For folks who are not familiar w/ machine shops, the lathe is a fundamental tool in a shop, and is the only tool in a shop which can replicate itself --- there is even a book series which uses this conceit, the "Gingery Books":
where Vol. 1 has one setting up an aluminum casting foundry in one's backyard, and Vol. 2 has one using it to make a lathe which is then used to either improve itself or make a better lathe, then one uses it to make the balance of the tools in a machine shop.
A lathe can't actually replicate itself completely. Specifically, a lathe can only make ways smaller than its own cross slide's stroke. It would also be impossible to make a typical lathe bed on a lathe, though you theoretically could design an unconventional lathe bed that is possible to make on a lathe, even if grossly impractical.
The real starting point for machine precision is rubbing 3 granite plates together.
You can see a guy following Dave Gingery's instructions to make a lathe bed here [1]
And as you say, a granite surface plate is needed. Of course, Gingery's books only claimed to set up a metalworking shop starting "from scrap" and "simple hand methods" and that "it isn’t long before the developing machines are doing much of the work to produce their own parts" [2]
Of course, to truly make a lathe from scratch, you must first create the universe.
Does anybody actually use the three plate method with granite? It was originally done with cast iron, and I thought cast iron was still the standard material. The plates are covered with dye and rubbed together to find the high points, which are then scraped off, instead of being removed by the rubbing directly.
Granite is a common material for modern surface plates (and a good one because it doesn't rust and doesn't raise burrs if it's chipped), but I believe these are still made using cast iron reference plates.
From what I understand the three plate method is when you are going from 0 to flat as the errors are averaged out.
Doing the "covered with dye and rubbed together to find the high points, which are then scraped off" thing is only if you already have a flat reference surface as you wouldn't have a way to know if the thing you're trying to make flat is really flat.
The real question is how do you get the first flat reference surface when all you have are a few somewhat flat things?
Related to the Moore's work, I also enjoyed Engineering reminescences[0] as a historical account how people figured out ways to make accurate things in metal, more than a hundred years ago.
Lathes can make cylinders, but not of unlimited length in one setup so they lose some accuracy making cylinders longer than their carriage travel. And their beds are by necessity longer than their carriage travel, since the carriage rides along the bed and isn't infinitely thin. They also can't make things like motor stator laminations, and you definitely need a motor for a replica of a motorized lathe. So lathes can't replicate themselves exactly.
Milling machines are also just lathes with a different orientation, an extra travel axis, and a motor optimized for higher speeds & lower torques, it's possible (and reasonably common) to use a mill like a lathe or a lathe like a mill in many cases. So "only machine" part is also a stretch.
> and is the only tool in a shop which can replicate itself
The real quote is a lathe can build any tool in a machine shop, - including itself. The books your mention describe how to build a lathe with the lathe you are building. (they assume surface plates that the other reply mentioned, but that too is something you can create)
You can buy the full series. Or check the likes of amazon. The books were first written in 1980, so they are fairly widespread. You can find plenty of youtube videos of people trying to make them, and once in a while forums dedicated to people making them (and suggested upgrades). They are not the best machine cools you can get/make, but they are serious tools and better than most DIY attempts (though the video here is better than most DIY attempts I've seen)
People interested in this might also appreciate this small channel: a no-holds-barred 5 axis machine with expected sub-micron precision. I've learned a lot about what kind of components are available when budget is not an issue (I'll bet this machine will cost 100k by the time it's done).
https://www.youtube.com/@kasramehraky9283
For a more rough and ready, but quite entertaining, version of the DIY CNC (mill however) build there's the sage of Not An Engineer's build of a DIY CNC mill.
Why cast such negative aspersions on a stranger doing good work?
If you are smart and patient you can find good used machine tools for very cheap. I would guess that buying a new Honda Civic costs more than what this person has in their shop. Buying a bunch of tools that will hold their value while producing more value is not a sign of being reckless with someone else’s money.
Would you make such judgements about every Honda owner for spending a five figure sum?
I've been following Cylo's Garage for a while. I'm excited to see where he goes. Reminds me of Applied Science meets Tom Lipton, Robin Renzetti, or Dan Gelbart.
Worth noting that the lathe project itself is on indefinite hiatus right now as I understand it, so don't hold your breath waiting to see finished results.
Normally I would assume that a YouTuber claiming to have built a more accurate DIY CNC lathe than Dan Gelbart's was full of shit, especially if he didn't mention Gelbart in the title. But Cylo's Garage is an exception. His objective is diamond-turning optics. So he does need tighter precision than Gelbart's 1μm, and he's been working toward achieving it in an astounding fashion for years—inspired, he tells us in the video, by Gelbart.
This video, though? You know how people say "this meeting could have been an email"? This video could have been a web page. Or an email. It's just a set of slides with a voiceover. Save yourself the time and just read the subtitles:
yt-dlp --write-info-json --write-sub --write-auto-sub --sub-lang en --restrict-filenames https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEr2CJruwEM
It's so cool to see Cylo get posted here. I remember finding his channel via an air bearing video years ago and being so impressed at what a (then) kid was doing, cool to see him still doing stuff and getting recognized for it. For anyone enjoying this Dan Gelberts video on his lathe, which I think inspired this, is worth watching. Robin Renzetti also does cool precision focused stuff but I don't know if he does Youtube much anymore.
It would be interesting to see someone use basic hand tools to build up the evolutionary steps towards high end machining or manufacturing machines of all kinds. Sort of a playbook to restart civilization.
For folks who are not familiar w/ machine shops, the lathe is a fundamental tool in a shop, and is the only tool in a shop which can replicate itself --- there is even a book series which uses this conceit, the "Gingery Books":
https://gingerybookstore.com/
where Vol. 1 has one setting up an aluminum casting foundry in one's backyard, and Vol. 2 has one using it to make a lathe which is then used to either improve itself or make a better lathe, then one uses it to make the balance of the tools in a machine shop.
A lathe can't actually replicate itself completely. Specifically, a lathe can only make ways smaller than its own cross slide's stroke. It would also be impossible to make a typical lathe bed on a lathe, though you theoretically could design an unconventional lathe bed that is possible to make on a lathe, even if grossly impractical.
The real starting point for machine precision is rubbing 3 granite plates together.
You can see a guy following Dave Gingery's instructions to make a lathe bed here [1]
And as you say, a granite surface plate is needed. Of course, Gingery's books only claimed to set up a metalworking shop starting "from scrap" and "simple hand methods" and that "it isn’t long before the developing machines are doing much of the work to produce their own parts" [2]
Of course, to truly make a lathe from scratch, you must first create the universe.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPGZg45dGXA [2] https://gingerybookstore.com/MetalWorkingShopFromScrapSeries...
Does anybody actually use the three plate method with granite? It was originally done with cast iron, and I thought cast iron was still the standard material. The plates are covered with dye and rubbed together to find the high points, which are then scraped off, instead of being removed by the rubbing directly.
Granite is a common material for modern surface plates (and a good one because it doesn't rust and doesn't raise burrs if it's chipped), but I believe these are still made using cast iron reference plates.
From what I understand the three plate method is when you are going from 0 to flat as the errors are averaged out.
Doing the "covered with dye and rubbed together to find the high points, which are then scraped off" thing is only if you already have a flat reference surface as you wouldn't have a way to know if the thing you're trying to make flat is really flat.
The real question is how do you get the first flat reference surface when all you have are a few somewhat flat things?
Yeah, that's a different book, _Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy_:
https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262130806/foundations-of-mechan...
Related to the Moore's work, I also enjoyed Engineering reminescences[0] as a historical account how people figured out ways to make accurate things in metal, more than a hundred years ago.
0: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/72043
Lathes can certainly make cylinders, and a tube-based lathe bed is not a stretch.
A lathe can't replicate its own assembly, of course. It can't seat the spindle in the constraint bearings, for instance.
A CNC (without the word lathe) can make most of itself, and possible all. Nope: certainly all, if two of its dimensions fit within its work volume.
Lathes can make cylinders, but not of unlimited length in one setup so they lose some accuracy making cylinders longer than their carriage travel. And their beds are by necessity longer than their carriage travel, since the carriage rides along the bed and isn't infinitely thin. They also can't make things like motor stator laminations, and you definitely need a motor for a replica of a motorized lathe. So lathes can't replicate themselves exactly.
Milling machines are also just lathes with a different orientation, an extra travel axis, and a motor optimized for higher speeds & lower torques, it's possible (and reasonably common) to use a mill like a lathe or a lathe like a mill in many cases. So "only machine" part is also a stretch.
But it can't make cylinders as long as its own guide ways.
make me a truly flat surface
> and is the only tool in a shop which can replicate itself
The real quote is a lathe can build any tool in a machine shop, - including itself. The books your mention describe how to build a lathe with the lathe you are building. (they assume surface plates that the other reply mentioned, but that too is something you can create)
s/conceit/concept/
most are sold out any kinks to ebooks sold?
You can buy the full series. Or check the likes of amazon. The books were first written in 1980, so they are fairly widespread. You can find plenty of youtube videos of people trying to make them, and once in a while forums dedicated to people making them (and suggested upgrades). They are not the best machine cools you can get/make, but they are serious tools and better than most DIY attempts (though the video here is better than most DIY attempts I've seen)
People interested in this might also appreciate this small channel: a no-holds-barred 5 axis machine with expected sub-micron precision. I've learned a lot about what kind of components are available when budget is not an issue (I'll bet this machine will cost 100k by the time it's done). https://www.youtube.com/@kasramehraky9283
Those are the kind of CNC kept in isolated rooms, and covered in gold foil to reflect heat. No humans allowed during the measurement cycle.
For a more rough and ready, but quite entertaining, version of the DIY CNC (mill however) build there's the sage of Not An Engineer's build of a DIY CNC mill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uallSKJGoug&list=PL3NwjxPeyb...
I love that channel so much
Not CNC, but I am addicted to the Cutting Edge Engineering channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2wdo5vU7bPBNzyC2nnwmNQ
Before I started watching CEE, I watched Abom79
https://www.youtube.com/@Abom79/videos
He has a bunch of lathe video's too.
Sadly no episode this week as Kurtis' father died unexpectedly.
I can't believe this kid can afford an incredible amount of expensive tools.. daddys money?
Why cast such negative aspersions on a stranger doing good work?
If you are smart and patient you can find good used machine tools for very cheap. I would guess that buying a new Honda Civic costs more than what this person has in their shop. Buying a bunch of tools that will hold their value while producing more value is not a sign of being reckless with someone else’s money.
Would you make such judgements about every Honda owner for spending a five figure sum?
I've been following Cylo's Garage for a while. I'm excited to see where he goes. Reminds me of Applied Science meets Tom Lipton, Robin Renzetti, or Dan Gelbart.
Worth noting that the lathe project itself is on indefinite hiatus right now as I understand it, so don't hold your breath waiting to see finished results.
Most do not understand how difficult these machines are to handle, but there are some completed specialty CNC builds around.
"High precision air bearing CNC lathe and grinder" (Dan Gelbart)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFrVdoOhu1Q
Cylo's Garage spent a lot of time exploring these designs. =3
Normally I would assume that a YouTuber claiming to have built a more accurate DIY CNC lathe than Dan Gelbart's was full of shit, especially if he didn't mention Gelbart in the title. But Cylo's Garage is an exception. His objective is diamond-turning optics. So he does need tighter precision than Gelbart's 1μm, and he's been working toward achieving it in an astounding fashion for years—inspired, he tells us in the video, by Gelbart.
This video, though? You know how people say "this meeting could have been an email"? This video could have been a web page. Or an email. It's just a set of slides with a voiceover. Save yourself the time and just read the subtitles:
For reading the subtitles file Building_the_most_accurate_DIY_CNC_lathe_in_the_world-[vEr2CJruwEM].en.vtt, http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/dev3/devtt.py may be useful.It's so cool to see Cylo get posted here. I remember finding his channel via an air bearing video years ago and being so impressed at what a (then) kid was doing, cool to see him still doing stuff and getting recognized for it. For anyone enjoying this Dan Gelberts video on his lathe, which I think inspired this, is worth watching. Robin Renzetti also does cool precision focused stuff but I don't know if he does Youtube much anymore.
Also of interest if you enjoy precision engineering: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFrVdoOhu1Q&pp=ygUdZGFuIGdlb...
Cyrus(creator of Cylo's Garage) written a paper on the diamond lathe design:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/178KoqYAQUScSW27opubo9K794Pe...
Another awesome video on precision engineering resources in the same channel:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FM9X_gjnleY
Results of Diamond lathe testing photage: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PuSHpD7hiQ0
It's kind of sad how much knowledge is hidden inside companies.
(I'm assuming something like this was achieved decades ago in certain companies.)
It would be interesting to see someone use basic hand tools to build up the evolutionary steps towards high end machining or manufacturing machines of all kinds. Sort of a playbook to restart civilization.
How To Make Everything on YouTube is along those lines
https://youtube.com/@htme