77 comments

  • eru 4 hours ago

    > It's not just the size of Operation Gutt that is striking to the modern eye. It's also the oddity of the tool being used. Today, we control inflation with changes in interest rates, not changes in the quantity of money. To soften the effect of the global COVID monetary overhang, for instance, central banks in the U.S., Canada, and Europe began to raise rates in 2022 from around 0% to 4-5% in 2024.

    It's a bit more interesting than 'the central bank sets interest rates'.

    Simplified: the central bank decide on an interest rate that they want to see. By itself that decision doesn't do anything.

    What happens next is that they buy and sell government bonds in the open market. The interest rate can be seen as the inverse of the price of bonds.

    If the central bank wants to see a lower interest rate, they buy bonds with freshly printed money to drive up their prices, ie drive down the interest rate.

    If the central banks wants to increase the prevailing interest rate, they sell government bonds from their inventory and essentially destroy they money they receive in return.

    So even when the language of modern central banking talks about interest rates, they still change the quantity of money to implement that.

    (This is all simplified, especially with the interest on excess reserves that was popular with the Fed for a while. And there's also repos and reverse repos etc.)

    • Polygator 3 hours ago

      For an international perspective: buying and selling government bonds is far from an universal mechanism for interest rate control (AFAIK when discussing central banks the US is almost always a special case)

      For instance the Canadian, UK and European central banks provide systems for interbank short-term loans. It is almost entirely through these systems that they set their target rate.

      For Canada the BoC doesn't do any open market operations to reach target interest rate (so almost only repos and reverse repos). Their target rate is in fact called the "target overnight rate" and only concerns overnight lending between Canadian financial institutions.

      • eru an hour ago

        For the interested https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbank_lending_market#Monet... has more on it.

        As far as I understand, the central banks intervene in this market by offering to loan or borrow above or below otherwise prevailing market rates. This has the effect of adding money to the system (or removing it). So that's pretty much the same mechanism as what I described.

        They use an intermediate proxy like the 'target overnight rate' to help them decide how much money to add or remove to the system: exactly as much as needed to bring the market interest rate in line with their intermediate proxy.

    • neilwilson 3 hours ago

      Interest on reserves is very much still in place[0]. Open Market Operations haven't been a thing since shortly after the 2008 Financial Crisis.

      https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/reserve-balanc...

    • IAmGraydon 2 hours ago

      Ahh…no. The Fed sets the interest rate directly. What you are talking about is yields on treasury bonds, which are manipulated via bond buying to force money into assets by artificially dropping the yield of those bonds, thus creating a more attractive investment in the stocks, assets, etc.

      • eru an hour ago

        I described Open Market Operations, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_market_operation

        > The Fed sets the interest rate directly.

        So which interest rate does the Fed set directly, and how does that setting have any effect on the economy?

        (I know they have interest on excess reserves. I already accounted for those in my original comment. I know, they are annoying and misguided. I was mostly talking about the system they used before, ie up until about 2008.)

        • IAmGraydon 8 minutes ago

          The Fed directly sets the Overnight Rate, also known as the Federal Funds Rate. It's the rate at which banks can borrow from one another overnight to satisfy reserve requirements. This rate indirectly affects the interest rate of all other lending instruments because the higher cost of overnight bank to bank lending is passed on to the customers in the form of higher loan rates, credit card rates, mortgage rates, etc.

          The Open Market Operations you described (completely different from the Overnight Rate) are a form of stimulus. Because money always seeks higher risk-adjusted returns, the Fed will buy treasuries, which drives down their yield. This makes them an unattractive investment, so the money goes where it can get a better risk-adjusted return. That's usually in the market. So by adjusting treasury note yields, they can stimulate the economy. Furthermore, those treasury bonds are bought with printed money, so this is effectively a way to inject massive amounts (trillions of dollars) of printed money directly into the economy. It's pretty crazy when you think about the power that these policies have.

    • hgomersall 3 hours ago

      We don't control inflation with interest rates; we do some economic theatre with interest rates that some people believe controls inflation in a predictable way.

      • pjc50 3 hours ago

        The evidence is very strong that we do actually control it, because in many countries you can see in the historical data when central bank targeting was introduced that the inflation rate drops fairly rapidly into the target band.

        It's not a perfect control system because the cost is "NAIRU": non accelerating rate of unemployment. That is, economic growth and wage growth are constrained to avoid a wage-price spiral. And sometimes you get a shock from outside the system.

        • hgomersall 3 hours ago

          Please do show this very strong evidence that the effect is any more than the supply chains sorting themselves out. Even some within the CBs are doubting the causality.

          Japan had the lowest inflation of any major economy post COVID, and yet persisted with essentially a ZIRP. There's a good argument that in our high reserves world, interest is actually inflationary.

          • pjc50 2 hours ago

            UK historical investigation: https://www.elibrary.imf.org/display/book/9781557758897/ch07... - written in 2000, but you can see on this graph https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/gbr/uni... how flat it is from 1992 to 2020. That's a very good record for any piece of policy. Inflation control works for controlling business cycle inflation. However, it's not perfect and the COVID+war shock resulted in unavoidable inflation.

            It's a ""plant"" in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_theory sense.

            (my original comment: "you can see in the historical data when central bank targeting was introduced that the inflation rate drops fairly rapidly into the target band".

            The US graph is similar https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/usa/uni... - although the adoption of inflation targeting wasn't fully formalized, it was definitely used in setting interest rates from the 90s.

            • hgomersall 43 minutes ago

              Now show the UK plot for the 2010s. Also, show the one for Japan. It's easy to cherry pick data to show whatever you want. It doesn't constitute strong data for a casual and reliable link between interest rates and inflation.

              • fernmyth 6 minutes ago

                Plot the days when your air conditioner is on with the temperature of your room. It will many concrete examples and a long-term correlation showing that actually, the air conditioner is associated with the temperature going _up_.

                All feedback/control systems are like that.

          • gruez an hour ago

            >There's a good argument that in our high reserves world, interest is actually inflationary.

            How's that working out with Turkey?

      • dennis_jeeves2 an hour ago

        Correct, it's mostly theater , and people nerding out on the numbers. The true measure of inflation is this: For a single day one works (calculated over a lifetime), how many days can one survive without working which will pay off all of one's bills. The lower this figure, higher is the inflation.

        • gruez an hour ago

          >The true measure of inflation is this: For a single day one works (calculated over a lifetime), how many days can one survive without working which will pay off all of one's bills.

          This rapidly falls apart when you try to actually calculate it. Whose income do you use? Is inflation lower for doctors than burger flippers? What do you use as the retirement age? Does inflation go down if the retirement age is raised? What counts as "survive"? Does that mean the price of smartphones don't count toward inflation because you can theoretically survive without them?

        • eru an hour ago

          Huh? What does this have to do with inflation at all?

  • Carrentt 4 hours ago

    Fascinating piece of financial history I hadn't heard about. Imagine your government telling you to literally take scissors to your money, it's like a weird mix between arts & crafts hour and monetary policy. Though I suppose we're already halfway there with our modern central banks, just without the satisfying snip-snip sounds.

    The Finnish experiment failing because people just deposited their cash in banks first is a classic example of Goodhart's Law in action. Or as I like to call it, "If you tell people you're going to cut their money in half, they'll find a way to keep it whole."

    What's really interesting is Belgium's more successful approach, they went full scorched earth on 2/3 of their money supply and somehow managed to pull off an economic miracle. Makes our current inflation-fighting tools look rather tame in comparison. "Sorry, best we can do is nudge interest rates up a quarter point at a time.

    • guenthert 3 hours ago

      Well, as fascinating as your government telling you to surrender all gold you might hold [1].

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Reserve_Act

      • dr_dshiv 3 hours ago

        “By 1975, Americans could again freely own and trade gold.”

        Woah.

    • eru 4 hours ago

      Turkey dropped six zeroes off their currency in the 2000s.

      Technically, you could describe that as cutting 999,9999/1,000,000 of their money supply. (Especially if they had done a funny dance like the Finnish, where you would use some scissors to only keep the tiny top left corner of your old notes, and can exchange that for new ones.)

      In practice, people saw the Turkish currency reform as merely a cosmetic change, not an actually reduction in the money supply.

      See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revaluation_of_the_Turkish_lir...

      • PrismCrystal 13 minutes ago

        Romania dropped several zeros in 2005, so 1,000,000 became 100. As someone who was around at that time, I still tend to think of prices in the old system, which makes me look ridiculous to younger people and even most of my same-age peers.

        Albania dropped a single zero way back in the mid-20th century, and yet even generations born long after that still think of prices in the old system. The first time I went to Albania, I was paranoid and made a scene in shops, thinking every shopkeeper was trying to rip me, a foreigner, off by quoting a price an order of magnitude higher. My face was red when someone finally explained how the country works.

      • pjc50 3 hours ago

        This is one of those measures that hyperinflation countries have to adopt for sanity, re-numbering the money.

        The surprising case that worked is the Brazilian "Real": by renaming the currency as well as switching it to semi-controlled exchange rates, inflation was drastically reduced. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plano_Real

        > Combined with all previous currency changes in the country's history, this reform made the new real equal to 2.75 × 1018 (2.75 quintillion) of Brazil's original réis.

        (!)

      • Sharlin 3 hours ago

        Would've been funny if you had been expected to literally cut out six zeroes from the notes.

        In 1963 Finland also ended up shifting markka to the right by two, so that the old markka became the new penni (1/100 markka).

  • pjc50 4 hours ago

    Mentioning the war on COVID but not the actual war between Russia and Ukraine that caused a huge spike in European energy prices is a big omission, since that caused a lot of global inflation.

    • gregman1 4 hours ago

      Extreme hike in energy prices was about four months before the war began. It’s when EU decided to abandon long term gas contracts and turned to spot prices (~11.2021). The war started in 02.2022.

      • ArnoVW 4 hours ago

        From your perspective the war started in 2022.

        In reality that phase of the war started before. Russia did not improvise this war. They started disrupting the supply in 2021 to ensure that Europe would not fill their strategic reserves / winter storage during the summer, thus insuring maximum leverage when they needed it. This is well documented [1]

        Note that this is just talking about this phase of the war. Hostilities started in 2014 when parts of Ukraine "suddenly self-liberated" themselves. Helped by mysterious soldiers in professional but unmarked uniforms.

        [1] https://www.banque-france.fr/en/publications-and-statistics/...

      • eru 4 hours ago

        Well, the full scale portion of the war started in February 2022.

        But you are right otherwise.

        • casenmgreen 2 hours ago

          Yes. I was surprised to find out that Russia had been conducted sabotage operations against UA artillery ammunitions dumps for many years prior to full scale invasion, and the Ukrainians had already lost the majority of their artillery ammunition reserves this way by the time invasion began.

          • Yawrehto 2 hours ago

            And they conquered Crimea in 2014--partially, if I remember right, to get a port that doesn't freeze over in the winter, something they have wanted for literally hundreds of years.

    • Cumpiler69 3 hours ago

      False. Inflation was mainly caused by the central banks(especially the US FED but also the ECB who followed suit) devalued the currency by over-issuing it during the pandemic, not due to the post pandemic high energy prices which are not that high when you adjust for the crazy Inflation the excessive money printing generated.

      In short, they barrowed money in your name with you as a guarantor and now you're paying for it, it's that simple.

      The war caused by Russia is just a convenient scapegoat that's easier to sell to the financially illiterate population to deflect the blame. Keep in mind most voters don't understand basic economics and how currency supply affects inflation, but they do understand "Russia dropping bombs = bad".

      When 80% of the entire world supply of USD (the world reserve currency that the EU also has to use) was printed during the pandemic, how can anyone say that Russia's war caused the inflation? Do people not know arithmetic anymore?

      https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M1SL

      • 1986 2 hours ago

        Money supply increased significantly in 2020 for sure but that's NOT what you're seeing in the M1 graph. M1 was revised to include savings accounts at the same time and this is the major source of the discontinuity:

        https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2021/05/savings-are-now-more...

        M2 captures the pandemic influx better and is significantly less dramatic: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/WM2NS

      • riffraff 3 hours ago

        Do you think that since M1 is down 13% since peak we should be seeing deflation right now, or does M1 growth only impact inflation one way?

      • Zanfa 3 hours ago

        It would be stupid to discount the effect that artificially limiting energy exports and using it for blackmail before and during the full-blown Russian invasion is naive. IIRC my nat gas prices went up like 10x compared to the previous year.

      • _heimdall 3 hours ago

        While I would also lean towards blaming the US Fed, how can you be so confident in precisely what caused inflation?

        One of my big issues with economics as a "science" is that they try to boil down massively complex systems into a handful of numbers. When it comes to global economics and geopolitics the system is even more complex. How would we ever be able to say any particular time of inflation was causes by exclusively, or primarily, any one factor?

        At best looking at historic data and seeing graphs that move together show correlation, they will never show causation.

      • dennis_jeeves2 an hour ago

        >Do people not know arithmetic anymore?

        They never knew it.

      • ttyprintk 3 hours ago

        The European Central Bank said it’s due to energy.

        • johngladtj 3 hours ago

          The people who caused the problem say they weren't responsible for the problem.

          Do you see the issue here?

        • Cumpiler69 3 hours ago

          Of course they'd say that. Did you expect them to just say "yeah, we fucked you over by devaluing the currency causing your wages to be worthless"?. Don't be naive please and look into how much currency was issued during the pandemic and see for yourself.

      • sofixa 3 hours ago

        Utter nonsense, and I say this as nicely as I can.

        Check the price of Russian gas before and after the invasion, and the resulting price of electricity: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

        Combine with the fact that Russia and Ukraine are some of the biggest exporters of many critical raw materials, like importantly, foodstuffs (wheat, sunflower oil, etc), and steel, aluminium, oil, gas. Hell, there was a crisis in availability of mustard and snails in France due to the invasion of Ukraine (and on the mustard, a series of bad harvests in Canada which further complicated things).

        We can even clearly see it in the inflation charts, first there was growth in energy inflation towards the end of 2021 (as things were ramping back up from Covid), then a big spike in 2022 due to Russia's invasion, and then over 2022-2023, related spike in other sectors: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

        To pretend none of this had no impact whatsoever is wilful ignorance.

        • Cumpiler69 3 hours ago

          Bruh, 80% of all USD in existence was issued during the pandemic alone. How the hell can you tell me with a straight face that that didn't cause the inflation? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

          https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M1SL

          • _hl_ 3 hours ago

            Read the notes in the link you posted. I don’t think it says what you think it says.

            In May 2020, the definition of M1 (monetary supply in “cash”) was changed to include savings deposits. They changed this not due to some conspiracy, but because savings accounts were deregulated to remove withdrawal limits, effectively rendering them cash-equivalent, and thus necessary to include in M1 metrics.

            I.e. the 80% spike has nothing to do with money being printed.

          • sofixa 3 hours ago

            Bad faith argument again, or at least terrible tunnel vision.

            So what? In the EU a lot of that money went into the Recovery fund, which released the funds in multiple steps (only the first one was in 2021), and a lot of it is still remaining in the fund.

            How do you explain the massive inflation in the EU then?

            And are you seriously that centred on "money printing" that you cannot imagine gas and oil prices raising multiple times, and the disappearance of multiple critical raw material suppliers, had _no impact whatsoever_?

            • weberer 2 hours ago

              >Bad faith argument again

              Stop saying this whenever somebody disagrees with you. That's not what that term means at all.

    • ttyprintk 3 hours ago

      Especially since the Finnish experience is the only direct comparison to Ukraine today, where both their army and government are fighting Russia.

  • teractiveodular 4 hours ago

    A recent similar example was the Indian move in 2016 to demonetize the ₹500 and ₹1,000 notes with very little notice, which is in retrospect widely viewed to have been a disaster.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Indian_banknote_demonetis...

    • guenthert 3 hours ago

      There were multiple motives for that move, notably however not among those an attempt to curb inflation.

    • theshrike79 an hour ago

      IIRC the reasoning was that only criminals have large amounts of valuable notes and by demonetising them they'd hit the criminals where it hurts.

      But it turns out that tons of people in rural India had their life savings under mattresses in large denomination bills...

  • nabla9 2 hours ago

    >Today, we control inflation with changes in interest rates, not changes in the quantity of money.

    That's not full truth. In the last 20 yeas central banks do their big and sudden moves using "Open Market Operations". They buy or sell money like assets in market and effectively increase or limit the quantity of money.

    • atq2119 2 hours ago

      Open market operations are the mechanism by which the interest rate is controlled.

      Basically, the central bank sets an interest rate target and then performs open market operations until the interest rate matches the target.

      That obviously affects the quantity, but the point is that the target is the interest rate. The quantity just ends up being whatever happens to be necessary to hit the interest rate.

      • nabla9 2 hours ago

        The target is inflation in both.

        When you reduce the volume of assets available, or the price renting the asset, you increase it's value. In this case the asset is money.

        Market interest rate is a signal how effective the action is long before inflation statistics is available.

  • readyplayernull 2 hours ago
    • openrisk 2 hours ago

      > To ensure that interest expense falls toward zero over time, Congress could instruct the U.S. Treasury to stop issuing anything with duration beyond a 3-mo T-bill. Voilà! It wouldn’t just save $2 trillion, it would save tens of trillions of dollars over time.

      umm, not sure if her recipe is meant as a joke (I mean the world is rapidly turning into a bad joke anyway so people getting facetious might be a defense mechanism) but eliminating risk-free money for anything beyond 3 months seems like very... short-termist? No idea what kind of volatility that would do to the broader financial / economic system (including e.g. mortgage finance) but somehow it doesn't sound good.

  • dathinab 3 hours ago

    > To our modern sensibilities, this is a wildly invasive policy.

    is it? not really

    cutting the "value" of money in half always had been a important emergency tool countries had and sometimes used

    and "moving" half of the value into a found which even pays out some years later is tbh. quite a fair way to do it (instead of just literally halving the money value permanently)

    • flanked-evergl 3 hours ago

      Fixing inflation is simple, people keep voting for it to not be fixed, so the inflation remains and gets worse.

  • neilwilson 3 hours ago

    This is all very interesting historically.

    However the rise of repo markets has rendered the money=medium of exchange, bond=store of value belief pretty much redundant. Rehypothecation more so.

    Banks are liquidity providers. If they think they can make a turn they'll discount any asset into money for you.

  • j4nitor 4 hours ago
  • dr_dshiv 3 hours ago

    Without getting political, please, does anyone have a good argument for the expected inflationary pressures of the next year or two? Tariffs will make prices go up, investment in infrastructure will make prices go up… but on the other hand, AI & robotics seems to be a deflationary pressure… where does one go for scenario analysis of the next year or two?

    This article scared me a bit with the notion of banks implementing “quantitative freezing.”

    • pjc50 3 hours ago

      > Without getting political

      > inflationary pressures of the next year

      You can't really separate these two. If central bank targeting is left alone and the policies implemented aren't too disruptive (i.e. not the wild claims of the campaign), then it won't move much. If some of the wilder claims are implemented, all bets are off.

  • Yawrehto an hour ago

    I wonder what the cleansing element of it in Finland was, given that they voted to join the Axis.

  • thaumasiotes 5 hours ago

    Somehow this author has come to the conclusion that price controls are the "solution" to inflation.

    This is a fundamental misunderstanding of why inflation is viewed as bad.

    • gostsamo 4 hours ago

      The article talks about history of alternatives to the interest rates, mainly controlling the currency supply and how it might be implemented in the future. How you discovered price control as the solution in there is still a mystery to me.

      • shigawire 4 hours ago

        I think they are considering the last part of the article to be "price controls". If the government prevents people from buying certain goods by selectivity freezing certain purchases I'm not sure I'd call that a price controls -- more like a prohibition.

        But I could see how this could be done similarly more like a price control. If the control was this granular, then maybe car purchases could be limited to $30,000 instead of blocked fully. This is effectively a price control.

        Also - the author notes in the comments the post is a prognostication, not endorsement.

        That said, much like the original Finnish plan, I have no idea how you'd implement this without massive loopholes. I'd imagine even if there were merits to the policy it would fail on account of the difficulty in implementation.

        I wonder if it is more reasonable if there was equally a carrot to go with the stick - something analogous to the bond portion of the Finish approach.

        • pjc50 4 hours ago

          In this context, all European countries including Finland were subject to rationing during the war; the question is about how to phase out both rationing and price controls without having a huge discontinuity at that moment.

          • eru 4 hours ago

            Or you can just accept the discontinuity, because sometimes the cures are worse than the disease.

      • thaumasiotes 4 hours ago

        Yes, the solution he advocates is "we freeze your assets, allot you a certain basket of consumer goods, and take what we consider the appropriate price out of your frozen assets".

        If you'd rather describe that as "communism" than "price controls", feel free.

        The theme of the whole piece is that, if you don't allow people to pay more for things, then the price of those things won't rise, and that this is some sort of policy victory. It's a very stupid viewpoint; seeing prices fail to rise because you redenominated the currency means nothing. Seeing prices fail to rise because you prohibit that, on the other hand, doesn't mean nothing - instead, it means your economy is collapsing.

        • Lvl999Noob 3 hours ago

          The post is not a study or a solution or a suggestion or anything of the sort. The author clarified in the last portion that it is a prediction. Someone predicting the bad consequences of the current direction is not advocating for that direction.

        • gostsamo 3 hours ago

          price control would be if they forbid some goods to be paid beyond certain price where the goal is to regulate the distribution of those goods. Currency supply control is a general policy targeted at the total of goods one can pay for in order to maintain the overall economic activity. This is the difference between heating certain rooms in the house and causing global warming.

  • labster 3 hours ago

    I wonder if anyone left his uncut so he could show it off later? It would certainly be more attractive to numismatics later on.

  • mock-possum 4 hours ago

    The convenience of cutting paper money in half is a really anachronistic element of this tale - I’ve got a fair amount of money saved up, and approximately none of it exists as paper, so much as it exists ‘on paper’ - that is, as figures marked in a bank’s digital ledger, somewhere in a server farm.

    How would an effort like this be handled today?

    … a new crypto currency?

    • jsnell 4 hours ago

      The tricky part isn't money on a digital ledger. That's easy enough to handle with e.g. a one-off deposit tax (IIRC used as recently as the Euro crisis). There's no operational problem here, it just needs to be legislated to happen. Executing the operation properly might take a while (it's not something they'd have a process for), but banks must already have in place systems for e.g. freezing assets which could be used to buy time.

      Bonds can just have a haircut on their nominal value, which is pretty much standard operation procedure during a financial bailout.

      The real problem is deposits in foreign banks in foreign currencies. In the modern world by the time a country would be looking into this kind of a measure, a lot of the capital will have already fled. In this case the blocker is jurisdiction / sovereignty, not any kind of technical limitation.

      • eru 4 hours ago

        > The real problem is deposits in foreign banks in foreign currencies.

        Well, money abroad doesn't contribute to local inflation, does it?

        • jsnell 2 hours ago

          I took the question to be on the logistics of executing this kind of operation with digital ledgers, not on when/whether those operations make sense.

          Confiscating foreign assets would do little[0] to reduce inflation. But it's the same for local assets. Obviously just chopping off a zero from every note and bank balance doesn't actually reduce inflation, unless accompanied by some other structural changes.

          [0] I say "little" rather than nothing, since it could have the effect of repatriating the money -> increasing the exchange rate -> making imports cheaper. But I can't imagine the effect being strong.

        • ben_w 3 hours ago

          It can do; everyone you export to and import from still has the same money with which to buy and sell, and the same goods have different prices than you'd expect from just exchange rates in different markets.

    • nextlevelwizard 4 hours ago

      as the article states, it didn't really work back then either as the bank accounts were not touched.

      > This stock of notes only comprised 8% of the total Finnish money supply

    • _heimdall 2 hours ago

      That is basically one of the conspiracy theories I have heard related to central bank digital currencies.

      As the tale goes, eventually major banks will run into another financial crisis (possibly intentionally if you really like conspiracy theories). The government will say they have no choice but to step in, and their solution will be to open the federal reserve to the public as a government-run bank. All funds lost in the crisis would be covered under an extended FDIC program and the money would be waiting for you in your new Fed bank account, denominated in the newly created CBDC.

      ---

      In no way am I vouching for the theory, just sharing it as it is very relates to you question of how it could be handled.