, if I hadn't managed to snag a heavily-discounted Aventon Level 2 instead. https://bullsbikesusa.com/products/iconic-evo-tr-1-750
The way I read it is if you use throttle-only you can reach 20 mph, but then if adding pedal-power you reach 28 mph. The pedal is probably not generating sufficient force to add 8 mph, but it’s telling the control system to do that.
class 2 and class 3 are mutually exclusive. You cannot legally have an e-bike that supports throttle up to 20mph that can also continue to e-assist if you pedal up to 28mph. While it's technically possible in software to switch between these modes, consumers aren't supposed to be able to do this on their own.
It's an e-bike. The competition is stiff, better looking, and better priced.
If they're lucky, this will appeal to university professors and over achieving parents of unsuspecting kids who want a cool bike but got an expensive dorky one instead.
The e-bike market has multiple tiers/segments. This is not priced to compete with brands like Rad Power Bikes, Lectric, or Aventon. It's likely going to compete with brands like Tern, Benno, Gazelle, Trek, etc.
edit: ask yourself why the median new car in the US sells for over $50k when you can easily find cars for less than half that price.
I find it hard to imagine what the overlap between this and e.g. ebikes from Trek, though. Besides the price of course... It's an entirely different product.
I have a 750W e-bike (which actually means 750W peak, 500W sustained).
There are hills near my house that my bike can not make it up without significant pedal assist.
If the motor and power electronics on this e-bike can only handle 750W peak, 500W sustained, as is common and I think is possibly even legislated in parts of the U.S., this bike will not be able to make it up serious hills.
With a normal e-bike, your pedaling is additive to the motor. That is not the case with this design.
If the motor is geared it could make a difference. For comparison, most people put out about 100 watts with their legs, but need to downshift to go up hills. This looks like a mid drive unit, which should be capable of varied gearing.
Despite the complaints in this thread there is already a market for $4k ebikes. And people are buying them. The bike competes with a bunch of e-bikes in that price range, Evelo Omega, Bosch, etc. So they're hardly a first mover. They are optimizing that market.
yeah but what's the point? At this price point alibaba monsters are far more powerful and real bicycles far more bicycle-like. These will sell a 10-20k units and fade into obscurity like Van Moofs and other disruptive bicycles before them.
People typically don't buy big ticket goods from a company named "YACCEEZY" like you might see on Amazon or Aliexpress these days.
It's worth noting that Hyundai had a similar issue when it entered the US market. It was an uphill battle to market itself to convince people to spend thousands of dollars of money on a no-name car brand.
"Drive by Wire"? This is not even anywhere near a "bike". At least you could argue "e-bikes" could still be pedaled without the battery. It's not that anybody would want to or even could, but an argument could be made.
I ride a class-3 Tern cargo bike with 400Wh battery and this range is very optimistic, especially since this is pedal-by-wire. Also what happens when the battery runs out, because you can just ride without assist on any Bosch e-bike.
Game over with a dead battery, I would think, though I suppose it's possible that the generator you're pedaling is enough for very slow movement without the battery boost...
Bear with me I don't know much about bikes but I have this honest question: why does it need a chain, and won't place the engine (or whatever gear box it has) directly on the wheel?
Dirt bikes and many motorcycles also have chains, this allows you to change gears to adjust torque (alternatives include shaft and belt drives).
E-bikes can have the motors on the wheel (hub-drive) or on the pedal (mid-drive). This choice is largely related to how much you want your e-bike to really be a scooter or really be providing pedal assist. As a consequence hub-drive e-bikes typically have a throttle while mid-drive do not.
A good mid-drive e-bike really makes it feel like you are a super human cyclist rather than riding a scooter. It leads to a much smoother riding experience if your aim is to still be essentially bicycling but you'd like to get moving faster and not break a sweet even on the most extreme hills.
I have a couple of mid-drive e-bikes (Bafang motors) with throttles. Throttled mid-drives let you get the best of both worlds: Great pedal assist combined with the ability to just be a scooter when you get tired. And I agree that mid-drive is the way to go if you want to ride on hills. If you commute in San Francisco for example, a hub drive e-bike will not help you much but a mid-drive will change your life.
Completely agree. They should probably just remove the pedals and generator entirely and save that weight. But then legally it becomes a scooter and probably would require a license and be more limited as to where it could go.
Putting the motor into the wheel makes for an excellent riding experience, I have a Bionx rear wheel (out of business) that is connected to the chain ring and pedals in the traditional way. The wheel detects torque from pedaling and applies it's own torque to drive the wheel. It can be used with and without power and feels almost seamless and is silent.
Unfortunately it seems to be difficult to engineer and build these wheel motors for reliability and longevity. They significanly increase the unsprung mass of the wheel which leads to increased wear on the hub components.
does that actually matter much on anything except dirt-bike tracks, or trying to go 40mph on a horrifically bumpy track? minus some comfort advantage, of course.
like technically, sure, it's obviously true. but for performance it only really matters when you would get air time with higher mass, and the lower mass stays in contact more. commuter e-biking generally doesn't get anywhere near those speeds or bump-sizes. (trail biking: sure! I 100% believe it's a sizable consideration there)
I've never ridden a full suspension with a hub motor so I can't say, but my guess is that yes, it would make a pretty big difference with an aggressive rider or poor quality streets. It's not just keeping contact that matters, its the consistency and quality of contact, especially with a super torquey motor ready to jump at a twitch of your thumb. Its of course not necessary for commuter biking, but neither is basically anything on this premium product aside from the wheels and pedals.
Also to note, they are very much marketing it as a trail bike in addition to a commuter so it's not surprising they would spend a bit to optimize for ride quality and traction.
It's a backup so that if you do lose power, you can still pedal home. Major pain to pedal an 80 lb fixed gear bike, but This is standard on ebikes and doesn't contribute much weight or cost in itself.
It's not clear if their design allows for it from the details in the article, but you'd want a chain in case you run out of battery so you can pedal manually.
mid-drive e-bikes like this one are generally more expensive also but more efficient than rear hub motor systems. They also provide better overall weight distribution.
There's nothing wrong with hydraulic disc brakes on an e-bike, except that hydraulic brakes are hard to maintain yourself without special tools. All e-bikes need disc brakes, period. Any e-bike (or any merely heavy bike) is unsafe without disc brakes. Whether those brakes are mechanical or hydraulic doesn't matter nearly as much as the fact that they use discs.
There's literally thousands of e-bikes with touch screens and it would be unsafe for a bike of this weight to have anything other than hydraulic disc brakes, which are the standard for just about anything that isn't a road bike these days. Locator also pretty common even on $1,000 ebikes.
But yes, other stuff seems to be features for the sake of features.
A touchscreen on a primarily-outdoor device makes no sense to me. It's just a single point of failure for fanciness. Transit safety should be taken more seriously, with controls you can operate by feel, rather than vision. It's not important if lots and lots of companies include this single point of failure.
Edit: also, don't capacitive screens kinda suck if they get a little wet? like what, you just can't use the screen controls while it's raining without risking unlocking your seat 40,000 times in a half second due to a stray raindrop sitting on the screen? Feels like resistive would explicitly be superior here. You probably don't need huge accuracy for what should ideally be a spacious display anyways.
E-bikes with properly adjusted mechanical disc brakes are perfectly safe, and mechanical brakes are easy to adjust yourself without the need to take them to a bike shop. It's the discs that are important -- not whether they are mechanical or hydraulic.
If you put miles on your bike and ride hills, you'll spend way more time fiddling with an allen/torx on the inboard pad or the adjustment barrel on the cable as your pads wear. The bleeding procedure for hydraulics is for sure messier, but still very doable in 5 minutes. When you do have air in the system, pumping the lever a bit gives you back some braking function.
Hydraulic disc brakes aren't really overkill on an e-bike, it's a safety thing. You really don't want to skimp out on stopping power when your heavy bike has a powerful motor.
Not for an e-bike it isn't. In fact, I'd say if you're not rocking hydraulic brakes on an e-bike, you're asking for a bad time. I know that most lower end e-bikes don't come with them standard, but to me, it's a necessary and immediate upgrade for safety.
I respectfully disagree. I've owned and ridden several ebikes with mechanical disc brakes. When they're properly adjusted they have just as much stopping power as hydraulics.
Hydraulic disc brakes are not overkill with a bike of that mass [0] and power. Disc brakes are very common mountain bikes or any type where there is a lot of braking as caliper/rim brakes can overheat and pop the tires, so this unit should definitely have disc brakes. Hydraulic is better than cable/mechanical as hydraulic can generate more braking power, have better feel, and stay in better adjustment. The only downside vs cable+disc is cable is more repairable in the field.
[0] (overall specs indicate a lot of weight, Rivian are not proud enough of any lightweighting to even print the weight, and their autos are also very heavy, indicating a lack of lightweight engineering discipline in that shop which may carry over to their other mobility solutions)
I'm with you on the automatic lock/unlock and full-touch controls, I don't like either of those design choices in cars and I don't want them in a bike either.
That said a GPS locator is great on an e-bike. They're high value theft targets, anything that makes them harder to steal, easier to track, or otherwise reduces the appeal of stealing one is a good thing.
Hydraulic disc brakes are a great thing even on non-electronic bikes. I won't buy another bike without them. My hardtail mountain bike, gravel bike, and e-cruiser are all hydraulic discs.
Hydraulic disc brakes are table stakes for a mountain or gravel bike nowadays. Dual or preferably quad piston calipers on a big rotor make a significant difference when it comes to stopping power.
The issue with juicero is that their hardware design was needlessly and insanely over complicated, like magnitudes past anything I’m seeing here - and they DRMd something that didn’t need to be DRMd (juice)
For this bike, those are features people regularly want in e-bikes and cost very little to add - the bike already needs a capable cpu for battery management and acceleration curve controlling.
These are features that people differentiate these pseudo motorcycles on. “We” have learned the lesson.
Only 28mph max speed, and the firmware might actually be properly protected from this bug being easily fixed. I'll stick to my Chinese scooters run by code-unlocked STM32F103 clones i can easily cure of such idiocy.
The battery system here sounds so sweet. Swappable, with a respectable 0.5kWh and then an Extended Range 0.8kWh is excellent.
Usb-c chargeable at 240W is divinely sweet. Maybe maybe some day dual USB would be nice (for the ER especially) but this is quite respectable. And by not trying to super fast charge the battery will live longer anyhow.
Being removable is another nice win, if not uncommon. I don't know which other batteries provide USB power even without the bike, which again is such a great nice to have: take the bike to a park then bring with an charge some phones or what-not.
In the future I really hope we see some battery alliances, making some form factors, and centralizing on usb-c. As would be good common sense. The overlap between a bike battery and standalone Delta or Ecoflow battery power station is huge, and Rivian here seems a little further along than most at hybridizing & generalizing a battery system: obvious win to anyone paying attention!
The modularity could be a major win too. I'd love to see a an e-bike maker go down the Ford Bronco path & add a bunch of attachments points and replaceable/modular pieces to the design, and release all the specs for free use! Even if it only is Rivian and some partners doing this here, this is the way, it feels like:
> The top frame of the TM-B is modular by design, so the bike can be transformed without tools into a cargo hauler, kid carrier, or cruiser with a bench seat.
Cargo haulers easily climb to the 6000$ ranges. And the massive 180NM motor here will not bat an eye!
One thing I'd love to see: a stationary bike mode. Bring it inside for the winter & do spin class, charging up the battery. The full series hybrid, no mechanical linkage, doesnt deel super super practical to be honest but it's interesting!
A lot of nice basic things that make sense. Like no longer needing special cherging equipment for reasonably good capacity chwrging (albeit most usb-c chargers will only be doing 100w for a while now, but that seems fine).
bikes are already highly "modular" in that outside of ebike motor systems you can swap most parts. Bikes like the Rivian in the article would only work if ruggedized and sold to fleets. As a consumer you'd just get something from Specialized at this price point since it won't be worthless in 2 years time.
Agreed that bikes do often exhibit some level of modularity. But attaching a front or back cargo rack or kid carrier gets pretty finicky pretty quick: most e-bikers tend to just buy the (often quite expensive) 1st party gear, because it'll actually fit right.
This bike seems to have only a single major modular system, but it comprises such a massive part of the bike: there's a big stem-post that attaches to the drive unit. Being able to swap that stem-post out for other things allows for really big changes, imo. You could build some really cool really neat different top-sides atop this bike, with really weird cargo or kid shapes.
I would love to see smaller level modularity too. I'm really impressed by the Bronco, and how they've clearly worked very hard to make it a "car as a platform", opening up as much space as they can for aftermarket parts & 3d printing people to build everything from cup-holders/interior fixing to body-panels (dunno the best link for this, but for ex: https://thebronconation.com/more-bronco-modularity-fender-fl...). I see Rivian / Also tapping that energy here in a way that moves far beyond what bikes today offer.
Great! Another bunch of micromobility products that nobody asked for.
And the price! I can buy 6 very decent Chinese ebikes of various formats for the $4500 this thing will cost. I'm sure it will be more advanced and nicely designed, but it's just way too expensive. Bicycles are a mass-market item. Price is the primary decider. If you want to be successful, you have to be cheaper than the competition.
Who is this for?
That's not even true for normal bicycles. Serious cyclists can spend massive amounts of cash on their rides.
Aside from that, if you're using this as a vehicle you want more than just the cheapest thing out there. Reliability and serviceability are important when not having the bike means you can't get to work or your kid's school.
It's sad to see so much effort being put into a product that is utterly uncool. Maybe start with the design (cool) and then integrate the mechanics. This is how companies design cool cars.
Not affiliated but I'm looking into converting my commuter bike with a kit from https://ebikes.ca. Seems to make more sense to turn any of the million bikes out there into an electric one using a reusable kit than buying a single purpose electric bike that will end up on the landfill once the company goes bust because no one wants to push around a bike that heavy.
$4500 is ten or more of my homebrew 750 watt electric mountain bike originally built in 2004. I just repowered with LiFePO4 after 10 years in storage and the new batteries really pull. It has a front hub motor with a throttle control limited to 20 mph. My commute is 10 miles, 6 on a dedicated bike path. Life is good.
My local bicycle dealer has models in the window up to 15k$. There’s a market for such priced products.
Oh, clearly. But for that money I'd buy a really nice BMW i3 REX. Obviously not an option for everyone.
What kind of capacity from your LFP battery? Is it diy built? I did one in the spring 16S with 25Ah cells and it's been amazing since. Only problem is it's a bit too big to fit anywhere I'd like it to. I have to mount it on a rear rack
I am using 3x 12v 185wh batteries in series. Realistically I can count on around 500wh. They are only 3 lbs each and fit neatly within the frame of the mtb. I don't like having them up on the rear rack, they tend to make the tail of the bike wag a bit compared to low and centered.
https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/1o0qthk/dynagirl_ri...
I just 3d printed protective covers for them last week when marketing turned their back on the new Bambu printer.
808Wh battery and 100 miles of range. These two numbers track with each other and are roughly believable.
OTOH, with a battery this big, a generator powered by the pedals, and regen braking this thing has to be heavy. I'd expect it to weigh at least 80 lbs. More likely 100. The fact that their "specs" say nothing about weight suggests they're embarrassed about the weight.
Regen braking is how you can tell this was designed by a moron. The energy balance simply does not favor regenerative braking on a bicycle, especially a bicycle that flippantly ignores aerodynamics like this one does. A bicyclist loses roughly all of their energy to air resistance. It's not a truck. There is not substantial potential energy to be recaptured going down hills.
What I want ... not an E-bike, but an E-version of the BMW C1
Critical features: 1. moderate weather protection 2. vastly improved crash protection 3. top speed above 50mph 4. luggage capacity of a small flatbed trailer
I acknowledge the utility of e-bikes for many; for me, I prefer my non-e bike when I want to ride my bike, but would love an e-motorycle as an alternative to 80% of my car trips.
https://www.theautopian.com/bmws-first-scooter-had-a-ridicul...
You‘re in luck BMW recently presented their vision CE.
https://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/en/experience/stories/urban-m...
Christ what an ugly kludge. Just spend a weekend in Amsterdam and check out the Tenways and the Vanmoof roaming the streets for an idea how to do it, if not right, at least decently
> Also also unveiled its Alpha Wave helmet.... It also features integrated lights and a four-speaker, wind-shielded internal audio system with two noise-canceling mics. The helmet integrates with the TM-B’s console, where music, calls, and podcasts can be controlled on the bike.
In an ideal world these would be great features to have, but in the real world, where so many places have a near complete absence of safe cycling infrastructure and bicycles are casually mixed in with giant trucks it's a bit of a scary notion to reduce your situational awareness with a great sound system and the distraction of doing your morning zoom standup while cycling to work (I've done this before lol, tho most of my commute is in separated bike lanes...).
This points to the headwinds to adoption and success of the Also, which is that so many cities are ambivalent and uninterested if not outright ideologically opposed to building safe all ages and abilities bike lanes. That sort of safe infrastructure is critical to the success of a product like this. It's really unfortunate.
I've seen a lot of people use noise cancelling ear buds on roads using pedal bikes, so I don't see how this is any different really.
I just added strips of fake fur to the straps my boring old helmet to diffuse the wind noise the same way a "dead cat" cover on a microphone does. They look a bit like muttonchops which is a bonus as far as I am concerned. I use wraparound bone conduction headphones that don't block my ears. I would be afraid of losing an expensive earbud.
Very interesting, really liking the swappable components in the quad. I'm a big cyclist but have been looking for something new to take around for commuting that isn't a scooter.
Great to see more manufacturers getting in on micromobility options.
a full suspension e-bike, 500+Wh battery, with a belt drive for $4,500 is honestly a really good deal. There is a shortage of options when it comes to full-suspension bikes that are good for commutes. Compare this to any e-bike with the Bosch e-bike system. The big risk here for consumers if whether they can match the service, support, and reliability that Bosch has. There appears to be a class-2 e-bike option which is something that significantly differentiates it from bikes with the Bosch system.
I really don't get what the point of the pedals on a thing like this, though. I guess mainly to satisfy some sort of regulations which separate bikes and motorcycle like vehicles? Considering that they aren't even connected to the drivetrain...
Based on the video and rivian history I think they wanted to redesign from the ground up a bike to match the packaging success they had at rivian and companies like lucid vs how legacy automakers approached it. The problem is the current laws about bikes and ebikes limited them and they had to make many tradeoffs which is what we are looking at. I guess we will find it if it was worth it to go ground up vs more off the shelf. As a rivian owner I'm concerned about repair-ability and maintenance.
In the U.S., there are 3 classes of e-bike: Class 1: pedal-assist only up to 20mph (helmets optional for adults) Class 2: same as Class 1 but with optional throttle to 20mph Class 3: pedal-assist only up to 28mph (helmets required, adults only)
There's also a maximum power rating of 750 watts for all of these. I'm not sure where the "pedal by wire" feature is from a regulatory perspective, but to me this fits into either class 2 or 3 depending on what option you get.
My state doesn't even require helmets for motorcyclists. I am guessing any regulations on e-bikes date back to the days when 2-stroke "moped" bikes were briefly popular.
Some people actually do like to double up a bit of exercise with their commute.
I was in the market for a commuter recently and my runner-up was this bike from Bulls (German brand trying to break into the US market) with full suspension, a Bosch motor, and coming in at a staggeringly light 58 lbs (battery included) for $3300. Extremely tempting, if I hadn't managed to snag a heavily-discounted Aventon Level 2 instead. https://bullsbikesusa.com/products/iconic-evo-tr-1-750
120mm seems like an absurd amount of travel for ostensibly what is a city bike
that's a nice bike! bummer that the rear rack isn't co-sprung.
The article clearly states it’s class 3.
From the article:
> It also features a throttle good for 20mph where regulations allow.
That must mean they have a class 2 option.
You can usually limit the bike to go less than 20mph in those cases.
It would be nice to have the GPS automatically set the pedal assist max speed when riding on shared paths with pedestrians and people.
I have also seen road bikers on those same shared paths pedal faster than 20mph.
The way I read it is if you use throttle-only you can reach 20 mph, but then if adding pedal-power you reach 28 mph. The pedal is probably not generating sufficient force to add 8 mph, but it’s telling the control system to do that.
class 2 and class 3 are mutually exclusive. You cannot legally have an e-bike that supports throttle up to 20mph that can also continue to e-assist if you pedal up to 28mph. While it's technically possible in software to switch between these modes, consumers aren't supposed to be able to do this on their own.
"Honestly" does not make it a "really good" deal.
It's an e-bike. The competition is stiff, better looking, and better priced.
If they're lucky, this will appeal to university professors and over achieving parents of unsuspecting kids who want a cool bike but got an expensive dorky one instead.
The e-bike market has multiple tiers/segments. This is not priced to compete with brands like Rad Power Bikes, Lectric, or Aventon. It's likely going to compete with brands like Tern, Benno, Gazelle, Trek, etc.
edit: ask yourself why the median new car in the US sells for over $50k when you can easily find cars for less than half that price.
I find it hard to imagine what the overlap between this and e.g. ebikes from Trek, though. Besides the price of course... It's an entirely different product.
I have a 750W e-bike (which actually means 750W peak, 500W sustained).
There are hills near my house that my bike can not make it up without significant pedal assist.
If the motor and power electronics on this e-bike can only handle 750W peak, 500W sustained, as is common and I think is possibly even legislated in parts of the U.S., this bike will not be able to make it up serious hills.
With a normal e-bike, your pedaling is additive to the motor. That is not the case with this design.
Given it can output 180Nm I expect this thing can get up whatever hill you point it at
If the motor is geared it could make a difference. For comparison, most people put out about 100 watts with their legs, but need to downshift to go up hills. This looks like a mid drive unit, which should be capable of varied gearing.
I was looking for where the gearing was and it doesn't appear to be in the wheels. It looks like it's in the hub.
I have a bike with an automatic transmission and it handles steep hills just fine.
But generally speaking, I would expect the bike at this price point to have an automatic transmission.
Despite the complaints in this thread there is already a market for $4k ebikes. And people are buying them. The bike competes with a bunch of e-bikes in that price range, Evelo Omega, Bosch, etc. So they're hardly a first mover. They are optimizing that market.
yeah but what's the point? At this price point alibaba monsters are far more powerful and real bicycles far more bicycle-like. These will sell a 10-20k units and fade into obscurity like Van Moofs and other disruptive bicycles before them.
People typically don't buy big ticket goods from a company named "YACCEEZY" like you might see on Amazon or Aliexpress these days.
It's worth noting that Hyundai had a similar issue when it entered the US market. It was an uphill battle to market itself to convince people to spend thousands of dollars of money on a no-name car brand.
"Drive by Wire"? This is not even anywhere near a "bike". At least you could argue "e-bikes" could still be pedaled without the battery. It's not that anybody would want to or even could, but an argument could be made.
This is a motorcycle. It's a cycle with a motor.
I love that the popularity of motorcycling is taking off with better batteries, motors, and control systems!
It's motorcycling though :-)
inadequate suspension to be classified as a motorbike imo
In terms of travel it has as much as a normal motorcycle. Which is really absurd for a 24" bike even with those stubby crank arms.
I ride a class-3 Tern cargo bike with 400Wh battery and this range is very optimistic, especially since this is pedal-by-wire. Also what happens when the battery runs out, because you can just ride without assist on any Bosch e-bike.
Game over with a dead battery, I would think, though I suppose it's possible that the generator you're pedaling is enough for very slow movement without the battery boost...
Most visibly interesting part to me is the frame design without a rear triangle (no seatstay) like a motorcycle or dirtbike.
Materials must be real strong to withstand all the torque forces without a rear triangle, right? Any other e-bikes like this?
I'm liking aspects of the design, but I'm concerned about weight and overengineering of simple stuff like the seatpost bracket.
Also, the "TM-B Reservation Token" smacks of egregious marketeering.
Still, this looks like a solid ebike.
This new e-bike news drops just as Cory Ellison arrives at his mom’s in a Rivian. Great job marketing dept!
I walked past a near identical delivery quad to their TM-Q not an hour ago.
Bear with me I don't know much about bikes but I have this honest question: why does it need a chain, and won't place the engine (or whatever gear box it has) directly on the wheel?
Dirt bikes and many motorcycles also have chains, this allows you to change gears to adjust torque (alternatives include shaft and belt drives).
E-bikes can have the motors on the wheel (hub-drive) or on the pedal (mid-drive). This choice is largely related to how much you want your e-bike to really be a scooter or really be providing pedal assist. As a consequence hub-drive e-bikes typically have a throttle while mid-drive do not.
A good mid-drive e-bike really makes it feel like you are a super human cyclist rather than riding a scooter. It leads to a much smoother riding experience if your aim is to still be essentially bicycling but you'd like to get moving faster and not break a sweet even on the most extreme hills.
I have a couple of mid-drive e-bikes (Bafang motors) with throttles. Throttled mid-drives let you get the best of both worlds: Great pedal assist combined with the ability to just be a scooter when you get tired. And I agree that mid-drive is the way to go if you want to ride on hills. If you commute in San Francisco for example, a hub drive e-bike will not help you much but a mid-drive will change your life.
> A good mid-drive e-bike really makes it feel like you are a super human cyclist
Of course. But the pedals on this thing aren't even connected to the drivetrain. So what is the benefit in this specific case?
Completely agree. They should probably just remove the pedals and generator entirely and save that weight. But then legally it becomes a scooter and probably would require a license and be more limited as to where it could go.
Putting the motor into the wheel makes for an excellent riding experience, I have a Bionx rear wheel (out of business) that is connected to the chain ring and pedals in the traditional way. The wheel detects torque from pedaling and applies it's own torque to drive the wheel. It can be used with and without power and feels almost seamless and is silent.
Unfortunately it seems to be difficult to engineer and build these wheel motors for reliability and longevity. They significanly increase the unsprung mass of the wheel which leads to increased wear on the hub components.
The biggest reason is minimizing unsprung mass, the performance of the rear suspension would be much worse with a hub motor.
does that actually matter much on anything except dirt-bike tracks, or trying to go 40mph on a horrifically bumpy track? minus some comfort advantage, of course.
like technically, sure, it's obviously true. but for performance it only really matters when you would get air time with higher mass, and the lower mass stays in contact more. commuter e-biking generally doesn't get anywhere near those speeds or bump-sizes. (trail biking: sure! I 100% believe it's a sizable consideration there)
I've never ridden a full suspension with a hub motor so I can't say, but my guess is that yes, it would make a pretty big difference with an aggressive rider or poor quality streets. It's not just keeping contact that matters, its the consistency and quality of contact, especially with a super torquey motor ready to jump at a twitch of your thumb. Its of course not necessary for commuter biking, but neither is basically anything on this premium product aside from the wheels and pedals.
Also to note, they are very much marketing it as a trail bike in addition to a commuter so it's not surprising they would spend a bit to optimize for ride quality and traction.
So it will appear as a bicycle and be allowed on paths in parks (is what I'm guessing).
It's a backup so that if you do lose power, you can still pedal home. Major pain to pedal an 80 lb fixed gear bike, but This is standard on ebikes and doesn't contribute much weight or cost in itself.
It's not clear if their design allows for it from the details in the article, but you'd want a chain in case you run out of battery so you can pedal manually.
mid-drive e-bikes like this one are generally more expensive also but more efficient than rear hub motor systems. They also provide better overall weight distribution.
Reeks of Juicero.
NFS lock and unlock. GPS locator. Capacitance touchscreen controls. Hydraulic disc brakes.
Companion helmet with wirelessly connected brake lights, and noise cancelling(?!) speakers.
Why do we need to learn the same lessons over and over again?
There's nothing wrong with hydraulic disc brakes on an e-bike, except that hydraulic brakes are hard to maintain yourself without special tools. All e-bikes need disc brakes, period. Any e-bike (or any merely heavy bike) is unsafe without disc brakes. Whether those brakes are mechanical or hydraulic doesn't matter nearly as much as the fact that they use discs.
Hydraulic brakes are great. I have them on two bikes and would certainly buy them again.
The bike cost nowhere near $4500 and certainly doesn't have any "smart" integration other than a holder for my phone, which I added myself for $13.
There's literally thousands of e-bikes with touch screens and it would be unsafe for a bike of this weight to have anything other than hydraulic disc brakes, which are the standard for just about anything that isn't a road bike these days. Locator also pretty common even on $1,000 ebikes.
But yes, other stuff seems to be features for the sake of features.
A touchscreen on a primarily-outdoor device makes no sense to me. It's just a single point of failure for fanciness. Transit safety should be taken more seriously, with controls you can operate by feel, rather than vision. It's not important if lots and lots of companies include this single point of failure.
Edit: also, don't capacitive screens kinda suck if they get a little wet? like what, you just can't use the screen controls while it's raining without risking unlocking your seat 40,000 times in a half second due to a stray raindrop sitting on the screen? Feels like resistive would explicitly be superior here. You probably don't need huge accuracy for what should ideally be a spacious display anyways.
E-bikes with properly adjusted mechanical disc brakes are perfectly safe, and mechanical brakes are easy to adjust yourself without the need to take them to a bike shop. It's the discs that are important -- not whether they are mechanical or hydraulic.
conversely hydraulics don't need adjustment
...except when they do. If you get a leak or an air bubble for example and have to flush the system, you'll need a trip to the bike shop.
If you put miles on your bike and ride hills, you'll spend way more time fiddling with an allen/torx on the inboard pad or the adjustment barrel on the cable as your pads wear. The bleeding procedure for hydraulics is for sure messier, but still very doable in 5 minutes. When you do have air in the system, pumping the lever a bit gives you back some braking function.
I wouldn’t lump disk brakes in with the rest of those, maybe the hydraulic part is overkill though.
Hydraulic disc brakes aren't really overkill on an e-bike, it's a safety thing. You really don't want to skimp out on stopping power when your heavy bike has a powerful motor.
> maybe the hydraulic part is overkill though
Not for an e-bike it isn't. In fact, I'd say if you're not rocking hydraulic brakes on an e-bike, you're asking for a bad time. I know that most lower end e-bikes don't come with them standard, but to me, it's a necessary and immediate upgrade for safety.
The $999 Lectric XP4 has hydraulic disc brakes. While uncommon at that price point, it's not unusual to see them on $1500-2k e-bikes.
I bought complete hydraulic disc brake set for $40 on Ali Express. Mechanical brakes cannot be much cheaper.
My ebike has hydraulic disk brakes and a CVT, e bikes have moved forward from the bike-shaped-object era
They've moved on from the 'can maintain/repair it with basic tools' era. Soon they'll be dependent on the cloud and subscription services...
(Kind of amazed that wireless derailleurs became a thing. Replacing a simple mechanical device with complex tech requiring two batteries)
Enviolo CVT? I'm curious about how you like it. I rented a Blue Bike in Boston with a CVT and loved it.
Non-hydraulic discs suck. You get better braking power out of decent rim brakes.
I respectfully disagree. I've owned and ridden several ebikes with mechanical disc brakes. When they're properly adjusted they have just as much stopping power as hydraulics.
Hydraulic disc brakes are not overkill with a bike of that mass [0] and power. Disc brakes are very common mountain bikes or any type where there is a lot of braking as caliper/rim brakes can overheat and pop the tires, so this unit should definitely have disc brakes. Hydraulic is better than cable/mechanical as hydraulic can generate more braking power, have better feel, and stay in better adjustment. The only downside vs cable+disc is cable is more repairable in the field.
[0] (overall specs indicate a lot of weight, Rivian are not proud enough of any lightweighting to even print the weight, and their autos are also very heavy, indicating a lack of lightweight engineering discipline in that shop which may carry over to their other mobility solutions)
I'm with you on the automatic lock/unlock and full-touch controls, I don't like either of those design choices in cars and I don't want them in a bike either.
That said a GPS locator is great on an e-bike. They're high value theft targets, anything that makes them harder to steal, easier to track, or otherwise reduces the appeal of stealing one is a good thing.
Hydraulic disc brakes are a great thing even on non-electronic bikes. I won't buy another bike without them. My hardtail mountain bike, gravel bike, and e-cruiser are all hydraulic discs.
Hydraulic disc brakes are table stakes for a mountain or gravel bike nowadays. Dual or preferably quad piston calipers on a big rotor make a significant difference when it comes to stopping power.
Having hydraulic disc brakes on a bicycle like this isn't something odd. Tons of regular bicycles have them these days.
The only kind of weird thing I see here is the idea the pedals aren't actually directly connected to the drive train, they just turn a generator.
That’s going to separate force-applied from force-required while riding - a much more comfortable pedal action.
What does "NFS" stand for in this context?
https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/NFS
I think they meant NFC (as in Near Field Communication).
A typo for NFC seems likely.
They mean NFC, I think.
What? lol
The issue with juicero is that their hardware design was needlessly and insanely over complicated, like magnitudes past anything I’m seeing here - and they DRMd something that didn’t need to be DRMd (juice)
For this bike, those are features people regularly want in e-bikes and cost very little to add - the bike already needs a capable cpu for battery management and acceleration curve controlling.
These are features that people differentiate these pseudo motorcycles on. “We” have learned the lesson.
The helmet is very juicero tho
ah yes hydraulic disk brakes on like 80lbs bike is exactly like juicero
Only 28mph max speed, and the firmware might actually be properly protected from this bug being easily fixed. I'll stick to my Chinese scooters run by code-unlocked STM32F103 clones i can easily cure of such idiocy.
The battery system here sounds so sweet. Swappable, with a respectable 0.5kWh and then an Extended Range 0.8kWh is excellent.
Usb-c chargeable at 240W is divinely sweet. Maybe maybe some day dual USB would be nice (for the ER especially) but this is quite respectable. And by not trying to super fast charge the battery will live longer anyhow.
Being removable is another nice win, if not uncommon. I don't know which other batteries provide USB power even without the bike, which again is such a great nice to have: take the bike to a park then bring with an charge some phones or what-not.
In the future I really hope we see some battery alliances, making some form factors, and centralizing on usb-c. As would be good common sense. The overlap between a bike battery and standalone Delta or Ecoflow battery power station is huge, and Rivian here seems a little further along than most at hybridizing & generalizing a battery system: obvious win to anyone paying attention!
The modularity could be a major win too. I'd love to see a an e-bike maker go down the Ford Bronco path & add a bunch of attachments points and replaceable/modular pieces to the design, and release all the specs for free use! Even if it only is Rivian and some partners doing this here, this is the way, it feels like:
> The top frame of the TM-B is modular by design, so the bike can be transformed without tools into a cargo hauler, kid carrier, or cruiser with a bench seat.
Cargo haulers easily climb to the 6000$ ranges. And the massive 180NM motor here will not bat an eye!
One thing I'd love to see: a stationary bike mode. Bring it inside for the winter & do spin class, charging up the battery. The full series hybrid, no mechanical linkage, doesnt deel super super practical to be honest but it's interesting!
A lot of nice basic things that make sense. Like no longer needing special cherging equipment for reasonably good capacity chwrging (albeit most usb-c chargers will only be doing 100w for a while now, but that seems fine).
bikes are already highly "modular" in that outside of ebike motor systems you can swap most parts. Bikes like the Rivian in the article would only work if ruggedized and sold to fleets. As a consumer you'd just get something from Specialized at this price point since it won't be worthless in 2 years time.
Agreed that bikes do often exhibit some level of modularity. But attaching a front or back cargo rack or kid carrier gets pretty finicky pretty quick: most e-bikers tend to just buy the (often quite expensive) 1st party gear, because it'll actually fit right.
This bike seems to have only a single major modular system, but it comprises such a massive part of the bike: there's a big stem-post that attaches to the drive unit. Being able to swap that stem-post out for other things allows for really big changes, imo. You could build some really cool really neat different top-sides atop this bike, with really weird cargo or kid shapes.
I would love to see smaller level modularity too. I'm really impressed by the Bronco, and how they've clearly worked very hard to make it a "car as a platform", opening up as much space as they can for aftermarket parts & 3d printing people to build everything from cup-holders/interior fixing to body-panels (dunno the best link for this, but for ex: https://thebronconation.com/more-bronco-modularity-fender-fl...). I see Rivian / Also tapping that energy here in a way that moves far beyond what bikes today offer.
The kid carrier looks dangerously top heavy.
Great! Another bunch of micromobility products that nobody asked for. And the price! I can buy 6 very decent Chinese ebikes of various formats for the $4500 this thing will cost. I'm sure it will be more advanced and nicely designed, but it's just way too expensive. Bicycles are a mass-market item. Price is the primary decider. If you want to be successful, you have to be cheaper than the competition. Who is this for?
> Price is the primary decider
That's not even true for normal bicycles. Serious cyclists can spend massive amounts of cash on their rides.
Aside from that, if you're using this as a vehicle you want more than just the cheapest thing out there. Reliability and serviceability are important when not having the bike means you can't get to work or your kid's school.
Wow, cool bike! Said nobody.
It's sad to see so much effort being put into a product that is utterly uncool. Maybe start with the design (cool) and then integrate the mechanics. This is how companies design cool cars.
Hey Dean Kamen,
See how it just becomes a bicycle when it's discharged or broken? This is much, much closer to what we expected from the Segway.