This does look very cool. But my advise for anyone suffering from pain to their arms, hands, backs, and any other body parts that usually hurt for people working on computer all day: Do modest, but regular mobility and strength exercises.
While having an ergonomic (and cool looking at that) setup is important, it wont save you from muscle atrophy. A physical therapist might help you find the right kind of exercises for you.
This is often not obvious, because the muscle you need to reinforce / train are often not actually the one hurting. And you need to do it regularly. But if you stick to it, the payoff is much better than any setup I ever had.
Full agree. My wife is a physical therapist (DPT, Northwestern) and the owner of a PT practice. I say this with some (very limited) authority, repeating things she has said to me:
1) Absolutely seek the advice of a good PT. It's not like going to a chiropractor where you'll get signed up for the "forever plan". You go, pay for a few visits or even just 1 and they will evaluate and give you things to do on your own. You're empowered directly to change your trajectory vs being reliant upon them week after week. In many states PTs have what is called "direct access" meaning they can see and treat you without any MD referrals being required. Also if you can afford it (HSA/FSA accounts are fine here), try to go to a "cash pay" PT that isn't burdened by death grip of our insurance system. You'll get better 1:1 attention and probably a much less overburdened PT.
2) Stand up and walk around at least a couple times an hour (I know, not practical for many of us) for 5 mins or so.
3) Sit on an exercise ball while at your desk and simultaneously think about your posture on a background thread. This will help you with core strength quite a bit over time. This is something most of us with desk jobs (and even most of us period) could use improvement on. She sees serious athletes who even have weak <random latin word> muscles hidden in spots they'd never think about.
4) Sometimes, like when it comes to pain in hands/wrists, you would want to seek out an occupational therapist (OT) instead of or in addition to a PT, who don't specialize in treating those types of dysfunctions.
Good luck getting/staying well!
disclaimer: This is not medical advice and I have zero formal training in any physical or medical science. Consult a professional. :)
> 2) Stand up and walk around at least a couple times an hour (I know, not practical for many of us) for 5 mins or so.
This is the easy bit. Just drink A LOT. Pick a drink, any drink. Caffeinated or not, carbonated or not. Whatever you like drinking and fits your diet. Keep drinking it at the appropriate temperature. You can geek out on the drinkware, I got a Stanley Stein, which will keep an iced beverage cool for 8 hours easily.
Nature will make sure you have to get up more than once during the day =)
Yup, can confirm. Had forearm pain for years (started in the wrists when I started using a laptop at school), did the whole round of ergonomic keyboards, joystick-mouse, etc. Eventually went to a personal trainer who had me try pushups, couldn't do them because of wrist pain. He then made me do deadlifts, which were tricky at first because my grip strength wasn't great, but after just a few sessions it improved markedly, and with it, my wrist/forearm pain. Long-term relief, too. I'm only now (seven, eight years later?) starting to feel it again.
I had a similar experience. Until I started exercising, I had very bad pain in my shoulders and neck from too much desk work. Every couple of weeks I would develop a "stiff neck". I also had pain in my wrists occasionally.
Lifting weights for one hour twice a week has alleviated my problems completely. I feel healthier than ever!
My theory is that because your muscles are a little bit tensed for a long period of time, there's not enough movement to move the blood and lactic acid around, and eventually it builds up and becomes painful.
So even just doing a little bit of mobility exercises with light weights helps a lot.
> This is often not obvious, because the muscle you need to reinforce / train are often not actually the one hurting.
As someone who has done physical therapy for different issues, this is spot on. Lower back issues were actually due to weak hamstrings, and ankle issues due to weak calves.
Doing daily mobility and strength exercises as part of my mourning routine improved my health as a whole. A couple months in, and all random aches, pains, and soreness that i'd feel upon waking up or during the day were simply gone. And it only takes me 30 minutes a day. It's a pretty awesome alternative to doom scrolling.
Not the commenter, but AFAIK, people with some condition might have to put significantly more effort, at least at the beginning, to get equivalent result.
The typical case would be for overweight/obese people. While mobility and strength always help, it won't counter balance all the strain that the extra weight put on your body.
It will be more efficient to focus on getting lean first, and then focusing on strength/mobility. Although it is possible to do both (and maybe recommended ? But i am way out of my depth here).
a little regular exercise helps with weight loss, at least in anecdotal stuff. not that you can burn away a bad diet with exercise but the cardio and exertion help with the stress of dieting (lots of nice endorphins in a runners high!) and seem to aid metabolism a little.
doing a half hour at the gym 5 nights a week was like half of my weight loss routine basically.
I just have a lot of things I have to do in my program, and I have to do them twice a day, every day. I thought it might be better not to do it every day, and asked that, but was told no by two separate physios and my care team and so twice a day every day it remains. I also do in person physio and pilates on top of this three days a week.
It's obviously good for me (what kind of exercise isnt I suppose) but id probably feel better if I was getting out of it what I wanted, which i'm not and i've now been told I probably never will. But I cant stop because even though im not getting what I want, if I stop, in the long run, i'm probably even worse off. (Though, isnt everyone really.)
Id far prefer to move over to something like a bodyweight fitness program on a three day a week rotation, but I just cant do it physically until I undergo further evaluation and likely surgery, and would not have the energy to fit it in on top of my current physio regieme even outside of that.
I didnt mean "I wish it was only 30 minutes" in that I hate doing it, i'm just tired and it takes a lot of my time. I think at 30 minutes a day, it would just feel a whole lot easier to fit into my life, as opposed to building my life around it. I need a minimum now of about 1h30m before work, and after. Which means everything else in my life has to bend to accomodate that.
I do miss sessions occasionally, but I try not too because i'm only cheating myself, nobody else. I have a spreadsheet I use to keep myself honest.
Just jumping on this to say: I had chronic lower back and wrist pain for a long time. Had the whole ergonomic setup. Adjustable desk, Kinesis keyboard, vertical mice, etc. What fixed me was starting to squat. Took like 3 weeks of squatting and I haven't had back or wrist pain since (it's been 10+ years). Now I just use the standard (and very nonergonomic) Apple keyboard and mouse.
Huge +1 to this, but I would also add walking _at least_ 8000 steps per day. I still had some minor, nagging pain until I started walking more. Turns out humans are not meant to sit all day!
I can highly recommend a book called _Built to Move_ [0]. It tells you to do a lot of things that many people consider common sense, like walk every day, eat vegetables, sleep 8 hours, etc. However, it also explains _why_ to do these things pretty concisely. The most impactful argument it made to me was you can't counteract sitting for 12 hours a day with any amount of exercise. You have to sit less and move around more.
This is great advice! It took me 2 years and many doctors before I wound up at a physical therapist who figured out my nerve issue in 10 minutes. It was wild how they could move my shoulder and reproduce it. Now I’m working on strengthening stuff to make it better—and keeping the setup for a defense in depth against other issues
I imagine we'll be seeing more personalized setups as time progresses. Custom keyboards have been pretty feasible and affordable for a good while now, with things like QMK and even custom PCB designers. It can still be a bit fiddly, so it's mostly keyboard nutters such as myself who go down that rabbit hole.
Custom trackpads/mice/trackballs haven't gained as much traction, they're not quite as simple as keyboards, and maybe fewer people realise they could benefit from one. I think I might like an upright ergonomic mouse that's shaped to my hand, but then I'm so glued to my keyboard that it hardly seems worth the effort.
As a child I always wanted a chair with a split keyboard built into the armrests. Probalby inspired by Palpatine's fancy chair. Maybe I'll make that investment one day ...
How far are we with brain control interfaces though? I've seen some people playing games with off-the-shelf-ish non invasive eeg devices. Although there seemed to be some delay and crudeness to it.
If the signal to noise level is acceptable it has to be doable to improve it until you can type with it right?
>> I think I might like an upright ergonomic mouse that's shaped to my hand
I use a Logitech MX Vertical mouse for work, and actually love it for pretty much all non-gaming/pixel-perfect tasks. It feels like it naturally fits my hand in terms of shape and size, which adds up over 40h weeks.
Well, I don't the intention is to spend more time using the computer. When your work consists of using the computer, it is "rational" to do whatever is possible to minimize the undesirable effects and any harm. Now, if you are suggesting that OP should change his work (or his hobby) then your I don't think your comment is helpful. Regards.
OP, you have a comment there about mouse support in the Keyboardio. I've been using a Keyboardio since 2019 and haven't much tried the mouse support -- any advice? How did you set it up?
This feels familiar. I lug my Lenovo laptop, the Logitech ergonomic mouse, aluminium laptop stand and external Keychron keyboard (thinking about buying the Q10 with Alice layout), mostly to have convenient setup on the go, not primarily for ergonomics. Carrying all this stuff plus the extra other things in the daily backpack is certainly not ergonomic, however I think about it as training for some long hikes.
I also use the LG DualUp display at home, like it very much. Similarly, my home setup has the rain design mStand next to it.
Now, if the espresso machine could be also carried with the computer setup..
You may be interested in one of my current projects, I’ll post details when it’s done, but I stripped down a Crossland CC1 and am rebuilding it in an enclosure I can travel with.
Balls ever worked for me. Makes my hands cramped. Bar or rollermouse (rollermice?) has worked wonders for me though. Keeps the elbows tucked in, and makes both hands able to share the work load.
That being said with that amount of effort in making an ergonomic workstation, perhaps the first move should have been a dock and a proper screen than can be positioned correctly.
I love that the desk in the shots is a coffee bar. Thinking of how customized my coffee setups are it is a clear analogy for ergonomics. Adapting an activity to one's biology.
I'm really tempted to get another one for use with my laptop, but I'm currently using a left-handed Elecom trackball that is wireless - it's fine, but not the sheer luxury of a Ploopy.
Same reason for me I only buy laptops who's displays can open nearly 180 degrees (so no MacBooks): it allows for a wider choice of more ergonomic postures looking straight ahead instead of down on the desk.
Ironically for ergonomics, I need to look down. I significantly increased my daily pain by trying to follow standard ergonomic advice because I failed to take into account my unique needs.
I like the newest design! The hook and loop for the power adapter in particular really is a great idea for something that needs to be removed so frequently.
This does look very cool. But my advise for anyone suffering from pain to their arms, hands, backs, and any other body parts that usually hurt for people working on computer all day: Do modest, but regular mobility and strength exercises. While having an ergonomic (and cool looking at that) setup is important, it wont save you from muscle atrophy. A physical therapist might help you find the right kind of exercises for you. This is often not obvious, because the muscle you need to reinforce / train are often not actually the one hurting. And you need to do it regularly. But if you stick to it, the payoff is much better than any setup I ever had.
Full agree. My wife is a physical therapist (DPT, Northwestern) and the owner of a PT practice. I say this with some (very limited) authority, repeating things she has said to me:
1) Absolutely seek the advice of a good PT. It's not like going to a chiropractor where you'll get signed up for the "forever plan". You go, pay for a few visits or even just 1 and they will evaluate and give you things to do on your own. You're empowered directly to change your trajectory vs being reliant upon them week after week. In many states PTs have what is called "direct access" meaning they can see and treat you without any MD referrals being required. Also if you can afford it (HSA/FSA accounts are fine here), try to go to a "cash pay" PT that isn't burdened by death grip of our insurance system. You'll get better 1:1 attention and probably a much less overburdened PT.
2) Stand up and walk around at least a couple times an hour (I know, not practical for many of us) for 5 mins or so.
3) Sit on an exercise ball while at your desk and simultaneously think about your posture on a background thread. This will help you with core strength quite a bit over time. This is something most of us with desk jobs (and even most of us period) could use improvement on. She sees serious athletes who even have weak <random latin word> muscles hidden in spots they'd never think about.
4) Sometimes, like when it comes to pain in hands/wrists, you would want to seek out an occupational therapist (OT) instead of or in addition to a PT, who don't specialize in treating those types of dysfunctions.
Good luck getting/staying well!
disclaimer: This is not medical advice and I have zero formal training in any physical or medical science. Consult a professional. :)
> 2) Stand up and walk around at least a couple times an hour (I know, not practical for many of us) for 5 mins or so.
This is the easy bit. Just drink A LOT. Pick a drink, any drink. Caffeinated or not, carbonated or not. Whatever you like drinking and fits your diet. Keep drinking it at the appropriate temperature. You can geek out on the drinkware, I got a Stanley Stein, which will keep an iced beverage cool for 8 hours easily.
Nature will make sure you have to get up more than once during the day =)
Yup, can confirm. Had forearm pain for years (started in the wrists when I started using a laptop at school), did the whole round of ergonomic keyboards, joystick-mouse, etc. Eventually went to a personal trainer who had me try pushups, couldn't do them because of wrist pain. He then made me do deadlifts, which were tricky at first because my grip strength wasn't great, but after just a few sessions it improved markedly, and with it, my wrist/forearm pain. Long-term relief, too. I'm only now (seven, eight years later?) starting to feel it again.
I had a similar experience. Until I started exercising, I had very bad pain in my shoulders and neck from too much desk work. Every couple of weeks I would develop a "stiff neck". I also had pain in my wrists occasionally.
Lifting weights for one hour twice a week has alleviated my problems completely. I feel healthier than ever!
My theory is that because your muscles are a little bit tensed for a long period of time, there's not enough movement to move the blood and lactic acid around, and eventually it builds up and becomes painful.
So even just doing a little bit of mobility exercises with light weights helps a lot.
Are you lifting at the moment ?
> This is often not obvious, because the muscle you need to reinforce / train are often not actually the one hurting.
As someone who has done physical therapy for different issues, this is spot on. Lower back issues were actually due to weak hamstrings, and ankle issues due to weak calves.
Doing daily mobility and strength exercises as part of my mourning routine improved my health as a whole. A couple months in, and all random aches, pains, and soreness that i'd feel upon waking up or during the day were simply gone. And it only takes me 30 minutes a day. It's a pretty awesome alternative to doom scrolling.
> mourning routine
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger
/i
ahahahahh, good catch. small oopsie from a non-native speaker.
I wish it only took me 30 minutes a day.
I’ll bite. Why does it take longer for you?
Not the commenter, but AFAIK, people with some condition might have to put significantly more effort, at least at the beginning, to get equivalent result. The typical case would be for overweight/obese people. While mobility and strength always help, it won't counter balance all the strain that the extra weight put on your body. It will be more efficient to focus on getting lean first, and then focusing on strength/mobility. Although it is possible to do both (and maybe recommended ? But i am way out of my depth here).
a little regular exercise helps with weight loss, at least in anecdotal stuff. not that you can burn away a bad diet with exercise but the cardio and exertion help with the stress of dieting (lots of nice endorphins in a runners high!) and seem to aid metabolism a little.
doing a half hour at the gym 5 nights a week was like half of my weight loss routine basically.
I just have a lot of things I have to do in my program, and I have to do them twice a day, every day. I thought it might be better not to do it every day, and asked that, but was told no by two separate physios and my care team and so twice a day every day it remains. I also do in person physio and pilates on top of this three days a week.
It's obviously good for me (what kind of exercise isnt I suppose) but id probably feel better if I was getting out of it what I wanted, which i'm not and i've now been told I probably never will. But I cant stop because even though im not getting what I want, if I stop, in the long run, i'm probably even worse off. (Though, isnt everyone really.)
Id far prefer to move over to something like a bodyweight fitness program on a three day a week rotation, but I just cant do it physically until I undergo further evaluation and likely surgery, and would not have the energy to fit it in on top of my current physio regieme even outside of that.
I didnt mean "I wish it was only 30 minutes" in that I hate doing it, i'm just tired and it takes a lot of my time. I think at 30 minutes a day, it would just feel a whole lot easier to fit into my life, as opposed to building my life around it. I need a minimum now of about 1h30m before work, and after. Which means everything else in my life has to bend to accomodate that.
I do miss sessions occasionally, but I try not too because i'm only cheating myself, nobody else. I have a spreadsheet I use to keep myself honest.
Just jumping on this to say: I had chronic lower back and wrist pain for a long time. Had the whole ergonomic setup. Adjustable desk, Kinesis keyboard, vertical mice, etc. What fixed me was starting to squat. Took like 3 weeks of squatting and I haven't had back or wrist pain since (it's been 10+ years). Now I just use the standard (and very nonergonomic) Apple keyboard and mouse.
Huge +1 to this, but I would also add walking _at least_ 8000 steps per day. I still had some minor, nagging pain until I started walking more. Turns out humans are not meant to sit all day!
I can highly recommend a book called _Built to Move_ [0]. It tells you to do a lot of things that many people consider common sense, like walk every day, eat vegetables, sleep 8 hours, etc. However, it also explains _why_ to do these things pretty concisely. The most impactful argument it made to me was you can't counteract sitting for 12 hours a day with any amount of exercise. You have to sit less and move around more.
[0] https://thereadystate.com/built-to-move/
This is great advice! It took me 2 years and many doctors before I wound up at a physical therapist who figured out my nerve issue in 10 minutes. It was wild how they could move my shoulder and reproduce it. Now I’m working on strengthening stuff to make it better—and keeping the setup for a defense in depth against other issues
I imagine we'll be seeing more personalized setups as time progresses. Custom keyboards have been pretty feasible and affordable for a good while now, with things like QMK and even custom PCB designers. It can still be a bit fiddly, so it's mostly keyboard nutters such as myself who go down that rabbit hole.
Custom trackpads/mice/trackballs haven't gained as much traction, they're not quite as simple as keyboards, and maybe fewer people realise they could benefit from one. I think I might like an upright ergonomic mouse that's shaped to my hand, but then I'm so glued to my keyboard that it hardly seems worth the effort.
As a child I always wanted a chair with a split keyboard built into the armrests. Probalby inspired by Palpatine's fancy chair. Maybe I'll make that investment one day ...
I remember the chair mount being a post on the keyboard.io community forum. Somebody built that setup with the Model 01.
Looked amazing; IIRC the tricky part was how to wire it back to the computer when the chair was on wheels.
Glove80 is wireless and has a chair mount accessory
How far are we with brain control interfaces though? I've seen some people playing games with off-the-shelf-ish non invasive eeg devices. Although there seemed to be some delay and crudeness to it.
If the signal to noise level is acceptable it has to be doable to improve it until you can type with it right?
>> I think I might like an upright ergonomic mouse that's shaped to my hand
I use a Logitech MX Vertical mouse for work, and actually love it for pretty much all non-gaming/pixel-perfect tasks. It feels like it naturally fits my hand in terms of shape and size, which adds up over 40h weeks.
The coffee machine makes the whole setup even more ergonomic.
Their arms and neck hurt from computer use, so they develop elaborate setups to be able to use computers more.
I just hope the ingenuity will run out before their body reaches an unrecoverable state.
This is a bit unfair.
Their arms and neck hurt from using computers (specifically laptops) in their factory configuration.
They have reconfigured the physical layout to no longer cause pain when used.
It’s a “yes and” approach. I’ve been pursuing physical therapy and medical treatment the whole time as well.
Glad to hear that, and hope you can work it out.
Well, I don't the intention is to spend more time using the computer. When your work consists of using the computer, it is "rational" to do whatever is possible to minimize the undesirable effects and any harm. Now, if you are suggesting that OP should change his work (or his hobby) then your I don't think your comment is helpful. Regards.
The OP is a woman who uses she/her pronouns.
Well, sorry if that was offensive, I should have used "they" in case of doubt.
OP, you have a comment there about mouse support in the Keyboardio. I've been using a Keyboardio since 2019 and haven't much tried the mouse support -- any advice? How did you set it up?
This feels familiar. I lug my Lenovo laptop, the Logitech ergonomic mouse, aluminium laptop stand and external Keychron keyboard (thinking about buying the Q10 with Alice layout), mostly to have convenient setup on the go, not primarily for ergonomics. Carrying all this stuff plus the extra other things in the daily backpack is certainly not ergonomic, however I think about it as training for some long hikes.
I also use the LG DualUp display at home, like it very much. Similarly, my home setup has the rain design mStand next to it.
Now, if the espresso machine could be also carried with the computer setup..
The LG DualUp is such a gem!
You may be interested in one of my current projects, I’ll post details when it’s done, but I stripped down a Crossland CC1 and am rebuilding it in an enclosure I can travel with.
I think we’d get along.
Balls ever worked for me. Makes my hands cramped. Bar or rollermouse (rollermice?) has worked wonders for me though. Keeps the elbows tucked in, and makes both hands able to share the work load.
That being said with that amount of effort in making an ergonomic workstation, perhaps the first move should have been a dock and a proper screen than can be positioned correctly.
I love that the desk in the shots is a coffee bar. Thinking of how customized my coffee setups are it is a clear analogy for ergonomics. Adapting an activity to one's biology.
I’m a sucker for aesthetics, and that is my most aesthetic spot for photo shoots
Bonus Framework Laptop spotting :)
A Ploopy trackball - they're the best although I do kind of want a wireless one as well.
The bearings are sooooo satisfying. I would also love to have a wireless one.
I'm really tempted to get another one for use with my laptop, but I'm currently using a left-handed Elecom trackball that is wireless - it's fine, but not the sheer luxury of a Ploopy.
ooh that's a good idea. I have wanted something wireless to make it more convenient to do supine computing, so that could be just the ticket.
and cheers to another lefty mouse user!
I feel like an imposter as I'm right handed, but taught myself to use a mouse/trackball left handed for better ergonomics.
Same reason for me I only buy laptops who's displays can open nearly 180 degrees (so no MacBooks): it allows for a wider choice of more ergonomic postures looking straight ahead instead of down on the desk.
Ironically for ergonomics, I need to look down. I significantly increased my daily pain by trying to follow standard ergonomic advice because I failed to take into account my unique needs.
I like the newest design! The hook and loop for the power adapter in particular really is a great idea for something that needs to be removed so frequently.
A real-life example of necessity is the mother of invention as well as innovation.
I don't think the solution is to move your body less.
Having multiple desks and desk heights and possibly multiple keyboards is probably what is needed. Not to mention stretching and strengthening.
I'd recommend OP go to physical therapy.
that's really fuckin cool!