I just don't get the obsession with eliminating the numpad. There are tons of interesting looking and innovative keyboards now and they all insist on making them as cramped as possible.
It makes sense on a laptop. But, if I already need to have a clear place on my desk for the keyboard and mouse, I'd rather just use an extra 2 inches to have the full size keyboard with the numpad and arrow keys that are not crammed against the rest of the keyboard.
I agree. I really like the Keydous NJ98 CP he V2 something that's full sized with hall effect, BUT ut also is compatible with regular mechanical switches. It really should be a standard.
Same. I use my numpad constantly - Excel, programming, VoIP, calc, etc.
I don't use the number row above my keyboard except on rare occasions or to type the shifted characters. If I need to quickly type a number without looking, the numpad is the only way to do that (for me).
I tried a friends "compact" gaming keyboard, and then to the right of his keyboard was a separate "macro" keyboard which was basically just a numpad... so why not just have a numpad?
I've thought like this before but it's nice having a smaller keyboard, you can keep your hands closer together which is nice and unless you’re doing a lot of accounting, you don't really regularly use the numpad. Best configuration I've found is to have a separate numpad/macro keypad that you can keep off to the side on your desk.
I strongly recommend learning to mouse with your nondominant hand, at least for tasks that don’t require a ton of precision. Saved me a ton of shoulder pain.
Or use a touchscreen in combo with the mouse -- touch for simple button pushing or gestures. Works great on my laptop, I use the trackpoint stick, trackpad, and touchscreen for various tasks whichever one makes the most sense at the moment.
I don't get the tiny keyboard obsession either, I've got a tenkeyless so no numpad but an area for arrow keys, page up/down etc. and it's a good compromise. For me, the numpad would conflict with what I already put next to my keyboard--my trackpad.
I don't like moving across the numerical keypad area with my right hand every time I switch from typing to mousing. That extra few inches adds up over a long coding session.
Interesting, their configuration tool runs in browser and they explicitly mention linux; I don't have much experience with gaming keyboards but the only one I bought in the past had some windows-only configuration software and was a bit of a pain.
(this keyboard does not appear to be QMK-based, but for the record) any keyboard that runs QMK (an open-source firmware for keyboards) will offer the same experience. web-based configurator and full linux support.
Configuration stored _on the device_ and not needing the software to autorun every time you reboot to get your settings back, should really be a no-brainer. There's unfortunately enough gaming keyboards and mice out there who haven't got this yet.
I'd love to see some standard HID feedback channel for interactive keyboard LED control. My previous Logitech keyboard had some fun interactions with Factorio that I miss. Things like flashing a specific letter or using the backlighting to show a progress bar.
Many mechanical keyboards use firmware works with Web Apps that use WebUSB/WebHID APIs to allow easy cross-platform configuration. It's a welcome change over dedicated desktop software for your keyboard. All the configuration is stored and behavior is managed on the keyboard itself. This doesn't get you cool things like keyboard LED interactivity, but I can live without that.
I'm usually ambivalent about keyboards but... that one looks pretty sick. I'm still using a Filco Majestouch for my gaming / day to day use but it's at the end of its lifetime, some buttons need to "warm up" a bit before they register nowadays.
I bought a magnetic keyboard recommended on HN back in 2019. I was underwhelmed by it. Mostly because it was the Keystone and is still listed as "under production" on Kickstarter. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/lekashman/keystone-the-... . I still hold out on hope that one day, it will magically arrive.
> An Open Source Analog Keyboard with Adaptive Typing AI.
So the keyboard learns your current mistakes and fixes them in the future. This sounds excellent except once you get used to having your mistakes fixed for you, you become dependent to this type of keyboard. Personally I'm not ready for AI keyboards, I like the control I have over what I type, mistakes and all.
I hope it works out for you and get your moneys worth... How much did you pay for yours?
Many of the reasons for wanting a hall-effect keyboard are reasons I wouldn't want one, others I find no value in. I feel like the only people who would enjoy a hall effect keyboard are people using the tactile-less cherry red switches, which is only small fraction of keyboard users
If the tactile feedback both existed and was adjustable, and didn't cost more than like 5-10% over a mechanical switch, it might take off more. But for now as neat as it is, it feels extremely niche. If someone wants different activation pressures and distances, they can buy different mechanical switches and would be missing out on basically nothing.
This is because sites like this shove ads in every conceivable whitespace on the page, so you have ads/videos/images and JavaScript loading and executing from all corners of the internet. What was once a page that was supposed to give you text and images is now executing all kinds of shit you don't want or need, burning up your CPU and battery and giving you a truly horrible, janky experience even on newer phones or desktops. If you visit these sites on older phones, it's truly excruciating. All for some text of what could have been a comment on a site like this, or a blog post on a statically-hosted site which costs next to nothing to run.
Here was my experience on an M1 Mac Mini with 16GB of RAM, in Safari with no extensions:
I can't load the page at all without the extensions. On AdGuard I'm using only the content blocker filters that don't have access to the page itself, not the advanced filter which does.
The AdGuard content blocker is my favorite for Safari even on desktop. I can't imagine browsing without it enabled.
I feel you there. And my recent move was into a city, too, that ended up having even less options than my previous suburban abode. They never laid down fiber here and still have no plans to.
Incentivizing publishers to load massive amounts of third party JavaScript was an industry mistake and the people who write JavaScript for ads are profoundly irresponsible and unprofessional.
Which is why i block all 3rd party js by default. If your website requires 3rd party js and it is not essential for me to really visit it, most prob i am just gonna close it.
I recently started using Firefox Focus enabled as an extension in iOS Safari, and it works great as an ad blocker. The op site loads for me. Was a hn rec from another thread I think.
It's not even that good of an article. I tried to understand what Hall Effect is and what its advantages are, but it was so vague, beating around the bush and forwarding you to other articles on their site, that I gave up and searched on the YT mechanical keyboards channels instead.
Here's a nice intro review of a Hall Effect keyboard, from Switch and Click, which explains its features and differences compared to a normal switch keyboard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNANUquoXOA
I tried to understand what Hall Effect is and what its advantages are, but it was so vague, beating around the bush and forwarding you to other articles on their site, that I gave up and searched on the YT mechanical keyboards channels instead.
Hall effect switches have been used in model railroading for a couple of generations now. Very often to stop and start engines in hard-to-reach places with a wand.
Agreed. Also happened to me on this page and I’ve seen it become more common. I wonder if there is a common gaming-related ad service which does this since it feels like the EXACT behavior I see on IGN.
iOS is genuinely terrible. I appreciate the point that so is web design for many sites, but even if you ignore that, 97% of bugs on our product with no cookies, ads, analytics etc come from iOS. My favourite time burner right now is when apple pushed for new viewport units and then don't respect them. Their address bar animated design is atrocious.
Does anyone have experience if these provide tactile feedback?
There’s lots of discussion about the actuation point, but is there a “click” feel?
I’ve had a lot of wrist strain issues over the last 20 years. I tried many “ergonomic” keyboard layouts, but ultimately switching to a standard ikcb CD108 with Cherry MX brown fixed my issue. The click stops me from mashing the keys too hard, which seems to be the primary root cause (for me).
You can't easially do adjustable actuation points and a click feel so I doubt it. They can put a click in someplace, but that is a mechanical operation which means either it is fixed at the factory or you need to take a screwdriver (or something) to each key to adjust. The nice thing about hall effect switches is you can choose the actuation point(s!) in software making it quick and easy to change until you find what works, but software cannot adjust a mechanical click.
I can think of a couple ways to adjust a mechanic click from software. You could put gears and a stepper motor in the keyboard to adjust where the click is (you of course need to design a click mechanism as the keys don't have it) - this would be complex, fragile, and expensive (likely large as well). You could put a coil under each switch and fire that when the key actuates to provide a force change. There are probably others. I have no idea how practical anything is, but I wouldn't discourage anyone from trying it if you are interested - it sounds like a fun project (of the type I don't have time for)
This article is about GAMING keyboards. Magnetic keyboards seems to offer some nice features gamers will use. However for general typing a traditional mechanical keyboard may well be better: do not feel bad about using Cherry MX browns if they work for you (I use them myself, but I'm trying to figure out if my budget allows for a model F) - the only downside is in competitive games you may lose to someone who has a keyboard that can do things yours cannot.
Maybe, might be worth a shot. It won't be as easy on a phone because you need to feel the feedback only in the key your pressed and not all the other keys your fingers might be one (potentially starting to press but not yet activated).
Something else for someone who has time to work on. Have fun.
Do you prefer a click or a quiet tactile bump? The MX browns you describe are a light quiet tactile switch.
Most of these Hall effect keyboards are all running linear switches - no tactility whatsoever. I’ve seen a handful of switches which are HE and tactile, but I’ve not tried them. Glorious Panda HE are a notable model - if the name is consistent with their past efforts these should be significantly more tactile than the MX Browns you currently use.
I had optical "clicky" switches in my Wooting One TKL, so it is possible. In hindsight I would not go for the clicky or even tactile ones again, but use linear switches, because the great thing about optical and HE switches is that you can select the actuation point to your own typing style, which of course is not possible with switches that provide mechanical feedback.
Analogue controls are indeed an awesome concept for a keyboard. Has anyone shipped any "revolutionary" default setups, e.g., from tiny things like making your pinky suffer less by having lower actuation point to making shallow actuation type lowercase and deeper actuation type uppercase or longer holds on arrow keys accelerating the movement?
Pity, though, the progress is still stalled on the actual layout - the ergonomic splits and other improvements are still a tiny niche
Would be a fun way to implement a modal text editor. Full press for normal mode, light press for insert mode. Could be unintentionally hilarious though.
I wonder if with a sufficiently fast ADC measuring each switch's voltage transition, you might be able to do velocity detection with normal switches? I guess might need an ADC wired to each switch rather than row/column matrix scan.
No, not with any useful degree of granularity. The electrical contacts aren't directly driven by the mechanical switch, they mostly rely on their own spring tension to make the connection. The mechanical part simply separates them.
By measuring contact bounce, you can probably detect the difference between fast and slow presses, but not much more. Maybe three or four levels total
HE sensors measure distance, if you measure often enough get velocity out of that. Linear switches should be able to do the same thing (I know almost nothing about linear switches so I might be wrong)
Edit: HE sensors not switches. HE naturally measures distance, but there are switches that have electronics that provide an on/off signal thus making the term switch not useful. If you buy a HE switch make sure you know which style you are getting.
I guess you'd record the curve of the first transition, and the after the debounce period has elapsed you'd use that curve to emit the appropriate key signal. Or alternatively you could use the whole analogue sequence as input for the key detection (assuming no limits on compute power etc). Neural net powered keystrokes!
Would love to have a ergonomic hall effect keyboard!
I daily drive the Moonlander, both for work and gaming, and it's honestly really good. Would be awesome to get a similar keyboard but with magnetic keys.
Unlikely, at least in the sense being discussed here.
A Hall effect sensor works by running a constant current in one direction while measuring the potential difference in a different axis. The keyboard’s PCB needs to be able to register a range of values, not simply binary on-off. Regular keyboards aren’t equipped to do that.
Typically in an HE keyboard, the sensors are mounted to the PCB. The “switch” itself is just a neodymium magnet at the end of a POM stem, in a polycarbonate housing with a spring.
There are other kinds of magnetic switch that have historically been used in keyboards – e.g. Fujitsu used reed switches in the 70s – and in theory you could probably build them into a Cherry MX-compatible package. But they wouldn’t provide many of the benefits of HE keyboards, besides smoothness and reliability, and I’m not aware of anyone doing it.
Reading this brought something to my mind that I had not yet considered. With the rise in popularity of esports, we're getting to a strange place where there is very professional gear for playing games, that is specifically suited to the high intensity, quick reactions of professional athlete. Whether you think that is an appropriate term is not an issue, people are getting paid for this and they play at a much different level that most of us plebes do.
But then you have people who play casually--and let me be clear here, even if you are very good and only play ranked competitive matches, if it's not your job, you're who I'm talking about--who get this same gear. They deck themselves out like the pros for what is, essentially, a hobby. Is that weird? I don't know. People who head out to the local basketball court typically go with only a Spalding they bought at Walmart. Folks who play a little footy on the weekends might buy shin guards, but otherwise just head out to a field.
I don't know where I'm really going with all this, it just seems odd that a person would say one should buy a keyboard that allows for 1mm actuation, when the vast, vast majority of game players wouldn't even be able to tell the difference.
There are tons of sports where the amateurs end up buying top of the line gear.
People will spend thousands to ride the same bikes the Tour de France riders do. You can spend crazy amounts on basketball shoes, sweat wicking synthetic shirts and all sorts of other gear that LeBron uses.
If there is a sport that requires buying specialized equipment, there are people buying stuff that is completely unnecessary for their use case.
If you like mechanical keyboards with relatively light to mid-weight linear switches, you’ll probably enjoy Hall effect switches.
Being contactless, they’re extremely smooth, quiet and reliable, and being able to set the actuation point exactly where you want it is a very nice bonus.
I’ve been using a Monsgeek M1 HE (I think probably still the cheapest option on the market, even though it’s an incredibly solid block of aluminium) since the summer, mostly just for coding, and for me it’s the best keyboard I’ve ever used.
If your preference is for tactile/clicky switches, or heavier linear switches that you hit hard enough to bottom out, or you’re perfectly happy with any old membrane keyboard, it’s probably not worth the expense.
The question that should have been answered, but wasn't.
Since booleans default to false, I would say: no.
More seriously, if you assign different meanings to a key relating to how deep it gets pressed, it will result in lots of key misses I suppose. You will have to develop a piano feel, but for a piano there is a correlation with loudness.
So if you define a soft action for a gentle press on space, and a "stronger" action for a deep press on space, maybe you can do useful things without fucking up your typing.
Things like: going to
start of word, (soft)
start of sentence (medium)
column 0 (hard)
But i am a bit wary about how precise and consistent the board will be. But if it works, it might save on key combinations to learn.
I got one a couple months ago, I _really_ enjoy typing on it and use it for programming. Perhaps I just never found the right mechanical keyboard, but it feels like my fingers just glide over it when typing.
There's no tactile feedback when the switch activates, but you can adjust the actuation point of the switch to where it feels comfortable to you. I've set mine to be just about as sensitive as possible.
Do you fully press (or mostly fully press) your keys when you type? If so, then no, Hall Effect keyboards probably aren't going to get you anything a mechanical keyboard won't. The headline feature is extremely high sensitivity, i.e. you barely have to tap the key for it to register.
To me, the headline feature is full control of sensitivity, in real-time if you want.
A standard mechanical keyboard has a fixed actuation point. If you want to change that you need to replace the switches. A Hall-Effect keyboard allows you to tune the actuation point exactly where you like. You can also tune the actuation and reset points independently and even in relation to each other. That allows you to have a reset on a slight raise of the finger without having to raise past as absolute point in travel.
As an example of how the analog nature of HE keyboard could be useful, you could (in theory) set it up so that key repeat rate is adjusted based on how far past actuation you have the key. So, if I press harder the key repeats faster. Sure, you can solve the same problem with navigation shortcuts, but the point is that having a keyboard that captures an analog value for each key opens a wide range of possible use cases. I'm personally ecstatic that they are finally releasing Low-Profile HE keyboards.
I think that's what I like most about typing on a HE keyboard, you don't have to press the key all the way into the backstop, so there's less impact on your fingers.
I currently run a Keychron K15 Pro and can easily remap my volume scroll as a mouse scroll (U/D or L/R or any combo). I can even have it on a different layer so it's volume control most of the time. In fact, I use the knob to control keyboard LED brightness on a secondary layer.
I've never heard the term "magnetic keyboard" before. They're called hall-effect keyboards...
For those not in the know, hall-effect key switches can tell the analog position of each key, rather than only whether it's pressed or not as in traditional key switches.
Right, but the hall effect sensor measures the strength of a magnetic field.
The key/switch has a little magnet on the stem and the hall effect sensor is measuring the strength of the magnetic field as the magnet moves up/further & down/closer to the sensor.
> Right, but the hall effect sensor measures the strength of a magnetic field.
Yes I recognize that. But I've seen hall-effect keyboard many, many times and magnetic keyboard never (before this post). I guess some company decided to call their keyboard a magnetic keyboard and now a specific subset of people think they're all called that - even though they've been called hall-effect keyboards since their inception.
I don’t know the marketing reasons behind hall effect keyboard v/s magnetic keyboard, but a technical reason for calling it magnetic keyboard is that they are probably not actually using hall effect sensors.
Hall effect sensor is commonly used to refer to any magnetic field sensor but there are many others types. Given the size of the keys I suspect they are actually MEMS Lorrentz force sensors, so “magnetic keyboard” might be more correct.
There is (or was?) a Dutch keyboard maker called Wooting who has been offering alternative switches like optical and hall effect switches for a few years. I owned their Wooting One TKL and it was really nice. They always had issues with availability, and AFAIK they never offered a 70% HE keyboard, so I ended up with a Keychron with yellow mechanical switches. I still think those optical or HE switches are the best, and it was a bit sad to see that small Dutch company not getting their products out of the door.
Edit: Thanks for the corrections in the comments below.
Wooting is still around and still makes HE keyboards. They offer 60% and 80%, but not 70% models.
Perhaps I'm just unaware, but I thought Wooting was the company behind HE keyboards becoming a commercial product. When they did their first HE keyboard I certainly didn't see any other HE keyboards on the market. I would still be using Wooting if they had a Low-profile HE version.
It seems that while I've been not paying attention, HE keyboards have become a thing finally and, more importantly, Low-Profile HE keyboards are now a thing. This makes me super happy as I only use LP keyboards now days. I love my Keychron K15 Pro!
Yeah, they have a 80% HE keyboard on their website, but again only for preorder. I really wish for them that they can achieve the delivery by mid of December, but personally I will only consider buying one once they actually have it in stock.
I play single-player games from time-to-time and avoid multiplayer games as much as possible.
Just out of curiosity, is there some vetting process for keyboards that qualifies them as "not cheating"? Any hardware advances in input/output devices could be considered an unfair advantage, right? If my keyboard is a simple, non-smart one with significantly lower latency than your keyboard, does that mean I'm cheating? At some point you have to draw a line and say 'this is acceptable' and 'that is not', who draws the line? Does the line move? When does it move?
Cheating is going outside the defined rules of a game. If a specific game calls out that macros of any kind are forbidden, then great, that means some of the features of modern keyboards are cheating. Now, how do you police that? Pro-level competitive players are likely to be so fast and coordinated as to be close to indistinguishable from a well configured macro. Really, if you want to have limits on input devices, you need to codify that into the game, not say any advances in keyboard design are cheating. If using a macro lets a player be better than everyone else, limit the input capability to the level that is considered fair and don't worry about what keyboard someone is using. Otherwise, it's like complaining about someone using expensive high-refresh-rate gear and calling them a cheater.
If you can't be detected then it can't be illegal. That makes the discussion of whether or not it's cheating immaterial.
What you're describing in your second paragraph is how good anticheat works. It is inevitable and unfortunate (from the perspective of GP) that it must be tuned to near-olympic performance as the cap (or you risk punishing people who are just good, which is a really bad idea).
edit: Of course, once you go down this rabbithole you start realising that olympic level performance is a freak accident of genetics, which is like having your own little biological "cheat". It makes you categorically better than other people at specific things. We return to the statement that figuring out whether that's cheating is immaterial. To my mind it's also a waste of time.
I just don't get the obsession with eliminating the numpad. There are tons of interesting looking and innovative keyboards now and they all insist on making them as cramped as possible.
It makes sense on a laptop. But, if I already need to have a clear place on my desk for the keyboard and mouse, I'd rather just use an extra 2 inches to have the full size keyboard with the numpad and arrow keys that are not crammed against the rest of the keyboard.
I agree. I really like the Keydous NJ98 CP he V2 something that's full sized with hall effect, BUT ut also is compatible with regular mechanical switches. It really should be a standard.
I want the option of having the numpad at the left side of the keyboard.
The asymmetric nature of having it at the right side drives me crazy.
I want my hands at the middle of the keyboard, not cramped to the left side, with so much space at the right, for keys I almost never use.
Having said that, my current keyboard has no numpad.
Same. I use my numpad constantly - Excel, programming, VoIP, calc, etc.
I don't use the number row above my keyboard except on rare occasions or to type the shifted characters. If I need to quickly type a number without looking, the numpad is the only way to do that (for me).
I tried a friends "compact" gaming keyboard, and then to the right of his keyboard was a separate "macro" keyboard which was basically just a numpad... so why not just have a numpad?
I want a separate numpad on the far side of the mouse (or left side of the desk) for RSI reasons.
I've thought like this before but it's nice having a smaller keyboard, you can keep your hands closer together which is nice and unless you’re doing a lot of accounting, you don't really regularly use the numpad. Best configuration I've found is to have a separate numpad/macro keypad that you can keep off to the side on your desk.
If you're right handed and use the mouse right handed, the increase in angle of your right arm is a lot harder on your shoulder over time.
I strongly recommend learning to mouse with your nondominant hand, at least for tasks that don’t require a ton of precision. Saved me a ton of shoulder pain.
Or use a touchscreen in combo with the mouse -- touch for simple button pushing or gestures. Works great on my laptop, I use the trackpoint stick, trackpad, and touchscreen for various tasks whichever one makes the most sense at the moment.
What's especially bad is those that remove FN keys. I'm convinced that anybody that's okay with that doesn't use keyboard shortcuts very often.
I don't get the tiny keyboard obsession either, I've got a tenkeyless so no numpad but an area for arrow keys, page up/down etc. and it's a good compromise. For me, the numpad would conflict with what I already put next to my keyboard--my trackpad.
Using Razer as an example, the full size keyboard is 6 inches wider than a 60%, and 3.5 inches larger than the 80%.
You said 2 inches but it’s actually half the width of a 13” laptop.
I can fit a compact keyboard and a trackpad in the size of a normal keyboard.
I don't like moving across the numerical keypad area with my right hand every time I switch from typing to mousing. That extra few inches adds up over a long coding session.
if you have your left hand on WSAD and right hand on the mouse then having the numpad in the way makes the sitting posture less natural
that's the reason
For anyone wondering, this is the keyboard in the image at the top of the article: https://nuphy.com/collections/he-keyboards/products/nuphy-fi...
I was intrigued by the design so I wanted to share.
Interesting, their configuration tool runs in browser and they explicitly mention linux; I don't have much experience with gaming keyboards but the only one I bought in the past had some windows-only configuration software and was a bit of a pain.
(this keyboard does not appear to be QMK-based, but for the record) any keyboard that runs QMK (an open-source firmware for keyboards) will offer the same experience. web-based configurator and full linux support.
Nuphy's other keyboards, such as the Air v2 (which I own and use), are QMK based. It's just the hall effect keyboards that aren't.
I think mean to say QMK?
This is why WebUSB/WebBT is a good thing, you can build configuration tools that run anywhere and are easily ported offline or replicated.
Configuration stored _on the device_ and not needing the software to autorun every time you reboot to get your settings back, should really be a no-brainer. There's unfortunately enough gaming keyboards and mice out there who haven't got this yet.
I'd love to see some standard HID feedback channel for interactive keyboard LED control. My previous Logitech keyboard had some fun interactions with Factorio that I miss. Things like flashing a specific letter or using the backlighting to show a progress bar.
Many mechanical keyboards use firmware works with Web Apps that use WebUSB/WebHID APIs to allow easy cross-platform configuration. It's a welcome change over dedicated desktop software for your keyboard. All the configuration is stored and behavior is managed on the keyboard itself. This doesn't get you cool things like keyboard LED interactivity, but I can live without that.
I'm usually ambivalent about keyboards but... that one looks pretty sick. I'm still using a Filco Majestouch for my gaming / day to day use but it's at the end of its lifetime, some buttons need to "warm up" a bit before they register nowadays.
I bought a magnetic keyboard recommended on HN back in 2019. I was underwhelmed by it. Mostly because it was the Keystone and is still listed as "under production" on Kickstarter. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/lekashman/keystone-the-... . I still hold out on hope that one day, it will magically arrive.
> An Open Source Analog Keyboard with Adaptive Typing AI.
So the keyboard learns your current mistakes and fixes them in the future. This sounds excellent except once you get used to having your mistakes fixed for you, you become dependent to this type of keyboard. Personally I'm not ready for AI keyboards, I like the control I have over what I type, mistakes and all.
I hope it works out for you and get your moneys worth... How much did you pay for yours?
I agree, I was primarily attracted to the modularity and magnetic features. Luckily, only $150 of 2019 money.
Many of the reasons for wanting a hall-effect keyboard are reasons I wouldn't want one, others I find no value in. I feel like the only people who would enjoy a hall effect keyboard are people using the tactile-less cherry red switches, which is only small fraction of keyboard users
If the tactile feedback both existed and was adjustable, and didn't cost more than like 5-10% over a mechanical switch, it might take off more. But for now as neat as it is, it feels extremely niche. If someone wants different activation pressures and distances, they can buy different mechanical switches and would be missing out on basically nothing.
I tried reading this article with genuine interest but the page crashed for me on iOS :(
This seems to be happening more often in the back half of 2024. IGN crashes nearly every page view for me these days.
This is because sites like this shove ads in every conceivable whitespace on the page, so you have ads/videos/images and JavaScript loading and executing from all corners of the internet. What was once a page that was supposed to give you text and images is now executing all kinds of shit you don't want or need, burning up your CPU and battery and giving you a truly horrible, janky experience even on newer phones or desktops. If you visit these sites on older phones, it's truly excruciating. All for some text of what could have been a comment on a site like this, or a blog post on a statically-hosted site which costs next to nothing to run.
Here was my experience on an M1 Mac Mini with 16GB of RAM, in Safari with no extensions:
https://imgur.com/RDv2n7Z
This is why I have absolutely zero qualms with using an ad blocker to the fullest extent I can.
I hate what these people do to computers.
Here it is on an iPhone 13 mini running the latest iOS with AdGuard content blocker and Stop The Madness Pro extensions enabled:
https://imgur.com/a/aBBvVum
I can't load the page at all without the extensions. On AdGuard I'm using only the content blocker filters that don't have access to the page itself, not the advanced filter which does.
The AdGuard content blocker is my favorite for Safari even on desktop. I can't imagine browsing without it enabled.
I love that you captured this!
Ironically as I watched your video on Imgur, a full screen ad popped up over top of it on Imgur itself :,(
The irony of uploading it to imgur is not lost on me :)
I could host videos myself if I still had a 2 gigabit connection but that was left behind in my most recent move.
I feel you there. And my recent move was into a city, too, that ended up having even less options than my previous suburban abode. They never laid down fiber here and still have no plans to.
Yeah, that link showed the intended content taking up about a quarter of my screen real estate with the rest being ads. It was a ad-inception.
That gif says it all.
I was reading this article on an Iphone some hours ago. But gave up because of the ads.
Incentivizing publishers to load massive amounts of third party JavaScript was an industry mistake and the people who write JavaScript for ads are profoundly irresponsible and unprofessional.
Which is why i block all 3rd party js by default. If your website requires 3rd party js and it is not essential for me to really visit it, most prob i am just gonna close it.
I recently started using Firefox Focus enabled as an extension in iOS Safari, and it works great as an ad blocker. The op site loads for me. Was a hn rec from another thread I think.
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/firefox-focus-privacy-browser/...
Same here.
Hilarious that anti-annoyance software is now needed, not only to make sites nicer, but to make them functional.
It's not even that good of an article. I tried to understand what Hall Effect is and what its advantages are, but it was so vague, beating around the bush and forwarding you to other articles on their site, that I gave up and searched on the YT mechanical keyboards channels instead.
Here's a nice intro review of a Hall Effect keyboard, from Switch and Click, which explains its features and differences compared to a normal switch keyboard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNANUquoXOA
I tried to understand what Hall Effect is and what its advantages are, but it was so vague, beating around the bush and forwarding you to other articles on their site, that I gave up and searched on the YT mechanical keyboards channels instead.
Hall effect switches have been used in model railroading for a couple of generations now. Very often to stop and start engines in hard-to-reach places with a wand.
Here's an explanation: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_effect_sensor
Not to mention the popup that scrolled me back to the beginning of the article.
Agreed. Also happened to me on this page and I’ve seen it become more common. I wonder if there is a common gaming-related ad service which does this since it feels like the EXACT behavior I see on IGN.
iOS is genuinely terrible. I appreciate the point that so is web design for many sites, but even if you ignore that, 97% of bugs on our product with no cookies, ads, analytics etc come from iOS. My favourite time burner right now is when apple pushed for new viewport units and then don't respect them. Their address bar animated design is atrocious.
I learned about this on Optimum Tech on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Feny5bs2JCg and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxEa7k8j1Ro
Does anyone have experience if these provide tactile feedback?
There’s lots of discussion about the actuation point, but is there a “click” feel?
I’ve had a lot of wrist strain issues over the last 20 years. I tried many “ergonomic” keyboard layouts, but ultimately switching to a standard ikcb CD108 with Cherry MX brown fixed my issue. The click stops me from mashing the keys too hard, which seems to be the primary root cause (for me).
You can't easially do adjustable actuation points and a click feel so I doubt it. They can put a click in someplace, but that is a mechanical operation which means either it is fixed at the factory or you need to take a screwdriver (or something) to each key to adjust. The nice thing about hall effect switches is you can choose the actuation point(s!) in software making it quick and easy to change until you find what works, but software cannot adjust a mechanical click.
I can think of a couple ways to adjust a mechanic click from software. You could put gears and a stepper motor in the keyboard to adjust where the click is (you of course need to design a click mechanism as the keys don't have it) - this would be complex, fragile, and expensive (likely large as well). You could put a coil under each switch and fire that when the key actuates to provide a force change. There are probably others. I have no idea how practical anything is, but I wouldn't discourage anyone from trying it if you are interested - it sounds like a fun project (of the type I don't have time for)
This article is about GAMING keyboards. Magnetic keyboards seems to offer some nice features gamers will use. However for general typing a traditional mechanical keyboard may well be better: do not feel bad about using Cherry MX browns if they work for you (I use them myself, but I'm trying to figure out if my budget allows for a model F) - the only downside is in competitive games you may lose to someone who has a keyboard that can do things yours cannot.
Could use mobile phone haptic feedback technology in the keycaps, or maybe in the body of the keyboard?
Some old IBM keyboards had a solenoid built in, thumping the inside of the case with every key press to provide feedback. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qw6ebySet0&t=906s
Probably the most practical DIY option.
Maybe, might be worth a shot. It won't be as easy on a phone because you need to feel the feedback only in the key your pressed and not all the other keys your fingers might be one (potentially starting to press but not yet activated).
Something else for someone who has time to work on. Have fun.
Do you prefer a click or a quiet tactile bump? The MX browns you describe are a light quiet tactile switch.
Most of these Hall effect keyboards are all running linear switches - no tactility whatsoever. I’ve seen a handful of switches which are HE and tactile, but I’ve not tried them. Glorious Panda HE are a notable model - if the name is consistent with their past efforts these should be significantly more tactile than the MX Browns you currently use.
I had optical "clicky" switches in my Wooting One TKL, so it is possible. In hindsight I would not go for the clicky or even tactile ones again, but use linear switches, because the great thing about optical and HE switches is that you can select the actuation point to your own typing style, which of course is not possible with switches that provide mechanical feedback.
Analogue controls are indeed an awesome concept for a keyboard. Has anyone shipped any "revolutionary" default setups, e.g., from tiny things like making your pinky suffer less by having lower actuation point to making shallow actuation type lowercase and deeper actuation type uppercase or longer holds on arrow keys accelerating the movement?
Pity, though, the progress is still stalled on the actual layout - the ergonomic splits and other improvements are still a tiny niche
Would be a fun way to implement a modal text editor. Full press for normal mode, light press for insert mode. Could be unintentionally hilarious though.
I wonder if with a sufficiently fast ADC measuring each switch's voltage transition, you might be able to do velocity detection with normal switches? I guess might need an ADC wired to each switch rather than row/column matrix scan.
No, not with any useful degree of granularity. The electrical contacts aren't directly driven by the mechanical switch, they mostly rely on their own spring tension to make the connection. The mechanical part simply separates them.
By measuring contact bounce, you can probably detect the difference between fast and slow presses, but not much more. Maybe three or four levels total
HE sensors measure distance, if you measure often enough get velocity out of that. Linear switches should be able to do the same thing (I know almost nothing about linear switches so I might be wrong)
Edit: HE sensors not switches. HE naturally measures distance, but there are switches that have electronics that provide an on/off signal thus making the term switch not useful. If you buy a HE switch make sure you know which style you are getting.
Considering that mechanical switches have to be debounced, how would that work?
I guess you'd record the curve of the first transition, and the after the debounce period has elapsed you'd use that curve to emit the appropriate key signal. Or alternatively you could use the whole analogue sequence as input for the key detection (assuming no limits on compute power etc). Neural net powered keystrokes!
Would love to have a ergonomic hall effect keyboard!
I daily drive the Moonlander, both for work and gaming, and it's honestly really good. Would be awesome to get a similar keyboard but with magnetic keys.
An ergonomic keyboard with good tactile feedback would be my holy grail. If someone knows of a good one, please send it my way.
Omg to hell with that ad-infested site
What ads? https://ublockorigin.com/
I use uBlock Origin and there are still multiple affiliate-link "deal" inserts throughout the article
Are there are that are compatible magnetic switches that one could use as a drop in replacement?
Unlikely, at least in the sense being discussed here.
A Hall effect sensor works by running a constant current in one direction while measuring the potential difference in a different axis. The keyboard’s PCB needs to be able to register a range of values, not simply binary on-off. Regular keyboards aren’t equipped to do that.
Typically in an HE keyboard, the sensors are mounted to the PCB. The “switch” itself is just a neodymium magnet at the end of a POM stem, in a polycarbonate housing with a spring.
There are other kinds of magnetic switch that have historically been used in keyboards – e.g. Fujitsu used reed switches in the 70s – and in theory you could probably build them into a Cherry MX-compatible package. But they wouldn’t provide many of the benefits of HE keyboards, besides smoothness and reliability, and I’m not aware of anyone doing it.
Reading this brought something to my mind that I had not yet considered. With the rise in popularity of esports, we're getting to a strange place where there is very professional gear for playing games, that is specifically suited to the high intensity, quick reactions of professional athlete. Whether you think that is an appropriate term is not an issue, people are getting paid for this and they play at a much different level that most of us plebes do.
But then you have people who play casually--and let me be clear here, even if you are very good and only play ranked competitive matches, if it's not your job, you're who I'm talking about--who get this same gear. They deck themselves out like the pros for what is, essentially, a hobby. Is that weird? I don't know. People who head out to the local basketball court typically go with only a Spalding they bought at Walmart. Folks who play a little footy on the weekends might buy shin guards, but otherwise just head out to a field.
I don't know where I'm really going with all this, it just seems odd that a person would say one should buy a keyboard that allows for 1mm actuation, when the vast, vast majority of game players wouldn't even be able to tell the difference.
There are tons of sports where the amateurs end up buying top of the line gear.
People will spend thousands to ride the same bikes the Tour de France riders do. You can spend crazy amounts on basketball shoes, sweat wicking synthetic shirts and all sorts of other gear that LeBron uses.
If there is a sport that requires buying specialized equipment, there are people buying stuff that is completely unnecessary for their use case.
If you aren't a gamer is a keyboard with this tech worth looking at?
If you like mechanical keyboards with relatively light to mid-weight linear switches, you’ll probably enjoy Hall effect switches.
Being contactless, they’re extremely smooth, quiet and reliable, and being able to set the actuation point exactly where you want it is a very nice bonus.
I’ve been using a Monsgeek M1 HE (I think probably still the cheapest option on the market, even though it’s an incredibly solid block of aluminium) since the summer, mostly just for coding, and for me it’s the best keyboard I’ve ever used.
If your preference is for tactile/clicky switches, or heavier linear switches that you hit hard enough to bottom out, or you’re perfectly happy with any old membrane keyboard, it’s probably not worth the expense.
The question that should have been answered, but wasn't.
Since booleans default to false, I would say: no.
More seriously, if you assign different meanings to a key relating to how deep it gets pressed, it will result in lots of key misses I suppose. You will have to develop a piano feel, but for a piano there is a correlation with loudness.
So if you define a soft action for a gentle press on space, and a "stronger" action for a deep press on space, maybe you can do useful things without fucking up your typing.
Things like: going to
But i am a bit wary about how precise and consistent the board will be. But if it works, it might save on key combinations to learn.I got one a couple months ago, I _really_ enjoy typing on it and use it for programming. Perhaps I just never found the right mechanical keyboard, but it feels like my fingers just glide over it when typing.
There's no tactile feedback when the switch activates, but you can adjust the actuation point of the switch to where it feels comfortable to you. I've set mine to be just about as sensitive as possible.
Do you fully press (or mostly fully press) your keys when you type? If so, then no, Hall Effect keyboards probably aren't going to get you anything a mechanical keyboard won't. The headline feature is extremely high sensitivity, i.e. you barely have to tap the key for it to register.
To me, the headline feature is full control of sensitivity, in real-time if you want.
A standard mechanical keyboard has a fixed actuation point. If you want to change that you need to replace the switches. A Hall-Effect keyboard allows you to tune the actuation point exactly where you like. You can also tune the actuation and reset points independently and even in relation to each other. That allows you to have a reset on a slight raise of the finger without having to raise past as absolute point in travel.
As an example of how the analog nature of HE keyboard could be useful, you could (in theory) set it up so that key repeat rate is adjusted based on how far past actuation you have the key. So, if I press harder the key repeats faster. Sure, you can solve the same problem with navigation shortcuts, but the point is that having a keyboard that captures an analog value for each key opens a wide range of possible use cases. I'm personally ecstatic that they are finally releasing Low-Profile HE keyboards.
I think that's what I like most about typing on a HE keyboard, you don't have to press the key all the way into the backstop, so there's less impact on your fingers.
Any review with referral links is not worth the electrons used to show it on your screen.
I hope the volume scroll could be used as mouse scroll.
I currently run a Keychron K15 Pro and can easily remap my volume scroll as a mouse scroll (U/D or L/R or any combo). I can even have it on a different layer so it's volume control most of the time. In fact, I use the knob to control keyboard LED brightness on a secondary layer.
I've never heard the term "magnetic keyboard" before. They're called hall-effect keyboards...
For those not in the know, hall-effect key switches can tell the analog position of each key, rather than only whether it's pressed or not as in traditional key switches.
Right, but the hall effect sensor measures the strength of a magnetic field.
The key/switch has a little magnet on the stem and the hall effect sensor is measuring the strength of the magnetic field as the magnet moves up/further & down/closer to the sensor.
> Right, but the hall effect sensor measures the strength of a magnetic field.
Yes I recognize that. But I've seen hall-effect keyboard many, many times and magnetic keyboard never (before this post). I guess some company decided to call their keyboard a magnetic keyboard and now a specific subset of people think they're all called that - even though they've been called hall-effect keyboards since their inception.
I don’t know the marketing reasons behind hall effect keyboard v/s magnetic keyboard, but a technical reason for calling it magnetic keyboard is that they are probably not actually using hall effect sensors.
Hall effect sensor is commonly used to refer to any magnetic field sensor but there are many others types. Given the size of the keys I suspect they are actually MEMS Lorrentz force sensors, so “magnetic keyboard” might be more correct.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEMS_magnetic_field_sensor
There is (or was?) a Dutch keyboard maker called Wooting who has been offering alternative switches like optical and hall effect switches for a few years. I owned their Wooting One TKL and it was really nice. They always had issues with availability, and AFAIK they never offered a 70% HE keyboard, so I ended up with a Keychron with yellow mechanical switches. I still think those optical or HE switches are the best, and it was a bit sad to see that small Dutch company not getting their products out of the door.
Edit: Thanks for the corrections in the comments below.
Wooting is still around and still makes HE keyboards. They offer 60% and 80%, but not 70% models.
Perhaps I'm just unaware, but I thought Wooting was the company behind HE keyboards becoming a commercial product. When they did their first HE keyboard I certainly didn't see any other HE keyboards on the market. I would still be using Wooting if they had a Low-profile HE version.
It seems that while I've been not paying attention, HE keyboards have become a thing finally and, more importantly, Low-Profile HE keyboards are now a thing. This makes me super happy as I only use LP keyboards now days. I love my Keychron K15 Pro!
Yeah, they have a 80% HE keyboard on their website, but again only for preorder. I really wish for them that they can achieve the delivery by mid of December, but personally I will only consider buying one once they actually have it in stock.
Wooting is in fact mentioned in TFA.
Love the promotion of cheating features in gaming devices! /sarcasm
I play single-player games from time-to-time and avoid multiplayer games as much as possible.
Just out of curiosity, is there some vetting process for keyboards that qualifies them as "not cheating"? Any hardware advances in input/output devices could be considered an unfair advantage, right? If my keyboard is a simple, non-smart one with significantly lower latency than your keyboard, does that mean I'm cheating? At some point you have to draw a line and say 'this is acceptable' and 'that is not', who draws the line? Does the line move? When does it move?
Cheating is going outside the defined rules of a game. If a specific game calls out that macros of any kind are forbidden, then great, that means some of the features of modern keyboards are cheating. Now, how do you police that? Pro-level competitive players are likely to be so fast and coordinated as to be close to indistinguishable from a well configured macro. Really, if you want to have limits on input devices, you need to codify that into the game, not say any advances in keyboard design are cheating. If using a macro lets a player be better than everyone else, limit the input capability to the level that is considered fair and don't worry about what keyboard someone is using. Otherwise, it's like complaining about someone using expensive high-refresh-rate gear and calling them a cheater.
If you can't be detected then it can't be illegal. That makes the discussion of whether or not it's cheating immaterial.
What you're describing in your second paragraph is how good anticheat works. It is inevitable and unfortunate (from the perspective of GP) that it must be tuned to near-olympic performance as the cap (or you risk punishing people who are just good, which is a really bad idea).
edit: Of course, once you go down this rabbithole you start realising that olympic level performance is a freak accident of genetics, which is like having your own little biological "cheat". It makes you categorically better than other people at specific things. We return to the statement that figuring out whether that's cheating is immaterial. To my mind it's also a waste of time.