The allies threw 7,800 bodies at the Battle of Blanc Mont right as the war was ending. Two days after the battle, Germany requested an armistice, and the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman empires disintegrated. Two months later in the US in 1919, prohibition went into effect, 26 cities had violent race riots, and the Attorney General began a purge of immigrants and communists. In 1920, the Republican Party returned to the White House with the landslide victory of Warren G. Harding, who promised a "return to normalcy" after the years of war, ethnic hatreds, race riots and exhausting reforms. Harding used new advertising techniques to lead the GOP to a massive landslide. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_(...
"It has been said that history repeats itself. This is perhaps not quite correct; it merely rhymes." - Theodor Reik
The same tragic, traumatic events are being "rhymed" now in Ukraine. Yeah, perhaps we're tired of hearing it - but I'm writing this because after 110 years of industrialized warfare, our institutions and systems have still not restructured themselves to prevent these cascades of events. The consequences are unspeakably terrible (read the article!).
I'll be quite clear about it: a nuclear superpower invaded a disarmed neighbor, and is currently committing genocide on its territory. This is unquestionably, unconscionably, unacceptably wrong. (I won't mention the situation in Gaza, because that situation is far more complex and horrendously polarized.)
More than any other profession, many of us - as software developers, mathematicians, scientists - have a better grasp of complex systems. And most of us on HN have a healthy, deeply internalized sense of morality. I really hope some of us will branch out into politics or other power-positions in those institutions, and start knocking people's heads together.
I'm constantly - deeply - appalled, at the ghastliness of what's happening right now while we chat, work, and play in our separate worlds. Humanity can do better.
>More than any other profession, many of us - as software developers, mathematicians, scientists - have a better grasp of complex systems. And most of us on HN have a healthy, deeply internalized sense of morality. I really hope some of us will branch out into politics or other power-positions in those institutions, and start knocking people's heads together.
Having a good grasp of complex systems doesn't make one avoid the shortcomings that have created modern genocides and industrialized society, etc. In fact I'd argue that deep knowledge of complex systems makes a politician even more competent at causing harm on massive scales.
How do you want to prevent something that is ultimately not in your domain of decision. Most wars are started by autocrats under the belief that they can gain something from them. Those beliefs are often false or at least unfounded, but how do you want to change them from the outside? It is no more realistic than changing someone's religion by persuasion - possible, but rare.
"Knocking people's heads together" doesn't work on people who have the entire military force of their country at their disposal. Such heads are basically un-knockable. Unfortunately one of the things that the state as an institution is really good at is projection of force; and outside democracies which divide power in a state deliberately, that force usually answers to a single person and their whim, or, at best, a small inner circle of people.
And frankly, I trust scientists even less when it comes to politics that anyone else. Khmer Rouge was an academic enterprise. There isn't really a reason why an educated person should have any better sense of morality than a random farmer from the bush. When I look at the activity of the IT giants, it is 50 shades of moral grey underlined by stuffing their pockets and trying to project a cool vibe. It seems to contradict your idea of superior morality in the IT circles.
There are so many interpretations of reality. There are also forces that are intentionally directing the messaging in a way that is perceived to be advantageous. This is to say, it's all very well to say one needs to do something, but are you even sure you have the right info? Back to your complex software system, where are you receiving information about the error in a system from, and why are you confident that it actually relays reality in a way that you would agree with? If you are not certain of the signal, why would you want to attempt to reengineer the system? With false information, aren't you bound to make it worse?
Anyway, the real problem is parsing out the information in a way that reflects reality - what is presented on screens passes through many filters before it gets to us: corporate, military, governmental, not too mention all the people that are only able to see the world in the way that their education allows.
> a nuclear superpower invaded a disarmed neighbor, and is currently committing genocide on its territory.
As a fellow software developer, let me challenge both claims.
Regarding genocide, there is zero evidence of that. We can tell that by comparing the number of civilian victims whenever Russia bombs Ukraine, with the number of civilian victims when Israel bombs Gaza or Lebanon. While there is no excuse for "collateral damage" (that's the Western term, I'm sure Russians have a similar euphemism), and one civilian victim is one too many, it is clear that Russia is targeting infrastructure and not humans. It is throwing many more, and more powerful bombs than Israel and doing orders of magnitude fewer civilian victims. This (false) narrative may have worked, had the conflict between Israel and Palestine not restarted, providing a grim yet useful comparison point.
Regarding the first statement, the extent to which Ukraine was disarmed is subject to debate. After all, demilitarization is an explicit goal of the Russia invasion. The main reason Russia invaded Ukraine is to prevent it from being used as a NATO-powered bulwark against Russia in the future, as America often does with its "allies". According to your own morality, if this prevents a future invasion of the sort you decry, wouldn't it be morally justified to some extent?
> it is clear that Russia is targeting infrastructure and not humans
Russia is targeting both. In particular, Russia targets glide bombs without precision at cities. There are also cases like Bucha, where people were rounded up and killed. And the execution of POWs.
Keep in mind that Gaza is both more concentrated, and it doesn’t have air defense systems like Ukraine does.
More importantly, while Ukraine has a developed network of shelters for protection of civilians and procedures for evacuating civilians, if necessary by force, the authorities in Gaza have been very clear that shelters are only for militants and they have also used force to keep civilians from evacuating.
I believe this disarmed part is referring to the nukes Ukraine used to hold, specifically.
On the other point, Russia intends to hold the territory and integrate the civilian population they conquer while Israel seems less interested in incorporating Gazans as equal Israeli citizens any time soon. (Not defending Russia but I suspect the different motives lead to different outcomes).
> while Israel seems less interested in incorporating Gazans as equal Israeli citizens any time soon.
Israel doesn't want to control Gaza. Israel want to coexist peacefully with it and has been willing to go very far and take risks to achieve that.
This is very clear when you study its relation with Egypt, Jordan and Gaza.
The fact that Jordan and Egypt has not seen a single attack after they stopped attacking Israel is well known.
On the topic of Gaza it seems to be a lot of confusion, but here are some details people often leave out:
- Israel voluntarily left Gaza in anticipation of a permanent peace deal
- Israel wanted Gaza to succeed and forcefully removed their own people
- Israel left infrastructure behind
- Israel, in the beginning, had relatively open borders towards Gaza
- There was hospital cooperation so people could easily be rushed from Gaza to Israeli hospitals to save lives
- Gradually the borders have been closed more and more. Each of these restrictions have a reason written in blood.
- Yes, that includes the reasons why ambulances are not allowed to cross into Israel without inspection, Gazan terrorists abused even that opportunity to stage attacks
- The border have been restricted more and more thanks to this, but even until 07. of October last year, people could live in Gaza and work in Israel
There is a lot of really phenomenal metal based around WWI for anybody else interested. Bands like 1914 (sings exclusively about WWI, from Ukraine) and Warbringer (a couple of songs specifically about WWI) come to mind.
The allies threw 7,800 bodies at the Battle of Blanc Mont right as the war was ending. Two days after the battle, Germany requested an armistice, and the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman empires disintegrated. Two months later in the US in 1919, prohibition went into effect, 26 cities had violent race riots, and the Attorney General began a purge of immigrants and communists. In 1920, the Republican Party returned to the White House with the landslide victory of Warren G. Harding, who promised a "return to normalcy" after the years of war, ethnic hatreds, race riots and exhausting reforms. Harding used new advertising techniques to lead the GOP to a massive landslide. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_(...
https://archive.is/VODGb
what a touching story
"It has been said that history repeats itself. This is perhaps not quite correct; it merely rhymes." - Theodor Reik
The same tragic, traumatic events are being "rhymed" now in Ukraine. Yeah, perhaps we're tired of hearing it - but I'm writing this because after 110 years of industrialized warfare, our institutions and systems have still not restructured themselves to prevent these cascades of events. The consequences are unspeakably terrible (read the article!).
I'll be quite clear about it: a nuclear superpower invaded a disarmed neighbor, and is currently committing genocide on its territory. This is unquestionably, unconscionably, unacceptably wrong. (I won't mention the situation in Gaza, because that situation is far more complex and horrendously polarized.)
More than any other profession, many of us - as software developers, mathematicians, scientists - have a better grasp of complex systems. And most of us on HN have a healthy, deeply internalized sense of morality. I really hope some of us will branch out into politics or other power-positions in those institutions, and start knocking people's heads together.
I'm constantly - deeply - appalled, at the ghastliness of what's happening right now while we chat, work, and play in our separate worlds. Humanity can do better.
>" And most of us on HN have a healthy, deeply internalized sense of morality."
Really. I's say sense of delusion. I think that ratio of assholes to normal is about the same in highly educated vs your regular factory workers.
>"I really hope some of us will branch out into politics or other power-positions in those institutions, and start knocking people's heads together."
Sure. PhD in physics, that's all it takes for politicians to fix everything. This is delirium
>More than any other profession, many of us - as software developers, mathematicians, scientists - have a better grasp of complex systems. And most of us on HN have a healthy, deeply internalized sense of morality. I really hope some of us will branch out into politics or other power-positions in those institutions, and start knocking people's heads together.
Having a good grasp of complex systems doesn't make one avoid the shortcomings that have created modern genocides and industrialized society, etc. In fact I'd argue that deep knowledge of complex systems makes a politician even more competent at causing harm on massive scales.
Knowledge does not make one moral.
How do you want to prevent something that is ultimately not in your domain of decision. Most wars are started by autocrats under the belief that they can gain something from them. Those beliefs are often false or at least unfounded, but how do you want to change them from the outside? It is no more realistic than changing someone's religion by persuasion - possible, but rare.
"Knocking people's heads together" doesn't work on people who have the entire military force of their country at their disposal. Such heads are basically un-knockable. Unfortunately one of the things that the state as an institution is really good at is projection of force; and outside democracies which divide power in a state deliberately, that force usually answers to a single person and their whim, or, at best, a small inner circle of people.
And frankly, I trust scientists even less when it comes to politics that anyone else. Khmer Rouge was an academic enterprise. There isn't really a reason why an educated person should have any better sense of morality than a random farmer from the bush. When I look at the activity of the IT giants, it is 50 shades of moral grey underlined by stuffing their pockets and trying to project a cool vibe. It seems to contradict your idea of superior morality in the IT circles.
There are so many interpretations of reality. There are also forces that are intentionally directing the messaging in a way that is perceived to be advantageous. This is to say, it's all very well to say one needs to do something, but are you even sure you have the right info? Back to your complex software system, where are you receiving information about the error in a system from, and why are you confident that it actually relays reality in a way that you would agree with? If you are not certain of the signal, why would you want to attempt to reengineer the system? With false information, aren't you bound to make it worse?
Anyway, the real problem is parsing out the information in a way that reflects reality - what is presented on screens passes through many filters before it gets to us: corporate, military, governmental, not too mention all the people that are only able to see the world in the way that their education allows.
> a nuclear superpower invaded a disarmed neighbor, and is currently committing genocide on its territory.
As a fellow software developer, let me challenge both claims.
Regarding genocide, there is zero evidence of that. We can tell that by comparing the number of civilian victims whenever Russia bombs Ukraine, with the number of civilian victims when Israel bombs Gaza or Lebanon. While there is no excuse for "collateral damage" (that's the Western term, I'm sure Russians have a similar euphemism), and one civilian victim is one too many, it is clear that Russia is targeting infrastructure and not humans. It is throwing many more, and more powerful bombs than Israel and doing orders of magnitude fewer civilian victims. This (false) narrative may have worked, had the conflict between Israel and Palestine not restarted, providing a grim yet useful comparison point.
Regarding the first statement, the extent to which Ukraine was disarmed is subject to debate. After all, demilitarization is an explicit goal of the Russia invasion. The main reason Russia invaded Ukraine is to prevent it from being used as a NATO-powered bulwark against Russia in the future, as America often does with its "allies". According to your own morality, if this prevents a future invasion of the sort you decry, wouldn't it be morally justified to some extent?
> it is clear that Russia is targeting infrastructure and not humans
Russia is targeting both. In particular, Russia targets glide bombs without precision at cities. There are also cases like Bucha, where people were rounded up and killed. And the execution of POWs.
Keep in mind that Gaza is both more concentrated, and it doesn’t have air defense systems like Ukraine does.
More importantly, while Ukraine has a developed network of shelters for protection of civilians and procedures for evacuating civilians, if necessary by force, the authorities in Gaza have been very clear that shelters are only for militants and they have also used force to keep civilians from evacuating.
>"Keep in mind that Gaza is both more concentrated, and it doesn’t have air defense systems like Ukraine does."
And their civilians are holding it wrong. /s
I believe this disarmed part is referring to the nukes Ukraine used to hold, specifically.
On the other point, Russia intends to hold the territory and integrate the civilian population they conquer while Israel seems less interested in incorporating Gazans as equal Israeli citizens any time soon. (Not defending Russia but I suspect the different motives lead to different outcomes).
> while Israel seems less interested in incorporating Gazans as equal Israeli citizens any time soon.
Israel doesn't want to control Gaza. Israel want to coexist peacefully with it and has been willing to go very far and take risks to achieve that.
This is very clear when you study its relation with Egypt, Jordan and Gaza.
The fact that Jordan and Egypt has not seen a single attack after they stopped attacking Israel is well known.
On the topic of Gaza it seems to be a lot of confusion, but here are some details people often leave out:
- Israel voluntarily left Gaza in anticipation of a permanent peace deal
- Israel wanted Gaza to succeed and forcefully removed their own people
- Israel left infrastructure behind
- Israel, in the beginning, had relatively open borders towards Gaza
- There was hospital cooperation so people could easily be rushed from Gaza to Israeli hospitals to save lives
- Gradually the borders have been closed more and more. Each of these restrictions have a reason written in blood.
- Yes, that includes the reasons why ambulances are not allowed to cross into Israel without inspection, Gazan terrorists abused even that opportunity to stage attacks
- The border have been restricted more and more thanks to this, but even until 07. of October last year, people could live in Gaza and work in Israel
This qualifies as an act of genocide:
https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-is...
Putin wants to destroy Ukraine as a nation and obliterate Ukrainian identity.
"Sixteen years old when I went to the war
To fight for a land fit for heroes
God on my side, and a gun in my hand
Chasing my days down to zero"--Motorhead, 1916
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTG6I3jxdnc
I was the first fruits of the battle of Missionary Ridge.
When I felt the bullet enter my heart
I wished I had staid at home and gone to jail
For stealing the hogs of Curl Trenary,
Instead of running away and joining the army.
Rather a thousand times the country jail
Than to lie under this marble figure with wings,
And this granite pedestal
Bearing the words, ”Pro Patria.”
What do they mean, anyway?
- Edgar Lee Masters, from Spoon River Anthology.
There is a lot of really phenomenal metal based around WWI for anybody else interested. Bands like 1914 (sings exclusively about WWI, from Ukraine) and Warbringer (a couple of songs specifically about WWI) come to mind.