(before you jump into discussion, remember that this only about these two individuals)
ICC and the prosecutor are on very solid ground here.
The prosecutor asked opinions from a impartial panel of experts in international law. The panel included people like Theodor Meron (former Legal adviser for the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs), Helene Kennedy, Adrian Fulford.
Netanyahu and Yoav Gallant provided plenty of evidence of the intent. Did they really think that when they talk Hebrew to their audience, rest of the world does not hear them. Case like this would be harder to prosecute without evidence of intent.
Also note that the US imposed heavy sanctions on Ethopia and Eritrea’s entire government party, head of state, spouses and businesses under the exact same observations of provoking famine and starvation
If you do speak Hebrew, you would know that Netanyahu and Gallant have been heavily attacked by the extreme right specifically because they have been refusing to cut off food.
> Gallant provided plenty of evidence of the intent. Did they really think that when they talk Hebrew to their audience, rest of the world does not hear them.
Absolutely, I can not find the BBC or most other major news networks broadcasting and translating any of that.
> Did they really think that when they talk Hebrew to their audience, rest of the world does not hear them. Case like this would be harder to prosecute without evidence of intent.
My question, though, is does pushing these kinds of toothless resolutions make any difference beyond showing that the ICC essentially has no power to enforce its warrants?
It's clear that the most powerful militaries in the world (US, Russia, essentially China too) have declared the "rules-based world order" dead. Does it do anyone any good to pretend this hasn't happened? It reminded me of the post Elizabeth Warren put out complaining that Trump was breaking the law because he didn't sign some ethics pledge: https://x.com/SenWarren/status/1856046118322188573. I couldn't help but roll my eyes. All Warren was doing was showing how pointless these laws are when there are no consequences for breaking them.
The rules-based world order was always a bit of convenient fiction, but I'm afraid it's a fiction that a large part of the world no longer believes in anymore.
I mean, nobody really knows until the trial (if one ever happens). Its easy to be convincing when you are just listening to the prosecution - it gets harder once the defense has the opportunity to poke holes.
Keep in mind the conviction rate at ICC is pretty low.
> The prosecutor asked opinions from a impartial panel of experts in international law.
The court already disagreed with said panel on one of the charges (crime of extermination) and we aren't even at the stage yet where they need proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
Netanyahu and Gallant should certainly be quite worried (if they somehow find themselves in icc custody which seems unlikely) but we are still very far away from a conviction. Its not a foregone conclusion.
For context, this is only possible because the state of Palestine pushed hard and persisted for years to become an ICC member and thus give the ICC jurisdiction over crimes committed on Palestinian territory, whether by Israel or by Palestinian factions. The USA is still mad at them for doing it.
The full account is worth reading, it includes considerations by the various resistance factions that they’d also be subject to ICC jurisdiction and realized threats of punitive measures by the USA and Israel if they continued to push for ICC membership: https://palepedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court%27s_...
And in that time, Israel spied, hacked and intimidated ICC officials. They knew recognition of Palestinian rights would open the door to criminal cases like this, so they’ve been working for almost a decade to discredit the International Criminal Court.
> For context, this is only possible because the state of Palestine pushed hard and persisted for years to become an ICC member and thus give the ICC jurisdiction over crimes committed on Palestinian territory, whether by Israel or by Palestinian factions. The USA is still mad at them for doing it.
That sounds biased.
Why -shouldn't- Palestine be able to be a member of the ICC? Your verbiage makes it sounds like they basically bullied the ICC into membership.
And frankly, so what if the US is still mad at them for it? The US won't join organizations like this because it'd rather protect people like Kissinger who openly committed war crimes (and wants the freedom to be able to do whatever it wants, wherever, without consequence).
"The Chamber therefore found reasonable grounds to believe that Mr Netanyahu and Mr Gallant bear criminal responsibility for the war crime of starvation as a method of warfare."
Whats perhaps interesting to note is that this charge was made for "just" 41 [1] confirmed starvation deaths among a population of 2,141,643 people [2].
Of course every death caused by intentional starvation is a severe crime and must be punished, but in the context of the victim numbers that most past crimes against humanity have had, it sets a relatively low new bar.
This is common and expected. Even when a serial killer suspected of 20 murder is apprehended, arrest is often made based on one or two confirmed cases, more charges are later added as investigation deepens.
Also, keep in mind foreign journalists are completely banned by Israel from entering Gaza- complicating evidence gathering.
Given that the accused is currently in control of the crime scene, it's not surprising that the prosecution chose to prioritise the crimes that are easiest to prove.
"confirmed" data from Gaza at the moment is unreliable. The people who were doing the counting have either been killed or cleansed from the area. The official death toll is still around 40k despite the reality being closer to 100-200k.
> Whats perhaps interesting to note is that this charge was made for "just" 41 [1] confirmed starvation deaths among a population of 2,141,643 people [2].
IANAL but this is probably incorrect i think - the starvation charge is related to allegations of intentionally restricting neccesities of life. Whether anyone dies as a result is irrelavent to that charge. The murder charge is for the people who actually allegedly died as a result (of the starvation that is. To be clear, the death has to illegal for it to be the war crime of murder. Normal combat death is not murder).
> Researchers at the Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs at Brown University estimated deaths from starvation to be 62,413 between October 2023 and September 2024.
> but in the context of the victim numbers that most past crimes against humanity have had, it sets a relatively low new bar.
Which context is this? If you mean the context of past ICC indictments that isn't true. There are multiple other examples of people indicted for specific acts that resulted in the deaths of a 2 digit numbers of people.
The bar for "war crimes" or "crimes against humanity" isn't the number of people you kill. Though in this case, plenty have been killed, this case is about what can be proved conclusively ebough given who it is against.
We can compare the rate to countries in more.. stable situations[0]. They'll have a very difficult time getting anywhere with that rate. But we'll see. The world would be better off with all these individuals having no power at all.
This comment is just pure misinformation. Nobody is claiming only 41 deaths.
You're citing an irrelevant Wikipedia page as a source that has a crazy edit history going back and forth between "41+" and "62,413 conservative estimated" deaths
> The Chamber issued warrants of arrest for two individuals, Mr Benjamin Netanyahu and Mr Yoav Gallant, for crimes against humanity and war crimes committed from at least 8 October 2023 until at least 20 May 2024
And things got much worse in the latter part of 2024. Even if the court didn't take into account facts after 20 May 2024, ample evidence already existing by then was already enough to issue the warrants. When it takes more evidence into account I bet more warrants will be issued.
> The Chamber also noted that decisions allowing or increasing humanitarian assistance into Gaza were often conditional. They were not made to fulfil Israel’s obligations under international humanitarian law or to ensure that the civilian population in Gaza would be adequately supplied with goods in need. In fact, they were a response to the pressure of the international community or requests by the United States of America. In any event, the increases in humanitarian assistance were not sufficient to improve the population’s access to essential goods.
I don't understand why this would matter. Does it matter the rationale for increasing aid? I would think the only thing that should matter would be weather the aid was sufficient or not. (I appreciate in the end icc pretrial felt it wasn't enough , but i think that is the only thing that should matter)
Like if someone is accused of murder, but doesn't because a friend told them not to, we don't throw them in jail because they decided not to murder for the wrong reasons.
I think it does matter, because it's another indicator for intent.
If the starvation is a "simple" side-effect of the combat situation, but you're working actively to alleviate it on your own volition (by doing your best to let in aid organizations, etc) then it's obvious to see there is no intent to it.
If, on the other hand, you have to be pressured by the international community, including your closest allies for every tiny step in the direction of letting in aid, and you will immediately jump two steps back as soon as the pressure eases slightly, then it can be inferred that you really really want the starvation to happen and your only problem with the situation is getting away with it.
(Not even starting with all the government officials who spelled out the whole intent explicitly in public, documented quotes)
> Like if someone is accused of murder, but doesn't because a friend told them not to, we don't throw them in jail because they decided not to murder for the wrong reasons.
The problem is that the murder is happening here and the friend is trying - badly - to convince the person to pull out the knife.
Israel was expected, under international law, to unconditionally allow aid for the civilians. Israel used it as a bargaining chip, effectively holding civilians hostage.
The rationale for supplying aid might not matter when the aid is sufficient. Although, coercive aid might still be a problem; I'm unfamiliar with international law on this.
But when aid is not sufficient, I think rationale/intent makes more of a difference. If you're doing it for the right reasons and putting in a good effort, sufficiency may not be acheivable and it may not be right to charge you with not acheiving it. If you're only doing it to keep your friends happy, and it's insufficient, maybe there was more you could have done.
The word intent is oftentimes used in The judicial system to measure culpability and punishment:
whether somebody accidentally stabbed a person 90 times or intentionally stabbed the person 90 times, for instance, is captured via the concept of intent.
> Like if someone is accused of murder, but doesn't because a friend told them not to, we don't throw them in jail because they decided not to murder for the wrong reasons.
If they did not carry out any action then this holds true. But there were actions carried out that amounts to assault and attempted murder.
>In his first response to the ICC issuing a warrant for his arrest on allegations of war crimes, Benjamin Netanyahu’s office has described the ruling as “absurd and false lies” and said the decision is “antisemitic.”
If Netanyahu and Gallant really think they are innocent, and the allegations are absurd and false, they should cooperate with the ICC. Have your day in court and show how absurd the accusations are. If you're not willing to do that, it seems reasonable for the public to draw a proverbial negative inference.
You are assuming the court isn't a political thing that is trying to get him regardless of evidence. The court is at least partially political, and Netanyahu will tell you this is entirely political and he wouldn't get a fair trail.
> If Netanyahu and Gallant really think they are innocent, and the allegations are absurd and false, they should cooperate with the ICC. Have your day in court and show how absurd the accusations are.
I don't know if I agree with this.
If the ICC is an honest organization that stands for individual rights, liberty and justice then sure.
If, on the other hand, the ICC is a corrupt organization that invites the worst of the worst in terms of rights-violating countries and dictatorial regimes to the table, then no way. In any compromise between right and wrong, good and evil, the wrong has everything to gain and the good has everything to lose.
In other words, I don't have all of the facts when it comes to the ICC and its history. I know that it is separate from the UN, but I don't know very much about it. Therefore I don't know which alternative I ultimately land on.
But in general and in principle, when it comes to those that are objectively and morally wrong, there is every reason to not grant them legitimacy through recognition or participation.
If you think it's a sham, why would you participate in the process? I don't agree that it is a sham, but it's an absurd principle to think that they'd have any interest in doing so.
The Israeli will not recognize the authority of this ICC bench, because it's a politically motivated prosecution. They've lost before the trial even began.
I first thought you were going to point out how the misuse of the word "antisemitic" is especially problematic here:
Do the vast majority of people not understand correlation vs. causation? Because Netanyahu is Jewish does not mean an action against him is because he's Jewish.
That they are willing to use such "cry wolf" tactics, abusing it, dilutes their credibility at minimum - and then should bring their integrity into question, just for this misrepresentation of calling this action antisemitic.
Antisemitic. Every time I hear this word, I can’t help but think of its irony—a term used exclusively for describing discrimination against one community, as if prejudice against them carries more weight than against any other. Perhaps, though, it serves as the best reflection of our hypocrisy.
Also it goes much deeper than that. They were many masscres in Palestine before october 7th, and in Israel as well... A solution would necessarily involves less violence, not more, and at this very instant Israel is the one doing most of it.
> then both the assilant and me are both guilty for criminal assault
War is hell. But this war could have been conducted better. Yes, aid was being diverted by Hamas. But that doesn't mean you stop providing it, it means you do what you must to take control on the ground. The deaths from bombings, et cetera have not been found to be war crimes. The starvation, which was and continues to be avoidable, is.
No but this opinion is unjustifiably considered antisemitic and you couuld potentially have unwanted repercussions e.g. lose your job if you make it public. Such are the times we live in.
> A warrant was also issued for [Hamas military commander] Mohammed Deif, although the Israeli military has said he was killed in an air strike in Gaza in July.
Most news reports are treating this as a single story, but posting the original source seems a good idea in this case; it just happens to be split across two URLs.
I doubt there will be actual arrests, but there will be and there are already consequences. I just saw France and Netherlands announced they will obey the warrants, thus Netanyahu can no longer travel there. Presumably the whole of EU is off limits (I am unaware which countries recognize the court).
He will never leave Israel again. He is 75 and doesn't have many years ahead of him anyway. At some point soon he will either be voted out or kicked out through regular knessent machinations and spend his remaining years writing his memoris in hebrew only.
According to Israel at least, all the ones that the warrants were requested for are now dead. Perhaps new warrants will be issued, but simply taking on the mantle of Hamas leadership will not make someone retroactively culpable for the crimes of October 7th. Culpability at this level is personal, not collective. So even though anyone who becomes the next leader of Hamas will be, by this act itself, a terrible human seeking to advance some horrible ideals, that will not make them culpable for everything Hamas has already done.
Reading the comments in this thread and reflecting on history a bit, the thought that comes to mind is that this is less a trial for the defendants and more a trial of the ICC and more broadly international institutions and their true independence, effectiveness and ultimately, relevance.
If you think that trying some head of a small thuggish state, founded by its unilateral declaration of sovereignty over someone else's land, while already cleansing it of unruly natives, and terrorizing British officials for years both in Palestine and internationally (like with assassination campaigns and embassy bombings), that dug its own hole over decades into ethno-supremacy based and messianically driven conflict with Palestinians, will in any way degrade legitimacy of a court and treaty joined by 125 sovereign states (with almost all "western" ones included), then you're deluding yourself.
Especially when he's being explicitly tried for his role in ensuring that children have to suffer amputations and women get c-sections without anesthesia (among other things), which has nothing to do with defense of Israel.
If anything ICC standing rose a bit in many people's eyes today, slightly above the "court for african warmongers only", where it was previously.
The ICC is not under the US control and thus the US sees it as a potentially dangerous organization and the fact that it is in Europe (an influential entity) doesn't make things any better. The US turned a blind eye on the ICC because it used to prosecute its enemies. Now that it's touching its agenda, it makes sense that they do not like it.
Replying to the "dead" comment below (I wish HN killed only spam comments):
> Mainly because i feel the rest of the world lives in a Disneyland like state of fake security that is guaranteed by the United States and never has to contend with the actual reality of the world.
> The actual realities of statehood say the ICC is a joke.
> As for your contention of thuggery.. again, referencing my Disneyland allegation... Thuggery is the basis of statehood and if that makes you uncomfortable, it's because you've been raised in Pax Americana.
> It's really time most countries started paying tribute to the United States, but I do understand the strategic benefit of magnanimity.
I get this viewpoint.
Basically, the idea is that humans can only exist as a society of thugs, and everything else is just fairy tales. In that theory, the best possible outcome is achieved when one of the thugs is much more powerfull than all others, thus enforcing "some" order. Therefore, we should all pay tribute to it.
I have issues with that theory though.
Firstly, I do not believe it. Secondly, even if I did I would consider it a moral duty to still fight it for the small chance it's false. A finally, it does not say what to do in a situation like today when the former bigger thug is becoming weaker and is challenged by the competition. Are we supposed to wait patiently underground the next 20 years until the next contender takes the throne?
There is another theory, according to which human societies _evolve_ as any organism do. It can actually be shown that humans did tame themselves, and became less aggressive/more cooperative after tens of thousands of years of living cooperatively, first in small scale then in larger and larger scale. I take everyone's repulsion against the current state of affairs, or against any sociopathic bahavior for that matter, as another hint of this.
We _did_ evolve out of a primitive condition where there was no conceivable human made law or justice into a society where the rule of law was just a trick, into a condition where the rule of law was desirable, and possibly one day into a condition where the rule of law appears natural.
I believe the cynical viewpoint that you expressed, and that I share sometimes when my mood is low, is actually the fantasy.
Yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic was arrested and deported by the government of Yugoslavia after him. Of course, under immense pressure from the west. My preference would be that we tried him under our courts and sent him to jail in Yugoslavia/Serbia.
Now, imposing "justice" obviously only works when you do it to small nations like Yugoslavia or Rwanda. Of course it will not apply to the Israel leader, let alone to somebody from even more powerful nation.
> When was the last time a head of state was arrested by the ICC?
It also acts as a deterrent as much of the world will now likely be out of bounds for travel for either the Israelis or Hamas leadership who were issued warrants.
Wow, this took a long time to come after the application for the warrants. 185 days compared to 23 days for Putin's arrest warrant — but then again, one was against the wishes of the USA and the west while the other was at their behest.
I wouldn't say "and the west" without more qualifications. The USA and Germany are solidly behind whatever the Israeli government does. England a bit less so and the rest of "the west" (however you want to define it) is more ambivalent. My point is that if only two countries (the USA and Germany) would make their support more conditional (conditional on the israeli government not commiting war crimes for example), then things could change a lot
My guess is that it's simply a matter of how difficult it is to prove the issue. The Putin case was very simply because there is an official state program to do things that are considered genocide. Israel is at least pretending they are letting aid in.
A whole cladde of people here who collectively decided that the politics of the outside and the ugly that came from it does not matter anymore, specialising in the interior design of society with the most horrid weapon being a social ostracizing. The idea that building could pancake under artillery fire from the vacuum just is not part of reality and now papertiger hissy fits from the windows .
Being the minister of defense gives you culpability for the military actions the ICC has decided are war crimes, I'd think? But I am not an expert in international law, just don't find it surprising.
He's the minister of defense (not anymore but was at the time). If the allegations are true, then as minister of defense he probably ordered the things in question (or failed to stop them)
that is a good question. we've seen folks from the Biden/Harris admin resign over military aid to Israel, and it appears the admin indeed was in violation of US law when said aid was given. could they face criminal charges for complicity? i find it hard to believe they had no idea what was going on.
another question i have regards the future: it appears the US is working on even more aid for Israel, see Bernie's latest attempt to prevent that. now that leadership in Israel has warrants out for them, will the US aid continue? certainly would be a bad look to continue aiding Israel at this point i reckon.
what an absolute tragic mess all around. i'm ashamed of our complicity, and sadly will not be surprised one bit if we continue giving them aid despite it all.
Biden/Harris, Starmer, Scholz and Macron have all been supplying Israel with arms, all whole knowing they are carrying out a genocide. The US has also had boots on the ground, and the UK has flown hundreds of spy and missions over Gaza. Meanwhile, they all give near carbon-copy press statements that read like they came straight from Israeli Hasbara.
They have knowingly supported and aided Israel, and I hope more warrants are forthcoming.
Come to think of it, plenty of journalists and media orgs are complicit too, such as the BBC.
I wish. The US government has been an absolute disgrace in how we've handled support of Israel unflinchingly. I guess we didn't write enough sternly written letters while people were being forcibly starved to death.
This leads to a bit of a conundrum for the Netherlands. It is the home of the ICC and officially a big sponsor of international justice. But also the right wing government has a hard on for Israel. I don't think that our esteemed ancestors ever envisioned white people to end up in court...
The leader of the PVV (biggest political party) is going to visit colonial settlers in Israël.
Many immigrants hate Israel.
Official state policy is a two state solution.
The relocation of the Dutch embassy to Jerusalem.
You could make a Netflix TV show about this. May we all live interesting times!
Hopefully he gets arrested that would fulfill me with joy and laughter. But realistically nobody was and probably will be able to humble Netanyahu, he is a above the ladder psychopath.
E.g. Going to 2 then down to 0, back up, back down and stabilizing again at 0; of course sophisticated coordinated activity will pace itself, even if across real users, as to not "waste their ammo" or be blatantly obvious; makes me wonder if there have been any studies analyzing this.. anywho. Back to life.
I really don't think this belongs on the front page.
It is a highly divisive political issue with strong radicalisation
at the edges of any discourse on it.
I have my own strong opinions on it, but arguing it does
not in my opinon belong on the front page here.
There are plenty of places you can go and have this discussion
in as heated of a version as you prefer.
I disagree. #1 this topic is not as divisive as it may seem. There is consensus as to what is happening and only a minority of the world thinks otherwise.
#2 Israel is a major tech partner and most large tech companies have offices in Tel Aviv. Many startups that we discuss here are headquartered in Tel Aviv. The head of state of the country having an ICC arrest warrant and the situation at large have major consequences to the tech world and thus HackerNews users have a unique lens through which to have discourse. Discourse with an angle that you won't find elsewhere this is discussed.
Not super meaningful in reality - any country looking to arrest either man should tread carefully.
The American Service-Members' Protection Act authorizes the President of the United States to use "all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any U.S. or allied personnel being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court".
Israel is listed in the act as covered. Any means explicitly includes lethal force, which is why the act is nicknamed the "Invade the Hague" act.
The question here is why is only Israel covered in this act?
Also anti-BDS legislation in finance, regardless of ethical etc. concerns?
The US gives $4bn/year to Israel gratis, and so far $20bn in weapons over the course of this conflict, including advanced weapons like the F35 WITH source code access (which no other F35 partner has) - why?
There have been no investigations of US deaths WRT settler violence, aid workers killed etc. Normally with any US death it's a huge issue.
What does Israel do in return to make it such a favoured country?
eg. 20bn in disaster relief aid to Florida would be probably more welcome by US citizens.
The Netherlands said that they would arrest anybody accused. That would be peculiar to see, what would actually happen if anybody of the accused were to travel there.
I'm sure if they try it will go down perfectly well with the rest of the world.
It's not like the US has a monopoly on finances or force globally. China and BRICS are waiting in the wings.
This will not amount to anything, but it's nice to know we aren't all crazy or anti-semitic for thinking the Israeli state has been acting very poorly in regards to the State of Palestine. Feels a little bit like trying to get organized crime on tax evasion.
What is the point of the ICC? Russia doesn't recognize it, Israel doesn't recognize it and even the United States doesn't recognize it. I am confused at what these warrants even mean.
In this case, to make a political statement against Israel and their leadership.
Note that the only member of Hamas indicted, Mohammed Deif, will never see a day in court. As the ICC already knows, he was killed in an airstrike earlier this year.
In practice these warrants mean that they cannot travel to any country that does recognize the ICC without being arrested, which means they almost certainly won't.
There have been several pundits with opinion on the matter, you’ll find quite a few in any news source (personally I recommend al-Jazeera). The gist of it is that this will have implication mostly around travels of Israeli officials to Europe. We might also see a slow and gradual policy shift in Europe as a result of this.
Rightfully so, their intentions and actions which have matched, have been clear for the last year. Hopefully the rest of the international community including governments will finally stand together and call them out for the crimes they have been committing. This is hopefully a step to removing arms sales to Israel as well from many countries.
Hacker News Guidelines: Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, or celebrities, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon... If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.
Users flagged it, as is common for the most divisive topics.
I've turned the flags off now, in keeping with HN's standard practices: some (but only some) stories with political overlap are allowed, and in the case of a Major Ongoing Topic (MOT) we prefer the stories that contain Significant New Information (SNI).
> The Act gives the president power to use "all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any U.S. or allied personnel being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court".[2]
If you dig a little further, you'll notice that it also applies to "military personnel, elected or appointed officials, and other persons employed by or working on behalf of the government of a NATO member country, a major non-NATO ally including Australia, Egypt, Israel, Japan, Argentina, the Republic of Korea, and New Zealand."
I wanna emphasize: This pre-dates Trump, Biden and Obama. This has been a law for over two decades. It passed both the House and the Senate with very little opposition. Both parties voted in favour of it.
Trump is heavily funded by Zionist extremists, but he isn't one himself. As soon as the ship really starts sinking (which could be induced by a Netanyahu arrest), he will attempt to jump ship and save himself.
It's a bit reminiscent of the Bangladesh genocide by Pakistan, to whom the United States also sold weapons and also did nothing to stop hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties.
I'm wondering what power does the ICC have to carry out its sentencing if the US chooses to disagree with it?
Same with The Hague court, where the US said its soldiers would be imune from standing trial for crimes.
So if these international courts are only allowed selective enforcement, what's the point of their existence? To only prosecute people the US doesn't choose to protect? Then what's the line between good guys and bad guys?
Because US and European countries very directly supports Israel in this case. In the other cases you refer to they are conflicts independent of western countries or at least the western influences are more indirect.
Yeah, by comparison the total coverage of the ongoing devastating civil wars in Sudan, Yemen, Myanmar and Haiti is miniscule.
I guess to play devil's advocate, the US is much more involved in Palestine via its essentially unconditional military support for Israel, so it makes sense for the American left to make noise because in theory they could influence things.
Our tax money is funding these atrocities. I felt the same way about the genocide in Yemen.
>Around the world, countless marginalized groups face equally dire or even worse conditions and would welcome similar support from these people
I don't think this is true. The majority of people dying of or suffering from starvation on earth right now are in Gaza.
>Yet, these so-called human rights advocates remain willfully ignorant of anyone or anything happening outside of the US and the Israel/Palestine conlflict.
You have blinders on if you think this is the case.
>Given this, how can anyone take these protesters seriously when they exhibit a groupthink mentality, lacking self-awareness or critical thinking, and behaving more like zombies than independent thinkers?
I'd rather you didn't take us seriously if you're not going to fully understand our goals or reasons for our beliefs.
This is textbook whataboutism. I live in the UK. I'm outraged by how much time/money is spent on Israel and Ukraine issues than our own. Similar to yourself, I have to wonder why UK govt chose to help one side with weapons in these specific conflicts. The difference here is of course, protestors are there on their own free will (for the most part, I guess?), whilst I don't have a say in how my tax money is being used.
They are right, though, aren’t they? We came up with these regulations and international agreements for a reason.
If they ignore war crimes, their authority loses meaning, but if they pass judgment that we know is going to be completely ignored, their authority also loses meaning. Unless the powers that be decide to honor their word, it’s all pointless. What’s next?
It isn't scary at all. I for one, would much prefer to live in a world where war crimes and acts of genocide are appropriately called out. The fact this hasn't come sooner is the scary thing.
Because nobody is invading Israel. Nobody's declaring war.
The whole point of international law is to hold citizens of sovereign nations accountable, without having to go to war to achieve it.
Nobody has legal authority to go into Israel to seize Netanyahu. But now he knows that if he tries to travel to Europe, he will be seized upon entry. That's not war, that's simply apprehending someone who there is an arrest warrant out for.
War at its core is not a murder contest. You have to be strategic and you have to deal with the reality of trying to govern any conquered subjects which historically hasn't been very successful in the long term. In a globally connected world, you have to deal with the rest of the planet reacting to your actions.
That's not even touching on concepts like human rights and international law.
I generally agree with this take. The big problem with it is that the current and likely future israeli administrion(s) have as one of their largest goals the annexation of the west bank, not because of security but because they truly believe god gave them that land. IMO there is little reason to believe israelis will ever allow the palestinians full sovereignty in the west bank. So whats on the table for them in your situation? Probably giving up even more land in the west bank and the fear that israel can start a war to annex even more of it any time the israeli right wins an election. Which gets at the heart of the issue here, neither side has any reason to believe the other is negotiating in good faith, so negations can never really begin.
Ive spent a decent amount of time in Israel and my observation is that the prospect for peace is incredibly dim.
Are you asking why 5 million people don't just accept total subjugation to Israel and renounce all desire for self-determination as a nation? Let themselves be subjugated to permanent occupation and political persecution? All in all to a state that rejects Palestinian right to ever try Israelis for any and all crimes they do to them, including war crimes and crimes against humanity? (that's what even several EU states effectively argued before ICC, when challenging the jurisdiction of the court)
Israel claims there will be no Palestinian state ever, because it's a percieved threat to Israel security. Knesset resolution claiming that was passed this year. And by that, for Israelis that's poof "no self-determination for 5 mil. people". No loss for Israelis, I guess in that. They'll not even let them be citizens of Israel, because democracy doesn't mean much to Israel. Israel has to be a Jewish state, not like half Jewish half Arab and soon majority arab looking at demographic growth...
I don't know? Maybe they really don't want this, and don't know how to get out of that situation created by Jews and their European "allies" back in first half of last century in any other way.
And please don't tell me you're presuming Israel to be the innocent and honest party in all this.
Um. I would take the hand-wringing a little more seriously if it were not for the fact that Israeli army is not exactly known for being super adherent to rules of engagement you suggest[1]. Please do note that this is US media saying this, which is already doing what it can to cover for Israel with oh so familiar talking points.
<< To say that to attack them after they do that is to invite prosecution is risable.
Some of us do take issue with indiscriminately bombing a hospital to get one 'bad guy' or even ten 'bad guys'. Maybe it was more excusable when technology was less.. accurate, but it is very hard to argue that point when the country bombing said hospital is able to surgically explode pagers in Lebanon[2]. And Israel can't even take over a small enclave it almost completely cut off from the rest of the world?
That is risable. And all this after massive US support both in blood in treasury.
I’m sorry but this brazenly wrong and a form of propaganda; you need to provide evidence for your claims. Hamas-employed Gaza police shoot at gangs that rob the aid containers with the implicit protection of Israel. Many videos have been posted spuriously claiming without any evidence that the individuals highjackimg the aid “are Hamas” when all documented evidence points to the very opposite.
Just two days ago: Gangs looting Gaza aid operate in areas under Israeli control, aid groups say
“Officials said criminal looting has become the greatest impediment to distributing aid in the southern half of Gaza, home to the vast majority of displaced Palestinians. Armed bands of men have killed, beaten and kidnapped aid truck drivers in the area around Israel’s Kerem Shalom crossing, the main entry point into Gaza’s south, aid workers and transport companies said. The thieves, who have run cigarette-smuggling operations throughout this year but are now also stealing food and other supplies, are tied to local crime families, residents say. The gangs are described by observers as rivals of Hamas and, in some cases, they have been targeted by remnants of Hamas’s security forces in other parts of the enclave.”
‘An internal United Nations memo obtained by The Washington Post concluded last month that the gangs “may be benefiting from a passive if not active benevolence” or “protection” from the Israel Defense Forces. One gang leader, the memo said, established a “military like compound” in an area “restricted, controlled and patrolled by the IDF.”’
> Netanyahu is viewed as the messiah of the Jewish people
I think there was a strong urge to portray him as the second coming of King David (the slayer of Goliath) after the assassinations of (other war criminals) Deif, Haniyeh, Nasrallah, Saifeddine, and Sinwar within 6 months of each other.
> something about rebuilding a temple in Jerusalem
No temple yet, but there's a valid religious claim should they choose to build one on the Rock. The main mosque is actually a few hundred meters removed from the Rock.
> until he achieves the eradication of the Palestinian people he will not rest
Think the political apparatus strives to control the demographics (for its own survival)? Eradication is one mechanism, but at 7 million Palestinians, they'd need to summon a World War esque scenario to pull it off. So, unlikely?
Numerous IDF soldiers and settlers have been photographed wearing or displaying the shape of Greater Israel - a plan to seize land and expand Israel into almost every one of its neighbors territories. Tim Walz even let slip in the debate that "expansion" was a key goal of US support.
To speak only to the factual claims and not any of your conclusions:
Biblical Israel did not include any part of Egypt, nor does it contain all of Lebanon.
It is concerning that you would claim this when the biblical map of Israel is a Google search away.
Speaking as someone within the Jewish community, absolutely no one views Netanyahu as the messiah. You will find all sorts and views that are for or against, but none that he is some messiah. (I'm sure you could find some 5 cranks who do; you could also find 5 Christian cranks who believe the earth is flat. In that case it would never even occur to you to say that Christians believe the earth is flat.)
The belief is that the temple will be rebuilt when the messiah comes. It has not, which is also something you could have googled.
There is a tiny segment who wishes to make that happen now. The overwhelming majority see this as something that will happen in messianic times, not an instruction manual for the present.
If you are this misinformed on points that are easily looked up I strongly suggest you seek information outside of whatever echo chamber you currently find yourself in.
So you want to say that the reason for _not_ doing this is: it will distract from the effort to stop the cleansing.
Would that be the same as saying that we shouldn't issue a warrant against a school shooter because it wouldn't stop the shooting? Would it distract from gun laws?
Maybe not the best analogy, but I know that I cannot say for certain whether it will negatively or positively affect the effort. It might positively affect if this makes (especially EU) countries put more pressure on Israel.
The guy is the Hamas leader who was killed recently? How would Israel get him? Special forces raid? He could hide anywhere in Gaza. And why would Israel want to do a decapitation instead of destroying the hostile organization? Even assuming Israel doesn't want to annex territory that seems like expecting the US to react to 9/11 by sending the Navy Seals after Bin Laden and stop it at that.
The Gaza invasion was never about the hostages. If Israel cared about the hostages they wouldn't have indiscriminately bombed the entire territory. The hostages are dead, and demanding the impossible return of people they killed is simply a pretext:
They want land expansion and the total ethnic cleansing of Palestine. Look up 'Greater Israel'. Tim Walz accidentally let it slip during a debate that this is the goal of the US empires support.
(before you jump into discussion, remember that this only about these two individuals)
ICC and the prosecutor are on very solid ground here.
The prosecutor asked opinions from a impartial panel of experts in international law. The panel included people like Theodor Meron (former Legal adviser for the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs), Helene Kennedy, Adrian Fulford.
Netanyahu and Yoav Gallant provided plenty of evidence of the intent. Did they really think that when they talk Hebrew to their audience, rest of the world does not hear them. Case like this would be harder to prosecute without evidence of intent.
Also important to note that Khan, who filed the warrant requests, was one of Israel’s preferred appointees to the ICC as chief prosecutor.
Also note that the US imposed heavy sanctions on Ethopia and Eritrea’s entire government party, head of state, spouses and businesses under the exact same observations of provoking famine and starvation
EO 14046
If you do speak Hebrew, you would know that Netanyahu and Gallant have been heavily attacked by the extreme right specifically because they have been refusing to cut off food.
> Gallant provided plenty of evidence of the intent. Did they really think that when they talk Hebrew to their audience, rest of the world does not hear them.
Absolutely, I can not find the BBC or most other major news networks broadcasting and translating any of that.
I only see that on social media
> Did they really think that when they talk Hebrew to their audience, rest of the world does not hear them. Case like this would be harder to prosecute without evidence of intent.
What are you talking about here? Link?
My question, though, is does pushing these kinds of toothless resolutions make any difference beyond showing that the ICC essentially has no power to enforce its warrants?
It's clear that the most powerful militaries in the world (US, Russia, essentially China too) have declared the "rules-based world order" dead. Does it do anyone any good to pretend this hasn't happened? It reminded me of the post Elizabeth Warren put out complaining that Trump was breaking the law because he didn't sign some ethics pledge: https://x.com/SenWarren/status/1856046118322188573. I couldn't help but roll my eyes. All Warren was doing was showing how pointless these laws are when there are no consequences for breaking them.
The rules-based world order was always a bit of convenient fiction, but I'm afraid it's a fiction that a large part of the world no longer believes in anymore.
I mean, nobody really knows until the trial (if one ever happens). Its easy to be convincing when you are just listening to the prosecution - it gets harder once the defense has the opportunity to poke holes.
Keep in mind the conviction rate at ICC is pretty low.
> The prosecutor asked opinions from a impartial panel of experts in international law.
The court already disagreed with said panel on one of the charges (crime of extermination) and we aren't even at the stage yet where they need proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
Netanyahu and Gallant should certainly be quite worried (if they somehow find themselves in icc custody which seems unlikely) but we are still very far away from a conviction. Its not a foregone conclusion.
> Did they really think that when they talk Hebrew to their audience, rest of the world does not hear them.
When it comes to US public opinion, that's normally the way it works.
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For context, this is only possible because the state of Palestine pushed hard and persisted for years to become an ICC member and thus give the ICC jurisdiction over crimes committed on Palestinian territory, whether by Israel or by Palestinian factions. The USA is still mad at them for doing it.
The full account is worth reading, it includes considerations by the various resistance factions that they’d also be subject to ICC jurisdiction and realized threats of punitive measures by the USA and Israel if they continued to push for ICC membership: https://palepedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court%27s_...
And in that time, Israel spied, hacked and intimidated ICC officials. They knew recognition of Palestinian rights would open the door to criminal cases like this, so they’ve been working for almost a decade to discredit the International Criminal Court.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/28/spying...
> state of Palestine pushed hard and persisted for years to become an ICC member
good for them; is there some reason they shouldn't have?
> For context, this is only possible because the state of Palestine pushed hard and persisted for years to become an ICC member and thus give the ICC jurisdiction over crimes committed on Palestinian territory, whether by Israel or by Palestinian factions. The USA is still mad at them for doing it.
That sounds biased.
Why -shouldn't- Palestine be able to be a member of the ICC? Your verbiage makes it sounds like they basically bullied the ICC into membership.
And frankly, so what if the US is still mad at them for it? The US won't join organizations like this because it'd rather protect people like Kissinger who openly committed war crimes (and wants the freedom to be able to do whatever it wants, wherever, without consequence).
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"The Chamber therefore found reasonable grounds to believe that Mr Netanyahu and Mr Gallant bear criminal responsibility for the war crime of starvation as a method of warfare."
Whats perhaps interesting to note is that this charge was made for "just" 41 [1] confirmed starvation deaths among a population of 2,141,643 people [2].
Of course every death caused by intentional starvation is a severe crime and must be punished, but in the context of the victim numbers that most past crimes against humanity have had, it sets a relatively low new bar.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip_famine
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip
This is common and expected. Even when a serial killer suspected of 20 murder is apprehended, arrest is often made based on one or two confirmed cases, more charges are later added as investigation deepens.
Also, keep in mind foreign journalists are completely banned by Israel from entering Gaza- complicating evidence gathering.
Given that the accused is currently in control of the crime scene, it's not surprising that the prosecution chose to prioritise the crimes that are easiest to prove.
"confirmed" data from Gaza at the moment is unreliable. The people who were doing the counting have either been killed or cleansed from the area. The official death toll is still around 40k despite the reality being closer to 100-200k.
> Whats perhaps interesting to note is that this charge was made for "just" 41 [1] confirmed starvation deaths among a population of 2,141,643 people [2].
IANAL but this is probably incorrect i think - the starvation charge is related to allegations of intentionally restricting neccesities of life. Whether anyone dies as a result is irrelavent to that charge. The murder charge is for the people who actually allegedly died as a result (of the starvation that is. To be clear, the death has to illegal for it to be the war crime of murder. Normal combat death is not murder).
> Researchers at the Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs at Brown University estimated deaths from starvation to be 62,413 between October 2023 and September 2024.
> but in the context of the victim numbers that most past crimes against humanity have had, it sets a relatively low new bar.
Which context is this? If you mean the context of past ICC indictments that isn't true. There are multiple other examples of people indicted for specific acts that resulted in the deaths of a 2 digit numbers of people.
The bar for "war crimes" or "crimes against humanity" isn't the number of people you kill. Though in this case, plenty have been killed, this case is about what can be proved conclusively ebough given who it is against.
We can compare the rate to countries in more.. stable situations[0]. They'll have a very difficult time getting anywhere with that rate. But we'll see. The world would be better off with all these individuals having no power at all.
[0] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/starvatio...
Starvation vs starvation to death are different things.
War crime of starvation was directed against 2.3 million people without distinction, incl. ~1 million children. I'd say that's bad enough.
This comment is just pure misinformation. Nobody is claiming only 41 deaths.
You're citing an irrelevant Wikipedia page as a source that has a crazy edit history going back and forth between "41+" and "62,413 conservative estimated" deaths
What’s the threshold for war crimes?
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> The Chamber issued warrants of arrest for two individuals, Mr Benjamin Netanyahu and Mr Yoav Gallant, for crimes against humanity and war crimes committed from at least 8 October 2023 until at least 20 May 2024
And things got much worse in the latter part of 2024. Even if the court didn't take into account facts after 20 May 2024, ample evidence already existing by then was already enough to issue the warrants. When it takes more evidence into account I bet more warrants will be issued.
It is incredibly likely another series of warrants will be issued for the next level down of both Israeli and Hamas leadership.
It is too bad Lebanon didn't ratify the ICC treaty. They really should have.
> The Chamber also noted that decisions allowing or increasing humanitarian assistance into Gaza were often conditional. They were not made to fulfil Israel’s obligations under international humanitarian law or to ensure that the civilian population in Gaza would be adequately supplied with goods in need. In fact, they were a response to the pressure of the international community or requests by the United States of America. In any event, the increases in humanitarian assistance were not sufficient to improve the population’s access to essential goods.
I don't understand why this would matter. Does it matter the rationale for increasing aid? I would think the only thing that should matter would be weather the aid was sufficient or not. (I appreciate in the end icc pretrial felt it wasn't enough , but i think that is the only thing that should matter)
Like if someone is accused of murder, but doesn't because a friend told them not to, we don't throw them in jail because they decided not to murder for the wrong reasons.
I think it does matter, because it's another indicator for intent.
If the starvation is a "simple" side-effect of the combat situation, but you're working actively to alleviate it on your own volition (by doing your best to let in aid organizations, etc) then it's obvious to see there is no intent to it.
If, on the other hand, you have to be pressured by the international community, including your closest allies for every tiny step in the direction of letting in aid, and you will immediately jump two steps back as soon as the pressure eases slightly, then it can be inferred that you really really want the starvation to happen and your only problem with the situation is getting away with it.
(Not even starting with all the government officials who spelled out the whole intent explicitly in public, documented quotes)
> Like if someone is accused of murder, but doesn't because a friend told them not to, we don't throw them in jail because they decided not to murder for the wrong reasons.
The problem is that the murder is happening here and the friend is trying - badly - to convince the person to pull out the knife.
Israel was expected, under international law, to unconditionally allow aid for the civilians. Israel used it as a bargaining chip, effectively holding civilians hostage.
The rationale for supplying aid might not matter when the aid is sufficient. Although, coercive aid might still be a problem; I'm unfamiliar with international law on this.
But when aid is not sufficient, I think rationale/intent makes more of a difference. If you're doing it for the right reasons and putting in a good effort, sufficiency may not be acheivable and it may not be right to charge you with not acheiving it. If you're only doing it to keep your friends happy, and it's insufficient, maybe there was more you could have done.
The word intent is oftentimes used in The judicial system to measure culpability and punishment:
whether somebody accidentally stabbed a person 90 times or intentionally stabbed the person 90 times, for instance, is captured via the concept of intent.
> Like if someone is accused of murder, but doesn't because a friend told them not to, we don't throw them in jail because they decided not to murder for the wrong reasons.
If they did not carry out any action then this holds true. But there were actions carried out that amounts to assault and attempted murder.
> Like if someone is accused of murder,
This analogy has issues.
Topic is war. As far as international law is concerned, it’s “ok” to shoot people, blow them up and maim them.
I would propose analogy from a contact sport like mma (or the movie “purge”).
Bad things, that usually are forbidden, are allowed and even expected to be done in the event. Rules just add some restriction on how and why.
>In his first response to the ICC issuing a warrant for his arrest on allegations of war crimes, Benjamin Netanyahu’s office has described the ruling as “absurd and false lies” and said the decision is “antisemitic.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/nov/21/internati...
If Netanyahu and Gallant really think they are innocent, and the allegations are absurd and false, they should cooperate with the ICC. Have your day in court and show how absurd the accusations are. If you're not willing to do that, it seems reasonable for the public to draw a proverbial negative inference.
You are assuming the court isn't a political thing that is trying to get him regardless of evidence. The court is at least partially political, and Netanyahu will tell you this is entirely political and he wouldn't get a fair trail.
> If Netanyahu and Gallant really think they are innocent, and the allegations are absurd and false, they should cooperate with the ICC. Have your day in court and show how absurd the accusations are.
I don't know if I agree with this.
If the ICC is an honest organization that stands for individual rights, liberty and justice then sure.
If, on the other hand, the ICC is a corrupt organization that invites the worst of the worst in terms of rights-violating countries and dictatorial regimes to the table, then no way. In any compromise between right and wrong, good and evil, the wrong has everything to gain and the good has everything to lose.
In other words, I don't have all of the facts when it comes to the ICC and its history. I know that it is separate from the UN, but I don't know very much about it. Therefore I don't know which alternative I ultimately land on.
But in general and in principle, when it comes to those that are objectively and morally wrong, there is every reason to not grant them legitimacy through recognition or participation.
> they should cooperate with the ICC. Have your day in court and show how absurd the accusations are
There's a reason why the US does not recognize the ICC.
If you think it's a sham, why would you participate in the process? I don't agree that it is a sham, but it's an absurd principle to think that they'd have any interest in doing so.
The Israeli will not recognize the authority of this ICC bench, because it's a politically motivated prosecution. They've lost before the trial even began.
I first thought you were going to point out how the misuse of the word "antisemitic" is especially problematic here:
Do the vast majority of people not understand correlation vs. causation? Because Netanyahu is Jewish does not mean an action against him is because he's Jewish.
That they are willing to use such "cry wolf" tactics, abusing it, dilutes their credibility at minimum - and then should bring their integrity into question, just for this misrepresentation of calling this action antisemitic.
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Antisemitic. Every time I hear this word, I can’t help but think of its irony—a term used exclusively for describing discrimination against one community, as if prejudice against them carries more weight than against any other. Perhaps, though, it serves as the best reflection of our hypocrisy.
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Am I the only one who thinks it's completely justified for leaders of both sides to be wanted for war crimes??
If someone assaults me and I retaliate by injuring their family members then both the assilant and me are both guilty for criminal assault.
Maybe not a perfect analogy but that's what it seems has happened here...
Yup, there is a legal concept called excessive self-defense.
Also it goes much deeper than that. They were many masscres in Palestine before october 7th, and in Israel as well... A solution would necessarily involves less violence, not more, and at this very instant Israel is the one doing most of it.
> then both the assilant and me are both guilty for criminal assault
War is hell. But this war could have been conducted better. Yes, aid was being diverted by Hamas. But that doesn't mean you stop providing it, it means you do what you must to take control on the ground. The deaths from bombings, et cetera have not been found to be war crimes. The starvation, which was and continues to be avoidable, is.
Warrants were issued for leaders on both sides. Also, the situation has structural asymmetries that are important to navigate.
Sure, like bullied kid getting suspended because all this trouble is because of him.
Doesn't seem to accomplish much in the age of remote work.
Putin has had an arrest warrant for years and he just attended the BRICS summit remotely instead of in person.
Since in theory they would be obligated to arrest him in person. But seemed they had no problem letting him attend by video call.
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How does that lineup with Ukraine. Would Zelensky and Putin and everyone who played a role including Biden get an arrest warrant?
No but this opinion is unjustifiably considered antisemitic and you couuld potentially have unwanted repercussions e.g. lose your job if you make it public. Such are the times we live in.
According to the BBC:
> A warrant was also issued for [Hamas military commander] Mohammed Deif, although the Israeli military has said he was killed in an air strike in Gaza in July.
[0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly2exvx944o
This is the link: https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-state-palestine-icc-p...
Most news reports are treating this as a single story, but posting the original source seems a good idea in this case; it just happens to be split across two URLs.
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I doubt there will be actual arrests, but there will be and there are already consequences. I just saw France and Netherlands announced they will obey the warrants, thus Netanyahu can no longer travel there. Presumably the whole of EU is off limits (I am unaware which countries recognize the court).
EU foreign policy chief said the court's decision should be implemented. Ireland also indicated they would comply with the warrant.
I expect Germany to declare the opposite. There is a small chance this incident fractures the European Union.
He will never leave Israel again. He is 75 and doesn't have many years ahead of him anyway. At some point soon he will either be voted out or kicked out through regular knessent machinations and spend his remaining years writing his memoris in hebrew only.
The HN title says "and Hamas officials," but this appears nowhere in the article.
https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-state-palestine-icc-p...
Article is pretty light on the details of the Hamas officials. I wonder if they’ll show up to their day in court.
According to Israel at least, all the ones that the warrants were requested for are now dead. Perhaps new warrants will be issued, but simply taking on the mantle of Hamas leadership will not make someone retroactively culpable for the crimes of October 7th. Culpability at this level is personal, not collective. So even though anyone who becomes the next leader of Hamas will be, by this act itself, a terrible human seeking to advance some horrible ideals, that will not make them culpable for everything Hamas has already done.
No because dead
Reading the comments in this thread and reflecting on history a bit, the thought that comes to mind is that this is less a trial for the defendants and more a trial of the ICC and more broadly international institutions and their true independence, effectiveness and ultimately, relevance.
Reflecting on the history a bit...
If you think that trying some head of a small thuggish state, founded by its unilateral declaration of sovereignty over someone else's land, while already cleansing it of unruly natives, and terrorizing British officials for years both in Palestine and internationally (like with assassination campaigns and embassy bombings), that dug its own hole over decades into ethno-supremacy based and messianically driven conflict with Palestinians, will in any way degrade legitimacy of a court and treaty joined by 125 sovereign states (with almost all "western" ones included), then you're deluding yourself.
Especially when he's being explicitly tried for his role in ensuring that children have to suffer amputations and women get c-sections without anesthesia (among other things), which has nothing to do with defense of Israel.
If anything ICC standing rose a bit in many people's eyes today, slightly above the "court for african warmongers only", where it was previously.
As a European, I find the reactions from the US politicians as related in this Al-Jazeera article quite choking : https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/21/how-us-politicians...
But maybe biased though. Anyone would have a link to some more nuanced statements with officials who do not sounds just like thugs?
The ICC is not under the US control and thus the US sees it as a potentially dangerous organization and the fact that it is in Europe (an influential entity) doesn't make things any better. The US turned a blind eye on the ICC because it used to prosecute its enemies. Now that it's touching its agenda, it makes sense that they do not like it.
Replying to the "dead" comment below (I wish HN killed only spam comments):
> Mainly because i feel the rest of the world lives in a Disneyland like state of fake security that is guaranteed by the United States and never has to contend with the actual reality of the world.
> The actual realities of statehood say the ICC is a joke.
> As for your contention of thuggery.. again, referencing my Disneyland allegation... Thuggery is the basis of statehood and if that makes you uncomfortable, it's because you've been raised in Pax Americana.
> It's really time most countries started paying tribute to the United States, but I do understand the strategic benefit of magnanimity.
I get this viewpoint. Basically, the idea is that humans can only exist as a society of thugs, and everything else is just fairy tales. In that theory, the best possible outcome is achieved when one of the thugs is much more powerfull than all others, thus enforcing "some" order. Therefore, we should all pay tribute to it. I have issues with that theory though. Firstly, I do not believe it. Secondly, even if I did I would consider it a moral duty to still fight it for the small chance it's false. A finally, it does not say what to do in a situation like today when the former bigger thug is becoming weaker and is challenged by the competition. Are we supposed to wait patiently underground the next 20 years until the next contender takes the throne?
There is another theory, according to which human societies _evolve_ as any organism do. It can actually be shown that humans did tame themselves, and became less aggressive/more cooperative after tens of thousands of years of living cooperatively, first in small scale then in larger and larger scale. I take everyone's repulsion against the current state of affairs, or against any sociopathic bahavior for that matter, as another hint of this.
We _did_ evolve out of a primitive condition where there was no conceivable human made law or justice into a society where the rule of law was just a trick, into a condition where the rule of law was desirable, and possibly one day into a condition where the rule of law appears natural.
I believe the cynical viewpoint that you expressed, and that I share sometimes when my mood is low, is actually the fantasy.
If America doesn't do as Israel wants then Israel might side with another country.
And they know they'll be facing allegations themselves for helping to enable the situation.
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When was the last time a head of state was arrested by the ICC?
Yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic was arrested and deported by the government of Yugoslavia after him. Of course, under immense pressure from the west. My preference would be that we tried him under our courts and sent him to jail in Yugoslavia/Serbia.
Now, imposing "justice" obviously only works when you do it to small nations like Yugoslavia or Rwanda. Of course it will not apply to the Israel leader, let alone to somebody from even more powerful nation.
Omar al-Bashir is currently jailed in Sudan, but has not been transferred to ICC custody yet.
Gaddafi was killed before he could be arrested.
> When was the last time a head of state was arrested by the ICC?
It also acts as a deterrent as much of the world will now likely be out of bounds for travel for either the Israelis or Hamas leadership who were issued warrants.
Wow, this took a long time to come after the application for the warrants. 185 days compared to 23 days for Putin's arrest warrant — but then again, one was against the wishes of the USA and the west while the other was at their behest.
I wouldn't say "and the west" without more qualifications. The USA and Germany are solidly behind whatever the Israeli government does. England a bit less so and the rest of "the west" (however you want to define it) is more ambivalent. My point is that if only two countries (the USA and Germany) would make their support more conditional (conditional on the israeli government not commiting war crimes for example), then things could change a lot
Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 (and was responsible for many civilian deaths, including shooting down an airliner), if we count from then, it has taken the ICC a very long time indeed. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court...
And the US has threatened to invade NL if ICC warrants one of them.
So much for the ICC: a banana court.
It felt so real when Milosovic was trialed: now we all know the true nature of these show trials.
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My guess is that it's simply a matter of how difficult it is to prove the issue. The Putin case was very simply because there is an official state program to do things that are considered genocide. Israel is at least pretending they are letting aid in.
Title doesn’t mention any hamas official
I adopted the title of one of the news articles that were also submitted about this. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42204632 for why.
A whole cladde of people here who collectively decided that the politics of the outside and the ugly that came from it does not matter anymore, specialising in the interior design of society with the most horrid weapon being a social ostracizing. The idea that building could pancake under artillery fire from the vacuum just is not part of reality and now papertiger hissy fits from the windows .
Netanyahu I'm not surprised, but Gallant?
EDIT: Asking genuinely on Gallant all I know is he was minister of defence and had a felling out with Netanyahu.
Gallant's position is that there are no innocent people in Gaza and that they should be starved to death. He's said this many times:
https://x.com/KhalilJeries/status/1853905224320372923
"Defense minister [Gallant] announces ‘complete siege’ of Gaza: No power, food or fuel". [1]
[1] https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/defense-ministe...
Being the minister of defense gives you culpability for the military actions the ICC has decided are war crimes, I'd think? But I am not an expert in international law, just don't find it surprising.
He's the minister of defense (not anymore but was at the time). If the allegations are true, then as minister of defense he probably ordered the things in question (or failed to stop them)
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You're not surprised that the prime minister is accused of war crimes, but surprised the minister of defense is?
If Netanyahu and Gallant declared as war criminals, does it also mean whoever helped them during the 2024 is complicit?
Wondering what happens to so many Western leaders who supported Netanyahu unconditionally.
Technically yes, and a number of UK politicians are being mooted for investigation
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/23/criminal-complaint-...
Notably this admission by David Cameron, to knowledge of starvation is rather damning
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-67926799
that is a good question. we've seen folks from the Biden/Harris admin resign over military aid to Israel, and it appears the admin indeed was in violation of US law when said aid was given. could they face criminal charges for complicity? i find it hard to believe they had no idea what was going on.
another question i have regards the future: it appears the US is working on even more aid for Israel, see Bernie's latest attempt to prevent that. now that leadership in Israel has warrants out for them, will the US aid continue? certainly would be a bad look to continue aiding Israel at this point i reckon.
what an absolute tragic mess all around. i'm ashamed of our complicity, and sadly will not be surprised one bit if we continue giving them aid despite it all.
Biden/Harris, Starmer, Scholz and Macron have all been supplying Israel with arms, all whole knowing they are carrying out a genocide. The US has also had boots on the ground, and the UK has flown hundreds of spy and missions over Gaza. Meanwhile, they all give near carbon-copy press statements that read like they came straight from Israeli Hasbara.
They have knowingly supported and aided Israel, and I hope more warrants are forthcoming.
Come to think of it, plenty of journalists and media orgs are complicit too, such as the BBC.
Like the US congress giving an applause and a standing ovation.
I wish. The US government has been an absolute disgrace in how we've handled support of Israel unflinchingly. I guess we didn't write enough sternly written letters while people were being forcibly starved to death.
This leads to a bit of a conundrum for the Netherlands. It is the home of the ICC and officially a big sponsor of international justice. But also the right wing government has a hard on for Israel. I don't think that our esteemed ancestors ever envisioned white people to end up in court...
The leader of the PVV (biggest political party) is going to visit colonial settlers in Israël.
Many immigrants hate Israel.
Official state policy is a two state solution.
The relocation of the Dutch embassy to Jerusalem.
You could make a Netflix TV show about this. May we all live interesting times!
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Hopefully he gets arrested that would fulfill me with joy and laughter. But realistically nobody was and probably will be able to humble Netanyahu, he is a above the ladder psychopath.
dang,
Any strange upvote/downvote activity going on in this thread?
Watching my own replies votes going up and down, makes me think of the "THERE WAS A FIREFIGHT!" GIF: https://tenor.com/search/there-was-a-fire-fight-gifs
E.g. Going to 2 then down to 0, back up, back down and stabilizing again at 0; of course sophisticated coordinated activity will pace itself, even if across real users, as to not "waste their ammo" or be blatantly obvious; makes me wonder if there have been any studies analyzing this.. anywho. Back to life.
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I really don't think this belongs on the front page. It is a highly divisive political issue with strong radicalisation at the edges of any discourse on it.
I have my own strong opinions on it, but arguing it does not in my opinon belong on the front page here.
There are plenty of places you can go and have this discussion in as heated of a version as you prefer.
I disagree. #1 this topic is not as divisive as it may seem. There is consensus as to what is happening and only a minority of the world thinks otherwise.
#2 Israel is a major tech partner and most large tech companies have offices in Tel Aviv. Many startups that we discuss here are headquartered in Tel Aviv. The head of state of the country having an ICC arrest warrant and the situation at large have major consequences to the tech world and thus HackerNews users have a unique lens through which to have discourse. Discourse with an angle that you won't find elsewhere this is discussed.
Legal issues seem to attract plenty of attention on HN. We could see what sort of precedent has been set.
Agree completely. Let’s keep HN focused on the H please.
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Not super meaningful in reality - any country looking to arrest either man should tread carefully.
The American Service-Members' Protection Act authorizes the President of the United States to use "all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any U.S. or allied personnel being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court".
Israel is listed in the act as covered. Any means explicitly includes lethal force, which is why the act is nicknamed the "Invade the Hague" act.
The question here is why is only Israel covered in this act?
Also anti-BDS legislation in finance, regardless of ethical etc. concerns?
The US gives $4bn/year to Israel gratis, and so far $20bn in weapons over the course of this conflict, including advanced weapons like the F35 WITH source code access (which no other F35 partner has) - why?
There have been no investigations of US deaths WRT settler violence, aid workers killed etc. Normally with any US death it's a huge issue.
What does Israel do in return to make it such a favoured country? eg. 20bn in disaster relief aid to Florida would be probably more welcome by US citizens.
The Netherlands said that they would arrest anybody accused. That would be peculiar to see, what would actually happen if anybody of the accused were to travel there.
I'm sure if they try it will go down perfectly well with the rest of the world. It's not like the US has a monopoly on finances or force globally. China and BRICS are waiting in the wings.
It would be a chance to become a hero of humanity that 99% of the world would cheer on...
Honestly, I would so like someone to test that!
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> any country looking to arrest either man should tread carefully.
I'd imagine that if they were detained the IDF would put out quite a bit of effort to get them sprung from prison ... at any cost.
(Imagine if a former US leader was put in prison anywhere but the US).
This shouldn't be flagged.
Why not? How is it “hacker news” at all? It’s just news news.
This does not belong on hacker news
Some stories with political overlap have always been allowed here, just not too many of them. I posted elsewhere in this thread on this point:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42204739
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42204689
Thank you for speaking truth, unlike these alleged world "leaders."
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This will not amount to anything, but it's nice to know we aren't all crazy or anti-semitic for thinking the Israeli state has been acting very poorly in regards to the State of Palestine. Feels a little bit like trying to get organized crime on tax evasion.
What is the point of the ICC? Russia doesn't recognize it, Israel doesn't recognize it and even the United States doesn't recognize it. I am confused at what these warrants even mean.
In this case, to make a political statement against Israel and their leadership.
Note that the only member of Hamas indicted, Mohammed Deif, will never see a day in court. As the ICC already knows, he was killed in an airstrike earlier this year.
In practice these warrants mean that they cannot travel to any country that does recognize the ICC without being arrested, which means they almost certainly won't.
There have been several pundits with opinion on the matter, you’ll find quite a few in any news source (personally I recommend al-Jazeera). The gist of it is that this will have implication mostly around travels of Israeli officials to Europe. We might also see a slow and gradual policy shift in Europe as a result of this.
Ah yes three countries accused of doing really heinous shit do not recognize the legitimacy of the International Criminal Court. How convenient.
Rightfully so, their intentions and actions which have matched, have been clear for the last year. Hopefully the rest of the international community including governments will finally stand together and call them out for the crimes they have been committing. This is hopefully a step to removing arms sales to Israel as well from many countries.
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How is this 'flagged'?
Hacker News Guidelines: Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, or celebrities, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon... If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.
Users flagged it, as is common for the most divisive topics.
I've turned the flags off now, in keeping with HN's standard practices: some (but only some) stories with political overlap are allowed, and in the case of a Major Ongoing Topic (MOT) we prefer the stories that contain Significant New Information (SNI).
[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...
[2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
[3] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...
Here are a bunch of past explanations I've posted about how we approach this topic:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41744331 (Oct 2024)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40586961 (June 2024)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40418881 (May 2024)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39920732 (April 2024)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39618973 (March 2024)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435024 (Feb 2024)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39237176 (Feb 2024)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38947003 (Jan 2024)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38749162 (Dec 2023)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27252765 (May 2021)
There are a significant number of zionist users on this site that immediately flag any comment or article they percieve as anti-israel.
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As an effect though it does isolate these people. Countries may not want to host them lest they get in the middle of something.
Keep in mind these warrants don't expire either. The world might look different 10 years from now.
So i think these types of actions do have consequences even if they are not the same as a domestic court issuing the warrant
Allow me to introduce you to the Hague Invasion Act, signed into law 22 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr...
> The Act gives the president power to use "all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any U.S. or allied personnel being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court".[2]
If you dig a little further, you'll notice that it also applies to "military personnel, elected or appointed officials, and other persons employed by or working on behalf of the government of a NATO member country, a major non-NATO ally including Australia, Egypt, Israel, Japan, Argentina, the Republic of Korea, and New Zealand."
I wanna emphasize: This pre-dates Trump, Biden and Obama. This has been a law for over two decades. It passed both the House and the Senate with very little opposition. Both parties voted in favour of it.
Must be nice to have friends in high places.
Trump is only ever loyal to himself.
He's also inconsistent and prone to change his standpoint on a whim
There's definitely a larger than 0 chance.
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What consequences? Even Trump isn't going to go to war for Netanyahu.
Trump is heavily funded by Zionist extremists, but he isn't one himself. As soon as the ship really starts sinking (which could be induced by a Netanyahu arrest), he will attempt to jump ship and save himself.
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Israeli propaganda is no longer working. Everyone sees what they do.
It's a bit reminiscent of the Bangladesh genocide by Pakistan, to whom the United States also sold weapons and also did nothing to stop hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties.
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The ICC doesn't mention any genocide, so what's the basis for your claim?
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I wonder who you think in the US political sphere would treat them any differently.
The ICC warrant for Putin is similarly worthless. Large influential countries host Putin without impact.
There may be some European countries that Netanyahu will no longer be able to visit, but the impact will not be large.
I'm wondering what power does the ICC have to carry out its sentencing if the US chooses to disagree with it?
Same with The Hague court, where the US said its soldiers would be imune from standing trial for crimes.
So if these international courts are only allowed selective enforcement, what's the point of their existence? To only prosecute people the US doesn't choose to protect? Then what's the line between good guys and bad guys?
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Indeed. That Israel has been allowed to operate outside the bounds of international law and human rights will be studied for generations.
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I’m out of the loop, why do you say this?
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Such a ridiculous claim. Anyone against ICC is not a good guy.
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Boy it almost seems like we should look at what factors (apartheid state, oppression, etc.) led to the formation of Hamas
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Because US and European countries very directly supports Israel in this case. In the other cases you refer to they are conflicts independent of western countries or at least the western influences are more indirect.
Yeah, by comparison the total coverage of the ongoing devastating civil wars in Sudan, Yemen, Myanmar and Haiti is miniscule.
I guess to play devil's advocate, the US is much more involved in Palestine via its essentially unconditional military support for Israel, so it makes sense for the American left to make noise because in theory they could influence things.
Our tax money is funding these atrocities. I felt the same way about the genocide in Yemen.
>Around the world, countless marginalized groups face equally dire or even worse conditions and would welcome similar support from these people
I don't think this is true. The majority of people dying of or suffering from starvation on earth right now are in Gaza.
>Yet, these so-called human rights advocates remain willfully ignorant of anyone or anything happening outside of the US and the Israel/Palestine conlflict.
You have blinders on if you think this is the case.
>Given this, how can anyone take these protesters seriously when they exhibit a groupthink mentality, lacking self-awareness or critical thinking, and behaving more like zombies than independent thinkers?
I'd rather you didn't take us seriously if you're not going to fully understand our goals or reasons for our beliefs.
Might be because we're funding this genocide ourselves...
This is textbook whataboutism. I live in the UK. I'm outraged by how much time/money is spent on Israel and Ukraine issues than our own. Similar to yourself, I have to wonder why UK govt chose to help one side with weapons in these specific conflicts. The difference here is of course, protestors are there on their own free will (for the most part, I guess?), whilst I don't have a say in how my tax money is being used.
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They are right, though, aren’t they? We came up with these regulations and international agreements for a reason.
If they ignore war crimes, their authority loses meaning, but if they pass judgment that we know is going to be completely ignored, their authority also loses meaning. Unless the powers that be decide to honor their word, it’s all pointless. What’s next?
This feels like the end of the league of nations.
Measures like this seem pretty toothless, so I'm not sure what impact you're expecting
It isn't scary at all. I for one, would much prefer to live in a world where war crimes and acts of genocide are appropriately called out. The fact this hasn't come sooner is the scary thing.
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Because nobody is invading Israel. Nobody's declaring war.
The whole point of international law is to hold citizens of sovereign nations accountable, without having to go to war to achieve it.
Nobody has legal authority to go into Israel to seize Netanyahu. But now he knows that if he tries to travel to Europe, he will be seized upon entry. That's not war, that's simply apprehending someone who there is an arrest warrant out for.
Because a declaration of war is different to stating that a country committed war crimes.
ICC is not a UN organ: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court
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War at its core is not a murder contest. You have to be strategic and you have to deal with the reality of trying to govern any conquered subjects which historically hasn't been very successful in the long term. In a globally connected world, you have to deal with the rest of the planet reacting to your actions.
That's not even touching on concepts like human rights and international law.
I generally agree with this take. The big problem with it is that the current and likely future israeli administrion(s) have as one of their largest goals the annexation of the west bank, not because of security but because they truly believe god gave them that land. IMO there is little reason to believe israelis will ever allow the palestinians full sovereignty in the west bank. So whats on the table for them in your situation? Probably giving up even more land in the west bank and the fear that israel can start a war to annex even more of it any time the israeli right wins an election. Which gets at the heart of the issue here, neither side has any reason to believe the other is negotiating in good faith, so negations can never really begin.
Ive spent a decent amount of time in Israel and my observation is that the prospect for peace is incredibly dim.
Are you asking why 5 million people don't just accept total subjugation to Israel and renounce all desire for self-determination as a nation? Let themselves be subjugated to permanent occupation and political persecution? All in all to a state that rejects Palestinian right to ever try Israelis for any and all crimes they do to them, including war crimes and crimes against humanity? (that's what even several EU states effectively argued before ICC, when challenging the jurisdiction of the court)
Israel claims there will be no Palestinian state ever, because it's a percieved threat to Israel security. Knesset resolution claiming that was passed this year. And by that, for Israelis that's poof "no self-determination for 5 mil. people". No loss for Israelis, I guess in that. They'll not even let them be citizens of Israel, because democracy doesn't mean much to Israel. Israel has to be a Jewish state, not like half Jewish half Arab and soon majority arab looking at demographic growth...
I don't know? Maybe they really don't want this, and don't know how to get out of that situation created by Jews and their European "allies" back in first half of last century in any other way.
And please don't tell me you're presuming Israel to be the innocent and honest party in all this.
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Um. I would take the hand-wringing a little more seriously if it were not for the fact that Israeli army is not exactly known for being super adherent to rules of engagement you suggest[1]. Please do note that this is US media saying this, which is already doing what it can to cover for Israel with oh so familiar talking points.
<< To say that to attack them after they do that is to invite prosecution is risable.
Some of us do take issue with indiscriminately bombing a hospital to get one 'bad guy' or even ten 'bad guys'. Maybe it was more excusable when technology was less.. accurate, but it is very hard to argue that point when the country bombing said hospital is able to surgically explode pagers in Lebanon[2]. And Israel can't even take over a small enclave it almost completely cut off from the rest of the world?
That is risable. And all this after massive US support both in blood in treasury.
[1]https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/24/middleeast/palestinians-human... [2]https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz04m913m49o
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Accordingly, they issued similar warrants for (what's left of) Hamas leadership on the same day.
https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-state-palestine-icc-p...
> Or that most aid is going through Israel itself because Egypt still has a blockade against Gaza.
Israel very much prefers it that way. It's a very significant piece of leverage for them.
They signed a treaty in 2007 requiring Israeli authorization of anything crossing the Egyptian crossings, in fact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_Border_Crossing
Israeli occupied it in May, too. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-07/israel-ra...
Two parties can commit the same crime.
I’m sorry but this brazenly wrong and a form of propaganda; you need to provide evidence for your claims. Hamas-employed Gaza police shoot at gangs that rob the aid containers with the implicit protection of Israel. Many videos have been posted spuriously claiming without any evidence that the individuals highjackimg the aid “are Hamas” when all documented evidence points to the very opposite.
Just two days ago: Gangs looting Gaza aid operate in areas under Israeli control, aid groups say
“Officials said criminal looting has become the greatest impediment to distributing aid in the southern half of Gaza, home to the vast majority of displaced Palestinians. Armed bands of men have killed, beaten and kidnapped aid truck drivers in the area around Israel’s Kerem Shalom crossing, the main entry point into Gaza’s south, aid workers and transport companies said. The thieves, who have run cigarette-smuggling operations throughout this year but are now also stealing food and other supplies, are tied to local crime families, residents say. The gangs are described by observers as rivals of Hamas and, in some cases, they have been targeted by remnants of Hamas’s security forces in other parts of the enclave.”
‘An internal United Nations memo obtained by The Washington Post concluded last month that the gangs “may be benefiting from a passive if not active benevolence” or “protection” from the Israel Defense Forces. One gang leader, the memo said, established a “military like compound” in an area “restricted, controlled and patrolled by the IDF.”’
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/11/18/gaza-looting...
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> Netanyahu is viewed as the messiah of the Jewish people
I think there was a strong urge to portray him as the second coming of King David (the slayer of Goliath) after the assassinations of (other war criminals) Deif, Haniyeh, Nasrallah, Saifeddine, and Sinwar within 6 months of each other.
> something about rebuilding a temple in Jerusalem
No temple yet, but there's a valid religious claim should they choose to build one on the Rock. The main mosque is actually a few hundred meters removed from the Rock.
> until he achieves the eradication of the Palestinian people he will not rest
Think the political apparatus strives to control the demographics (for its own survival)? Eradication is one mechanism, but at 7 million Palestinians, they'd need to summon a World War esque scenario to pull it off. So, unlikely?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Israel
Numerous IDF soldiers and settlers have been photographed wearing or displaying the shape of Greater Israel - a plan to seize land and expand Israel into almost every one of its neighbors territories. Tim Walz even let slip in the debate that "expansion" was a key goal of US support.
To speak only to the factual claims and not any of your conclusions: Biblical Israel did not include any part of Egypt, nor does it contain all of Lebanon. It is concerning that you would claim this when the biblical map of Israel is a Google search away.
Speaking as someone within the Jewish community, absolutely no one views Netanyahu as the messiah. You will find all sorts and views that are for or against, but none that he is some messiah. (I'm sure you could find some 5 cranks who do; you could also find 5 Christian cranks who believe the earth is flat. In that case it would never even occur to you to say that Christians believe the earth is flat.)
The belief is that the temple will be rebuilt when the messiah comes. It has not, which is also something you could have googled. There is a tiny segment who wishes to make that happen now. The overwhelming majority see this as something that will happen in messianic times, not an instruction manual for the present.
If you are this misinformed on points that are easily looked up I strongly suggest you seek information outside of whatever echo chamber you currently find yourself in.
I support these warrants.
I m afraid this fruitless pursuit will distract from the effort to stop the cleansing, which has to be diplomatic and international
So you want to say that the reason for _not_ doing this is: it will distract from the effort to stop the cleansing.
Would that be the same as saying that we shouldn't issue a warrant against a school shooter because it wouldn't stop the shooting? Would it distract from gun laws?
Maybe not the best analogy, but I know that I cannot say for certain whether it will negatively or positively affect the effort. It might positively affect if this makes (especially EU) countries put more pressure on Israel.
What effort?
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What cleansing?
I don’t get why Israel waged war on Gaza instead of just going for the guy who ordered the attack. Any thoughts?
The guy is the Hamas leader who was killed recently? How would Israel get him? Special forces raid? He could hide anywhere in Gaza. And why would Israel want to do a decapitation instead of destroying the hostile organization? Even assuming Israel doesn't want to annex territory that seems like expecting the US to react to 9/11 by sending the Navy Seals after Bin Laden and stop it at that.
The Gaza invasion was never about the hostages. If Israel cared about the hostages they wouldn't have indiscriminately bombed the entire territory. The hostages are dead, and demanding the impossible return of people they killed is simply a pretext:
They want land expansion and the total ethnic cleansing of Palestine. Look up 'Greater Israel'. Tim Walz accidentally let it slip during a debate that this is the goal of the US empires support.
Oct. 7 was incredibly useful for Israel give it the casus belli to destroy resistance and settle Gaza. Lebanon will be the cherry on top.
Why kill one guy when you can kill all resistance and (future possible) resistance and tada you have a bunch of land and can expand your borders.
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This is exciting. Is there precedence for this? What should we expect?
Have they issued any warrants for Hamas leaders for the 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel?
they have, at the same time, issued a warrant for Mohammed Diab Ibrahim Al-Masri, who is (or was) the commander of the armed part of Hamas.
https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-state-palestine-icc-p...
Yes, for those that are still alive, that is indeed the case.
Yes. Read the posts
Isolating Netanyahu like this will only lead to a hardening of the Israeli position because he now truly has nothing to lose