I know of some modern vehicles that will not start at all if you go about removing the telematics unit.
I am not sure how long will it take before you will not be able to buy a vehicle at all without having to consent to being monitored remotely 24x7, but it will happen sooner than later. And this coming from a developing country. Pretty sure it is much worse in the developed world.
I guess the market for second hand older vehicles might see an uptick because of this and might also see a boom in demand for expertise of maintaining and rejuvenating such vehicles.
I'm fearing the day when my quite old ICE car dies and I end up in a situation where the best option is a newer car that is a computer on wheels running software that I know will stop getting updates very quickly.
Of all the new cars ideas I've seen recently, only the Slate mini-truck seems to be taking a minimalist approach, with no fancy head unit or navigation system.
I'm hopeful that stuff like Android Auto or Apple CarPlay will continue moving some of the risky obsolete-able complexity away of the giant expensive machine I plan to keep for over a decade (the car) and into smaller easier-to-replace ones (my smartphone.)
A quick outline for those who haven't used them: The car's head-display becomes mostly-controlled by your phone, which is what supplies any navigation, music, podcasts, address-book, GPS, cellular data-connection, etc. Meanwhile the car focuses on providing the display/touchpad hardware, inputs from steering-wheel controls, and maybe AM/FM radio modes.
With the right vehicles/adapters I don't even need to take my phone out of my pocket, which is great because then I can't forget it in the car.
I'm not really worried about a lack of updates to an embedded device provided that it isn't network connected. To me the root of the issue, and also a far more concerning problem in and of itself, is that from what I understand modern vehicles are connected to the mobile network and phone home.
Same, early 2010s IMO seems to be the point where the industry really started to shift. There are some good cars from before this time, but keep them running past the 2030s will be a challenge.
On an adjacent theme there has been a large debate in Sweden if a car that has mandated automatic eCall over 2G or 3G is faulty and thus not roadworthy if the 2G and 3G networks are turned off. The eCall feature was introduced broadly in 2018. It still uses modem sounds over a voice phone call to relay car emergency status and position. New solutions for packet only networks (4g and 5G) have been standardised but are not retrofitted to older cars.
Concretely, why not? If you don't get updates, there's nothing to break the thing -- and if you don't have a network connection, you don't need the security updates.
I'm happy to manually apply updates for my immobilizer as necessary. Keyless entry is already broken (recent front page) and can't be fixed via update AFAIK at least without leaving behind all current fobs. Given that it's still using a proprietary encryption scheme from the mid 80s it doesn't seem the manufacturers were particularly concerned about security to begin with.
The govt should fund $1,000,000 bug bounties on these vehicles. If anyone succeeds in remotely gaining access to the mic, car companies are fined $100,000,000.
Had to look up "yuppie button" to figure out what they were on about.
Sounds like a fun fellow. Lights up all of the lights on the back of the car for funsies. Oh they're all DOT-approved, so it's probably a good idea. Definitely a safety feature. Their manifesto makes them totally believe that everyone else on the road is the problem.
I'm starting to think the short software support isn't a bug, it's a feature. They want the car to feel obsolete in 5 years so you're pushed into buying the next model. It's the smartphone sales model, but for a $50,000 purchase.
I am all for removing this needless communication the manufacturers are equipping cars with now, but between your cell phone associating with towers, the Flock cameras that every municipality has eagerly deployed, the repo bounty people driving parking lots with LPRs, and LEOs with on-car LPRs you're still being tracked.
It’s quite upsetting that if you want a modern car so that you utilise the newest advances in safety, you have to consent to constant tracking, enshitification, subscription services, etc. It would be really cool if you could get something like a ‘67 impala that doesn’t make ‘67 emissions and has actual seatbelts and airbags…
On the less-technical side, Hyundai has a corporate-legal mechanism to request "Delete personal information" [0] that might be worth doing, just to round things out.
> one step of which involved removing this "garnish" panel behind the screen. Easier said than done
Different year/model, but same experience with the same task: I really hate situations where the secret is "a suspicious amount of force", especially if there's no sufficiently trustworthy/detailed information showing that things can be pulled or pried in a certain manner.
> Having a couple of non-marring plastic pry tools does help with this sort of thing
IMO these are worth buying, they're quite cheap and trying to make-do with metal tools will cause more scratches and scrapes than you'd expect, no matter how careful you're trying to be.
If they had just clipped the antenna wires, how likely would that have disabled all outbound communication? Clearly not as good as disconnecting the modem (which removed some software checks), but more approachable without the multi hour disassembly.
If you install fully shielded resistors it can work, but shorting the antenna completely will have the added benefit of destroying the RF amplifier transistors. From then on the car will just think it’s out of cell range, and there’s not much chance of leaky signal. It’s not too hard to make shielded loads though.
I do prefer the option of removing the entire cellular module though.
Any non-disable-able connectivity will be an absolute deal breaker for me on any vehicle I own. I guess that probably means I’ll be buying used vehicles for the rest of my life, but it is what it is.
Nice work. I'm honestly surprised that the head unit didn't complain about the missing modem. Although it's far from returning to a simpler less software heavy car, removing the cellular connectivity is a promising start that surely hugely reduces the attack surface of the vehicle
I know of some modern vehicles that will not start at all if you go about removing the telematics unit.
I am not sure how long will it take before you will not be able to buy a vehicle at all without having to consent to being monitored remotely 24x7, but it will happen sooner than later. And this coming from a developing country. Pretty sure it is much worse in the developed world.
I guess the market for second hand older vehicles might see an uptick because of this and might also see a boom in demand for expertise of maintaining and rejuvenating such vehicles.
Some developing countries such as India, are completely banning the ply of old vehicles on the road.
I'm fearing the day when my quite old ICE car dies and I end up in a situation where the best option is a newer car that is a computer on wheels running software that I know will stop getting updates very quickly.
Of all the new cars ideas I've seen recently, only the Slate mini-truck seems to be taking a minimalist approach, with no fancy head unit or navigation system.
I'm hopeful that stuff like Android Auto or Apple CarPlay will continue moving some of the risky obsolete-able complexity away of the giant expensive machine I plan to keep for over a decade (the car) and into smaller easier-to-replace ones (my smartphone.)
A quick outline for those who haven't used them: The car's head-display becomes mostly-controlled by your phone, which is what supplies any navigation, music, podcasts, address-book, GPS, cellular data-connection, etc. Meanwhile the car focuses on providing the display/touchpad hardware, inputs from steering-wheel controls, and maybe AM/FM radio modes.
With the right vehicles/adapters I don't even need to take my phone out of my pocket, which is great because then I can't forget it in the car.
This is not the direction that the software is going in.
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2025/05/carplay-ultra-the-nex...
fascinating idea, but no mention of android. Would one (like me!) simply be unable to use this car to its full extent?
I'm not really worried about a lack of updates to an embedded device provided that it isn't network connected. To me the root of the issue, and also a far more concerning problem in and of itself, is that from what I understand modern vehicles are connected to the mobile network and phone home.
If you are not connected to the internet and installing the latest patches, you will be vulnerable to the next RCE!
Another option is converting an ICE car to EV:
https://openinverter.org/wiki/ZombieVerter_VCU https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43898280 https://youtube.com/@evbmw
Same, early 2010s IMO seems to be the point where the industry really started to shift. There are some good cars from before this time, but keep them running past the 2030s will be a challenge.
There are some good cars from before this time, but keep them running past the 2030s will be a challenge.
If it's a pre-computer car, all you need is a machine shop or access to one.
This problem solved itself on my car because it only has a 3G modem.
On an adjacent theme there has been a large debate in Sweden if a car that has mandated automatic eCall over 2G or 3G is faulty and thus not roadworthy if the 2G and 3G networks are turned off. The eCall feature was introduced broadly in 2018. It still uses modem sounds over a voice phone call to relay car emergency status and position. New solutions for packet only networks (4g and 5G) have been standardised but are not retrofitted to older cars.
There's no way they're going to keep a modular car functioning for years without relying on frequent software updates.
Did it for 100 years. Nkthing changed. They don't need to make cars into surveillance systems. That's a choice.
Concretely, why not? If you don't get updates, there's nothing to break the thing -- and if you don't have a network connection, you don't need the security updates.
You might need security updates for security systems, like immobilisers, keyless entry etc.
I'm happy to manually apply updates for my immobilizer as necessary. Keyless entry is already broken (recent front page) and can't be fixed via update AFAIK at least without leaving behind all current fobs. Given that it's still using a proprietary encryption scheme from the mid 80s it doesn't seem the manufacturers were particularly concerned about security to begin with.
Consider an electric cargo bike if you're life will suite it.
For what it's worth, the first Tesla model that ever got software upgrades is still getting them. That's the Model S from 2012.
The govt should fund $1,000,000 bug bounties on these vehicles. If anyone succeeds in remotely gaining access to the mic, car companies are fined $100,000,000.
I think that's more likely to get companies to remove mics than to make them secure.
good?
Government aren’t exactly the privacy guys …
Had to look up "yuppie button" to figure out what they were on about.
Sounds like a fun fellow. Lights up all of the lights on the back of the car for funsies. Oh they're all DOT-approved, so it's probably a good idea. Definitely a safety feature. Their manifesto makes them totally believe that everyone else on the road is the problem.
https://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/yb/
The techno fandom page is actually quite measured and reasonable. It's not a crazy idea to prevent dangerous behavior of those behind you.
If someone is tailgating me I just slow down gradually until they get mad and pass
I'm starting to think the short software support isn't a bug, it's a feature. They want the car to feel obsolete in 5 years so you're pushed into buying the next model. It's the smartphone sales model, but for a $50,000 purchase.
Planned obsolescence
Planned Obsolescence 2.0 - they can tell the system when it's time to die.
I am all for removing this needless communication the manufacturers are equipping cars with now, but between your cell phone associating with towers, the Flock cameras that every municipality has eagerly deployed, the repo bounty people driving parking lots with LPRs, and LEOs with on-car LPRs you're still being tracked.
Still, no reason to make it easier.
It can all be fought. https://deflock.me/
I keep my phone in Airplane Mode. Can't do a ton about private ALPRs except put peanut butter on them or whatever when you see em
It’s quite upsetting that if you want a modern car so that you utilise the newest advances in safety, you have to consent to constant tracking, enshitification, subscription services, etc. It would be really cool if you could get something like a ‘67 impala that doesn’t make ‘67 emissions and has actual seatbelts and airbags…
On the less-technical side, Hyundai has a corporate-legal mechanism to request "Delete personal information" [0] that might be worth doing, just to round things out.
> one step of which involved removing this "garnish" panel behind the screen. Easier said than done
Different year/model, but same experience with the same task: I really hate situations where the secret is "a suspicious amount of force", especially if there's no sufficiently trustworthy/detailed information showing that things can be pulled or pried in a certain manner.
> Having a couple of non-marring plastic pry tools does help with this sort of thing
IMO these are worth buying, they're quite cheap and trying to make-do with metal tools will cause more scratches and scrapes than you'd expect, no matter how careful you're trying to be.
[0] https://owners.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/privacy/data-request/new...
Plus they're fun to say. Spudger!
Yes. I, too, shall spudge.
If they had just clipped the antenna wires, how likely would that have disabled all outbound communication? Clearly not as good as disconnecting the modem (which removed some software checks), but more approachable without the multi hour disassembly.
If you install fully shielded resistors it can work, but shorting the antenna completely will have the added benefit of destroying the RF amplifier transistors. From then on the car will just think it’s out of cell range, and there’s not much chance of leaky signal. It’s not too hard to make shielded loads though.
I do prefer the option of removing the entire cellular module though.
Any non-disable-able connectivity will be an absolute deal breaker for me on any vehicle I own. I guess that probably means I’ll be buying used vehicles for the rest of my life, but it is what it is.
You generally have to disassemble far more annoying things to get to the antenna than to remove the head unit.
A better way might be to install dummy loads on the antenna outputs.
Nice work. I'm honestly surprised that the head unit didn't complain about the missing modem. Although it's far from returning to a simpler less software heavy car, removing the cellular connectivity is a promising start that surely hugely reduces the attack surface of the vehicle
My biggest gripe with the modern cars (looking at you EV) is they’re now made to be like a mobile phone with wheels
I guess the next thing is to kill the black box and you are set.