68 comments

  • omoikane 5 hours ago

    Full list of World Digital Competitiveness Ranking is on pages 48-49 of this PDF:

    https://imd.widen.net/s/xvhldkrrkw/20241111-wcc-digital-repo...

    via: https://www.imd.org/centers/wcc/world-competitiveness-center...

    • skissane an hour ago

      Direct link to the PDF (instead of having to go via some web-based PDF viewer):

      https://imd.widen.net/content/q3p8lowz7b/original/20241111-W...

    • isbvhodnvemrwvn 3 hours ago

      Germany that high? Do they count fax machines as digital?

      • cookiengineer 2 hours ago

        As a German, I think Estonia has to be before us with a huge lead. Their digital infrastructure is the wet dream of our bureaucratic apparatus.

        I don't think the IMD is aware of just how crappy digital processes are in Germany.

        A legal process that is digital literally means that you fill out an online form so they can send you the printed out paper form via snail mail and you have to redundantly fill that out again, saving overall exactly 0 seconds with the initial digital website. Not kidding.

        • Foobar8568 an hour ago

          Look where IMD is located....There is a reason why Switzerland ranks up there.

      • skissane an hour ago

        > Do they count fax machines as digital?

        I'm surprised by the number of medical practices in Australia that still use fax machines for sending reports and referrals.

        Ordinary email is widely not viewed as sufficiently secure to use for sending confidential patient health data (although I've seen a minority use it for that purpose anyway). There is a secure digital messaging system supposed to replace fax machines, HealthLink, which some practices use. But it is owned by a private company and costs extra $$$, and a lot of practices decide they don't want to pay it. So fax machines survive. Now running over VoIP (actually FoIP) – Australia has turned off its POTS telephone system.

      • Archelaos 3 hours ago

          Country credit rating #1
          Robots in education and R&D #2
          E-participation #3
          Graduates in Science #4
          Computer science education index #4
  • Prbeek 2 hours ago

    I'm surprised that Kenya is not in the list.

    Very high English proficiency and a large industry that does assignments for American students

    • downrightmike 2 hours ago

      Probably the chinese immigrants and not the kenyans themselves. China has been indebting Africa for a while now, They are happy to take land when cash payments fail

      • alephnerd 2 hours ago

        > Probably the chinese immigrants and not the kenyans themselves

        Absolutely not.

        Kenya's ICT industry is very robust and home grown. Kenyan companies like M-Pesa and Safaricom are fairly competitive, and I think Kenya's tech industry is at the same position India's was in the 2000s and is set to take off. In fact, nowadays Kenyan ICT companies have begun expanding the tech industry in Uganda and Tanzania.

        Also, Chinese investment in Kenya is low. Indian investment tends to be much more prominent. Heck, President Ruto's campaign advisory team was from the same company the BJP uses [0], and the second largest source of FDI in Kenya after the UK is India's Marutius backdoor [1].

        You're more likely to see Chinese investment in Ethiopia or DRC, not really Anglophone East Africa where Indian, South African, a d UAE firms/investors can outcompete Chinese investors due to stronger business (and family) connections.

        Surprisingly, in Lusaphone countries like Angola and Mozambique, Vietnamese players like Viettel have a strong presence in the ICT industry, which I think might be due to Military support from their revolutionary era (Viettel is owned by the VPA).

        ----------

        Also, this ranking is from IMD - an unaccredited degree mill posing as a business school in Lausanne that coasts off it's reputation from when it was an executive training program for Nestle before the 1990s.

        Switzerland has a big issue with unaccredited business schools.

        [0] - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-63397760

        [1] - https://www.lloydsbanktrade.com/en/market-potential/kenya/in...

  • second_brekkie 44 minutes ago

    Agreeing with other comments. I wouldn't take this too seriously.

    Judging by the Korean score. Korea's English proficiency is nowhere near that high. Among university age reading and listening is good. But Koreans even when they 'know' English can't string a sentence together. (Source: live here)

  • johnnyanmac 3 hours ago

    I know this is the Jaapn times and it's focusing on its namesake. But I found it more interesting that the US fell from 1st to 4th in a single year on this digital competitiveness. Hope that isn't a slippery slope.

    For Japan, the English skills aren't worth acknowledging. The digital competitiveness is unfortunate, but when you read the reasons (most of the current crises of the world that Japan got to experience first)

    >The country still struggles with a number of significant challenges that hamper its efforts to become a technological leader, especially in terms of the ability of companies to adapt and the lack of the workers with the right skills and experience, the survey found.

    Some of that lack of agility is cultural, but I suppose this simply all opens up the immigration question that's been pricking at them for some time now.

    • aithrowawaycomm 3 hours ago

      I don't think the US going 1st->4th is at all meaningful. According to the report the US went from 2nd to 18th in "adaptive attitudes" and 2nd->8th in general "future readiness." This seems more like a difference in how IMD is measuring things than a change in US economy/policy. But maybe the EU did something that moved their rankings upwards?

      In general there is too much complexity behind the ranking to tell a meaningful story about such a small decline in said rankings, especially when none of the variables are particularly quantitative in the first place! It's better to interpret this more as "the US is consistently in the top 5" than "the US is slipping," or "those wily Singaporeans finally beat the Americans."

      • johnnyanmac 3 hours ago

        I sure hope so. I did say slippery slope for a reason, I know it's a bad method of thinking overall

        But seeing this data after I read other local reports of the US digital literacy plummeting with GenZ does give me a bad omen in my mind. But once is coincidence.

        • aithrowawaycomm 3 hours ago

          The "good news" is that US youth brain rot is probably a global phenomenon, so it shouldn't affect the rankings :)

    • onlyrealcuzzo 2 hours ago

      > But I found it more interesting that the US fell from 1st to 4th in a single year on this digital competitiveness.

      Nit picking, but "falling" from 1st to 4th could simply be because the others "rose" above.

      It's not like you have to be digitally worse to do worse in a ranking.

      Other people / countries can just be improving faster.

      Some might argue it's a pedantic distinction, but I would argue it's pretty important here.

      It's like if over the next 30 years, GDP per capita inflation adjusted increases 50% in the US but 75% in China - would you really say the US "lost"?

  • lakis 4 hours ago

    And they are 1st in Japanese Skills !

    • johnnyanmac 4 hours ago

      Wow what an upset! I wanted Korea to win.

      The fact that we have an English proficiency Index worth spending more than 10 words on really highlights the bias of the people who organize this data.

      • fngjdflmdflg an hour ago

        >the bias of the people who organize this data.

        It seems that IMD is based in Switzerland and Singapore.[0] Singapore and Switzerland hold ranks 1 and 2, respectively, in digital competitiveness.[1] Singapore has a high level of English proficiency.[2]

        I don't think the mere fact that an English proficiency Index worth spending more than 10 words on exists shows that the people who organized this data are biased. English proficiency is important in business, science and programming, to name some examples. I think an argument as to why the inclusion of such a metric is biased should be given.

        [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Institute_for_Ma...

        [1] https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/hong-kong-economy/articl...

        [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EF_English_Proficiency_Index#2...

        • dron57 10 minutes ago

          Why is Singapore even in an English language competition? It's the dominant language there.

        • delta_p_delta_x 42 minutes ago

          Singapore is de facto part of the Anglosphere, ergo its 'high level of English proficiency'. Singaporeans are effectively bilingual, and English is used at all levels of interaction, from the wet markets and supermarkets, to the public and private schools and universities, to the highest levels of government administration and communication. Can't get more 'Anglo' than that.

          It's natural for the citizens of a country that uses English as though it were its native language to be proficient in it.

        • AlchemistCamp 32 minutes ago

          It's somewhat ridiculous that Singapore is included in the English proficiency index given that is English is one of its four official languages. Not only that, but it's also the privileged official language that all children must use in school. The other official languages are widespread but not universal.

        • seanmcdirmid 26 minutes ago

          Both Switzerland (9m) and Singapore (6m) are tiny. Even if they are at the top of everything per capita, it isn’t very meaningful given that the scale of China, the USA, and the EU, just dwarfs either countries by far.

      • travisjungroth 3 hours ago

        Which bias is that? English proficiency is extremely relevant to a country’s ongoing development for all sorts of reasons I would think are obvious.

        Read the report. It’s really well put together. https://www.ef.com/assetscdn/WIBIwq6RdJvcD9bc8RMd/cefcom-epi...

        • Archelaos 2 hours ago

          When I look at the ranking on p. 4, English does not appear to be very relevant. Switzerland is #31, but Greece #8. Romania is #12 just two places behind Germany #10. Italy is #46, France #49. India #69, China #91, Japan #92, Thailand #106.

          The diagrams on p. 13 all have correlation coefficients (r values) between 0.56 and 0.61, which signify only moderate associations. And the causality from language to success behind such associations is very likely even weaker. In other words, people from many countries are good at English because their country is economically advanced (and not the other way round).

          I think that on an individual level, it is very desirable to be able to at least read English very well because it opens up so many resources on the Internet. However, when it comes to economic impact, the ranking seems to suggest an extremely tenuous link at best. In addition, foreign language skills are likely to become even less relevant in the future as translation software improves.

        • adastra22 2 hours ago

          English fluency matters less for Japan, for what it’s worth. They have their own Japanese versions of everything.

          • KeplerBoy an hour ago

            They don't have their own japanese versions for a lot of stuff?

            They still use the same software as the west (iOS, Android, Windows, Chrome, ...).

            Most of these cornerstones of modern Software maintain Japanese, Chinese and Korean documentation, but there is no way those docs are as good as the English ones.

        • jcranmer 2 hours ago

          Correlation is not causation, and if you look at most of the graphs correlating English proficiency to outcomes, the correlation coefficient is around 0.55-0.65, which aren't great correlations. Paying closer attention, it seems that a lot of the correlation comes from the fact that the low-English-proficiency countries include some states that are in the process of self-immolation, and the countries that have the highest English proficiency has no one worse off than Greece and Croatia, which are about average on a global scale. The causation probably more goes the other way: the countries that do well on development can afford to have higher English proficiency than those that don't.

        • johnnyanmac 3 hours ago

          That exact bias:

          >English proficiency remains a reasonable indicator of a nation's ability to produce goods and services that generate economic growth, and it correlates well to national investment in helping people achieve their full potential by providing education, healthcare and a decent standard of living.

          Meanwhile China's boom in the mid 2010-s (China is 2nd to dead last on this chart, above Japan) still had westerners flock to them. In a few instances, disgustingly so. The language barrier at that level of economy is negligible. A few skilled translators are a rounding error for that gold mine.

          I'm more than fine with data for data's sake. I have all sorts of useless trivia and statistics that simply put a smile on my face and have little practical use. But using "how good you are at English as a society" to predict economics seems a bit tonedeaf.

          • travisjungroth 2 hours ago

            That’s not a bias it’s just reality. Of course English proficiency isn’t perfectly correlated with economics. It’s one factor of many.

            People aren’t usually trying to just predict GDP or something. A report like this is useful for a big company deciding where to expand. I’m writing this from Colombia, which has a big call center industry, much of it in English.

            “English proficiency of a nation doesn’t matter, don’t talk about it much”, which is what you seem to be getting at, is so clearly wrong to me. Maybe it’s the bias of personal experience. Just because it’s not important to you doesn’t mean it’s unimportant in general.

            • johnnyanmac 2 hours ago

              You can talk about it all you want, but the correlation just seems too weak for a statement like the above to track. Nothing in statistics is perfect, but they should at least be reasonable (don't make me bring out the XKCD comic).

              And sure. I have bias and didn't do any mass survey. But when you see more and more of your country falling in education ranks, and the people up top trying to appeal more to countries with very poor english skills as opposed to building those facilities domestically. , I'm going to be skeptical that the language of the country matter much in the grand scheme of things.

      • DiogenesKynikos 3 hours ago

        English is the international lingua franca.

        Not being able to speak English means you have limited ability to speak to people from around the world. That's worth 10 words in a report.

        • gerdesj 3 hours ago

          Saying "English is the French language", half in Latin says much about English!

          • card_zero an hour ago

            It gets worse than that, it's a term for a trading language that was mostly Italian and originated in Turkey.

        • alephnerd an hour ago

          > English is the international lingua franca

          True, but this underestimates Japanese's prominence.

          Japanese (and Korean) fluency is fairly important in much of ASEAN (for example, Vietnam and Thailand), as much of their leadership, rising executives, and rising academics tend to study abroad in Japan.

          • KeplerBoy an hour ago

            What's higher education in Japan like?

            In Germany and Austria, for example, a lot of graduate level STEM university programs are taught in English, even when everyone in the room is perfectly capable of speaking German, just because the literature is English.

            • alephnerd 37 minutes ago

              I'm not Vietnamese, but my SO is Vietnamese and used to do medical research in Japan as part of that ASEAN-Japan pipeline (and it's the same model in South Korea and Taiwan).

              There are two types of ASEAN students:

              1. "Students" - guest workers brought under the "Trainee" program who in reality are temporary guest workers cleaning toilets, gutting fish, manually harvesting strawberries, or working in hostess bars. They are treated similar to how Nepali and Bangladeshi migrant labor would be in UAE because these trainee workers in Japan lack legal support and often in debt to a broker in the home country.

              2. Actual Students - brought as part of Japan's soft power diplomacy in ASEAN. They will study in a mix of Japanese and English or full Japanese (depending on the university). They will also be housed in dorms for international students. These students end up becoming civil servants, professors, and potentially business leaders.

              Most junior and mid-level professors and medical leadership at top medical universities in Vietnam like UMP tend to be alums of these programs in Japan and SK.

  • kazinator 36 minutes ago

    Native English speakers who teach English in Japan make like 30K per year or something in that ridiculous ballpark.

    • GuestFAUniverse 23 minutes ago

      Isn't that the general problem teaching anything there? -- you get the "sensei" honors for free, but have to cope with the fraction of a decent pay.

  • rawgabbit 2 hours ago

    I find it odd that India is 51st in digital competitiveness. More than half of the Fortune 100 is completely dependent on Indian outsourcing. It is also strange that Vietnam is not on the list. Quite a few companies I interact with have engineering located in Vietnam.

    • zeroonetwothree 2 hours ago

      These rankings are always just random marketing bait. I can’t think of a single one that is actually useful and methodologically sound.

  • snozolli 5 hours ago

    I tried looking at the methodology document, but it just seems like pseudo-technical double speak that doesn't actually explain what they're measuring. Is this study actually known to be valuable, or is this just click-bait for middle managers?

    https://libraries.emory.edu/sites/default/files/migrated-doc...

    • nojs 28 minutes ago

      Haha, I love the typesetting in particular

    • Foobar8568 an hour ago

      IMD study, what else do you expect?

    • alephnerd an hour ago

      > Is this study actually known to be valuable, or is this just click-bait for middle managers

      It's basically marketing for IMD - a degree mill business school in Switzerland.

      They make a lot of this content due to close proximity to think tanks in Lausanne and Zurich.

    • qayxc 2 hours ago

      Some of their metric are dubios (number of published AI articles - wtf?) and the weighting seems arbitrary.

  • not_your_vase 6 hours ago

    Uhh, about that English skill ranking... I wouldn't take that very seriously.

    I mean sure, Japan is quite infamous when it comes to English proficiency. But looking at the list, some countries are quite interesting in the "High proficiency" group. I know that in some of these countries most people would die of thirst if they had to ask a glass of water in English (or any other foreign languages, to be exact).

    • csa 6 hours ago

      > But looking at the list, some countries are quite interesting in the "High proficiency" group.

      The labels are somewhat arbitrary cutoffs (every 50 points), but which country in the “high” category would you say is worse than HK or Honduras (the two top countries in the “moderate” category)?

      I could definitely see an argument for a few ranks up or down, especially if you change the ranking criteria.

      That said, this list seems directionally correct.

    • dinkblam 6 hours ago

      agreed. the newest data is here:

      https://www.ef.com/wwen/epi/

      there is absolutely no way that Austria has "Very high proficiency".

      • cschmid 6 hours ago

        I wonder what makes you say this? In my (limited) anecdotal experience, I've noticed that Austrians seem to have far higher levels of English competency than Germans, for example.

      • jahnu 5 hours ago

        Not sure how it’s graded but it is very rare to meet an Austrian who can’t speak basic English and kids in the cities these days are often practically bilingual!

      • moogly 4 hours ago

        I'm guessing Portugal must have improved a lot since I was there in 2019 and didn't have a great time trying to use English. I had better success rate with my extremely atrophied high school Spanish.

        • rancar2 3 hours ago

          I’ve been to Portugal over 20 times in the last 10 years. In Lisbon and Porto, the Portuguese people speak English very well and most with an American accent. Foreigners who come to Portugal [1] and may work service jobs (a more recent phenomenon) may not speak English as well as the native population, while many of them still do still speak English well.

          [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Portugal

      • rjsw 5 hours ago

        Austria has a big tourist industry sector.

      • teractiveodular 4 hours ago

        That's debatable, but there are some other howlers. The world's #1 tourist destination Thailand is near the bottom of pack 10 spots below Afghanistan, Finland is below Germany, Switzerland is below Serbia, and South Korea is almost 50 ranks above Japan.

        • dustark 3 hours ago

          The general population in Thailand has very limited English skills. As a tourist, you’ll encounter Thais whose jobs involve interacting with foreigners, and they can speak some English (not much). As for the rest of the population, english is practically non-existent ("hello", "good bye", and that's it).

      • Barrin92 5 hours ago

        are you sure you're not making that judgement just based on accents? As a German, Austrians and us tend to stand out a bit compared to Swedes or the Dutch in my experience when it comes to spoken English but otherwise proficiency is high, always seems like a bit of an outdated stereotype to me.

      • ulfw 5 hours ago

        There is no way Hong Kong has moderate proficiency and German has high proficiency. It's a bullshit list.

        This is coming from a German living in Hong Kong.

    • rjsw 5 hours ago

      I would say that the Dutch think they are a lot more proficient at English than they are.

      • whatwhaaaaat 5 hours ago

        Crazy to hear as a person who lived there for 7 years and had to conduct 0 conversations in Dutch in business, daily commerce, or interactions with the government. There are trilingual bums.. The only people who didn’t speak English didn’t speak Dutch either.

        • CoastalCoder 4 hours ago

          I wonder if this means that English proficiency rates subject vary a lot by locality.

        • rjsw 4 hours ago

          I have worked there too.

    • chaostheory 5 hours ago

      The Philippines should be much higher. The majority of the population can do conversational English. A lot of their media is also American media in English.

      • bogtog 5 hours ago

        The Philippines is already considered "Very high proficiency", second in Asia only after Singapore

        • chaostheory 4 hours ago

          Yes, but it’s also higher than many of the European countries listed.

  • alephnerd an hour ago

    Japan has English fluency issues (but it can be argued that this is because there isn't much of a need to study English in Japan), but using the EF Test rankings are dumb.

    EF's English tests aren't accepted by most institutions.

    TOEFLS, IELTS, and CAIE tests are the commonly used English tests globally.