I find odd this was flagged. To me what this guy tried to do was a fine example of hacking, although not of an electronic device in the digital realm, but of the legal system in the analog world.
Ha, a friend of mine in Austria did the same thing to avoid the draft. They check on you regularly though if you're fit for service, so it takes a man of focus, commitment and sheer fucking will to being morbidly obese till 35 to avoid the draft. No jail time for him though.
Can't they simply refuse on moral/ethical grounds? Like, we had "Service Civique" in France till the 2000-something for those who refused the draft. I spent one year washing the floors of a penitentiary instead and honestly I don't regret it at all.
>Like, we had "Service Civique" in France till the 2000-something for those who refused the draft.
France doesn't border a totalitarian nuclear power though. Your civil liberties are determined by your place in the geopolitical lottery, not by what your wishes are. Once you border an aggressive and dangerous state, then your (male) body becomes the government's property. Unfortunately.
Not the government's property. It's more that you're a citizen like in a polis.
An element of citizenship is mutual aid and participation in the military and political life of the state. Of course, if you're excluded from part of this, then we do end up in the situation you describe-- maybe doing this properly even requires direct democracy.
Technically, I guess one or more of France's overseas territories are near the maritime zones of nuclear-armed countries, but considering direct land or maritime borders, you're right.
Technically you're right, I forgot France is stil running a colonial empire on the side with territories around the world for force projection and tax dodging. That's why France has the foreign legion though. They get cannon fodder and give them citizenship in return.
Maybe it's borderline not "Western", but Turkey famously haven't gotten to allow people to refuse service.
> In 2021 Europe was not a safe place for many conscientious objectors in several countries who faced prosecution, arrests, trials by military courts, imprisonments, fines, intimidation, attacks, death threats, and discrimination. These countries include Turkey (the only CoE Member State who has not yet recognised the right to conscientious objection)
I think I remember talking with some Greek person at some point as well, where "conscientious objection" theoretically exists, but the alternative ends up longer than the military service + basically feels like a punishment, rather than an alternative.
By "Western" I think I meant "stereotypical Western and Northern European"
> I think I remember talking with some Greek person at some point as well, where "conscientious objection" theoretically exists, but the alternative ends up longer than the military service + basically feels like a punishment, rather than an alternative.
Alternatively they can work in care facilities (elderly care, psychiatric hospitals, etc…). I dont have the details but i know a few people who did this
I don't understand how you can characterize this as dictatorship. If anything, it's the very normal realization of the representational democracy: The people have voted for representatives, that themselves voted on laws to force everyone to serve, or go to jail.
If the people wish to repeal that law, then they should vote for representatives that will repeal this.
If my fellow citizens are voting to allow the government to enslave me and force me to attack whoever they want me to, then every moment of my life has become dictated to me. I'm a victim of dictatorial democracy and they become indistinguishable. Grass roots tyranny is still tyrannical. I don't have much incentive to fight in order to be dictated to from the bottom up instead of the top down.
For me what seems deeply unethical is that some crooked old politicians/military are able to force young people to kill each other in wars the later had no part in starting.
> For me what seems deeply unethical is that some crooked old politicians/military are able to force young people to kill each other in wars the later had no part in starting.
In countries where drafts are thing, they are a part of the social contract.
Rejecting the social contract means rejecting the primacy of that society.
Furthermore, most countries that retain a draft have active security threats or are in frozen conflicts that can re-ignite at a moment's notice.
By dodging the draft you are essentially freeloading off of the rest of society who did get drafted.
>By dodging the draft you are essentially freeloading off of the rest of society who did get drafted.
The problem I have is with selective enforcement of such social contracts.
In case of the conflict, none of the rich or important people and their kids will be on the front line or even take part in the draft, they'll be chilling in US, UK, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, etc, and yet I and every other Joe Schmoe have to go and die or suffer to fulfil my so called "social contract"? They can eat shit. Go to any fancy town in Europe and it's full of the Russian and Ukrainian elites living the good life while the poor people in their countries suffer.
Until I see the rich people dying in the trenches with the poor, the social contract is a scam and I'll do everything in my power to avoid it since that's what the rich and powerful have always done as that's how they've become rich and powerful in the first place, they never followed the heard.
Social contracts are for gullible people to get scammed easier by the ruling class.
> SK should consider fielding a volunteer force from their ranks to fight on behalf of the Ukrainians in order to do the same
Foreign military deployments are very politically unpopular in South Korea.
Memories of SK's involvement in the Vietnam War and the extreme unpopularity of SK's tiny deployment in Iraq make any sort of "boots on the ground" view politically untenable.
Furthermore, South Korea can better contribute (and is) by providing material, intelligence, and funding.
It was pretty amusing to see the fake news saying we'll deploy spread all over the place in the western media. And then the disappointment and hate we got once they discovered they've been lied to.
I find odd this was flagged. To me what this guy tried to do was a fine example of hacking, although not of an electronic device in the digital realm, but of the legal system in the analog world.
Ha, a friend of mine in Austria did the same thing to avoid the draft. They check on you regularly though if you're fit for service, so it takes a man of focus, commitment and sheer fucking will to being morbidly obese till 35 to avoid the draft. No jail time for him though.
Can't they simply refuse on moral/ethical grounds? Like, we had "Service Civique" in France till the 2000-something for those who refused the draft. I spent one year washing the floors of a penitentiary instead and honestly I don't regret it at all.
>Like, we had "Service Civique" in France till the 2000-something for those who refused the draft.
France doesn't border a totalitarian nuclear power though. Your civil liberties are determined by your place in the geopolitical lottery, not by what your wishes are. Once you border an aggressive and dangerous state, then your (male) body becomes the government's property. Unfortunately.
Not the government's property. It's more that you're a citizen like in a polis.
An element of citizenship is mutual aid and participation in the military and political life of the state. Of course, if you're excluded from part of this, then we do end up in the situation you describe-- maybe doing this properly even requires direct democracy.
Technically, I guess one or more of France's overseas territories are near the maritime zones of nuclear-armed countries, but considering direct land or maritime borders, you're right.
Technically you're right, I forgot France is stil running a colonial empire on the side with territories around the world for force projection and tax dodging. That's why France has the foreign legion though. They get cannon fodder and give them citizenship in return.
> Can't they simply refuse on moral/ethical grounds
Nope. That's a Western thing.
Conscientious objectors are allowed, but then you must work in a jail.
Maybe it's borderline not "Western", but Turkey famously haven't gotten to allow people to refuse service.
> In 2021 Europe was not a safe place for many conscientious objectors in several countries who faced prosecution, arrests, trials by military courts, imprisonments, fines, intimidation, attacks, death threats, and discrimination. These countries include Turkey (the only CoE Member State who has not yet recognised the right to conscientious objection)
https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/2022-05/EBCO-HRC50...
I think I remember talking with some Greek person at some point as well, where "conscientious objection" theoretically exists, but the alternative ends up longer than the military service + basically feels like a punishment, rather than an alternative.
By "Western" I think I meant "stereotypical Western and Northern European"
> I think I remember talking with some Greek person at some point as well, where "conscientious objection" theoretically exists, but the alternative ends up longer than the military service + basically feels like a punishment, rather than an alternative.
Same in Israel and South Korea
Alternatively they can work in care facilities (elderly care, psychiatric hospitals, etc…). I dont have the details but i know a few people who did this
It is amazing how deep the extent of dictatorship go in South Korea but it is completely shadowed by the North Korea
I don't understand how you can characterize this as dictatorship. If anything, it's the very normal realization of the representational democracy: The people have voted for representatives, that themselves voted on laws to force everyone to serve, or go to jail.
If the people wish to repeal that law, then they should vote for representatives that will repeal this.
If my fellow citizens are voting to allow the government to enslave me and force me to attack whoever they want me to, then every moment of my life has become dictated to me. I'm a victim of dictatorial democracy and they become indistinguishable. Grass roots tyranny is still tyrannical. I don't have much incentive to fight in order to be dictated to from the bottom up instead of the top down.
Imperfect democracies exist. How do you change things when none of the candidates you can vote for are representing for what you want?
> the extent of dictatorship
Draft Dodging is unethical.
A draft is a core part of the social contract in plenty of countries, and those who try to evade it are viewed as "freeloading" by the majority.
Try draft dodging in Singapore, Israel, or Ukraine as well and see what happens.
> Draft Dodging is unethical.
For me what seems deeply unethical is that some crooked old politicians/military are able to force young people to kill each other in wars the later had no part in starting.
> For me what seems deeply unethical is that some crooked old politicians/military are able to force young people to kill each other in wars the later had no part in starting.
In countries where drafts are thing, they are a part of the social contract.
Rejecting the social contract means rejecting the primacy of that society.
Furthermore, most countries that retain a draft have active security threats or are in frozen conflicts that can re-ignite at a moment's notice.
By dodging the draft you are essentially freeloading off of the rest of society who did get drafted.
>By dodging the draft you are essentially freeloading off of the rest of society who did get drafted.
The problem I have is with selective enforcement of such social contracts.
In case of the conflict, none of the rich or important people and their kids will be on the front line or even take part in the draft, they'll be chilling in US, UK, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, etc, and yet I and every other Joe Schmoe have to go and die or suffer to fulfil my so called "social contract"? They can eat shit. Go to any fancy town in Europe and it's full of the Russian and Ukrainian elites living the good life while the poor people in their countries suffer.
Until I see the rich people dying in the trenches with the poor, the social contract is a scam and I'll do everything in my power to avoid it since that's what the rich and powerful have always done as that's how they've become rich and powerful in the first place, they never followed the heard.
Social contracts are for gullible people to get scammed easier by the ruling class.
>Try draft dodging in Singapore, Israel, or Ukraine as well and see what happens.
You chill out in Western Europe as a refugee till everything blows over. At least for those from Ukraine.
[flagged]
> SK should consider fielding a volunteer force from their ranks to fight on behalf of the Ukrainians in order to do the same
Foreign military deployments are very politically unpopular in South Korea.
Memories of SK's involvement in the Vietnam War and the extreme unpopularity of SK's tiny deployment in Iraq make any sort of "boots on the ground" view politically untenable.
Furthermore, South Korea can better contribute (and is) by providing material, intelligence, and funding.
Lol no thanks.
It was pretty amusing to see the fake news saying we'll deploy spread all over the place in the western media. And then the disappointment and hate we got once they discovered they've been lied to.