A cycling desk / Zwifting with a split keyboard

(ohrg.org)

169 points | by breezykermo 21 hours ago ago

78 comments

  • 0_____0 4 hours ago

    OP: equipment note for you at the end of this-

    Most folks aren't really familiar with what training for competitive cycling (or structured training in general) looks like.

    There are large, month-scale blocks where you're simply building aerobic capacity by cycling at low-ish intensity. Heart rate is somewhere between 115 and 145 for me personally during these efforts. 15 hour (or more!) weeks are not uncommon.

    Nils van der Poel was doing something like 6-hour blocks of zone 2 during his base season as an Olympic speed skater.

    When outdoor riding is available, it's preferable, but indoor trainer sessions are basically always more time efficient for a given training load. You make consistent power, there aren't street lights or flat tires. If you run out of carb mix you go to the kitchen and fetch more. In winter, it's the only reasonable option. Going for a ride in -15C and salt slush is fine for a commute (crazy, I know), but doing it for 15 hours a week, probably in the dark, is not reasonable. Indoor is the only practical option to get this training load in winter.

    Most people just watch TV or use Zwift (social riding simulator) during these blocks. I'm not much of a TV guy, and to be honest, I find a good technical problem to be great distraction from the drudgery of Zone 2.

    Note for OP: I've actually considered using a split keyboard in a very similar way to this. I run aero bars on my bikes for ultra-distance events, and I have them on the trainer right now. At some point I would like to mount a split keyboard to the aero extensions themselves - this would take all the load off the wrists. It is also possible to use the aero bar armrests without the extensions and to be able to type this way. If I end up prototyping this I will shoot you an email.

    • adbge 3 minutes ago

      The reason we know Niels van der Poel's training in such detail is because he wrote a manifesto about it, "How to Skate a 10k", when he retired. From it:

      > My target developed during the summer of 2021 to reach 33h of cycling weekly. I would aim to do three 7h bike rides and two 6h rides. If I would’ve been able to run, which I wasn’t due to injury, I would have lowered the hours a little and settled for 25h weekly (or approx. 30h if I would’ve combined running and cycling).

      It is a fascinating read for anyone interested in endurance sports, highly recommended: https://www.howtoskate.se/

    • jcalabro 3 hours ago

      I'm a heavy Zwift user myself and I saw think this is genius and now I want to replicate it. I even ride a Cannondale and use a ZSA keyboard haha

  • pqs 7 hours ago

    This is precisely what you shouldn't do. This is what the "system" wants you to do, to work while you exercise, to work while you're with your family, ... What you should do is work the hours you have to and not one more, then you get up, take your bike and enjoy nature.

    • _api 6 hours ago

      Is it ok to do work while you're exercising? Is it ok to exercise while you're doing work?

      Student of the Talmud asks the rebbe: "Rebbe, am I allowed to smoke cigarettes while I study the Talmud ?" The Rebbe categorically says "no, it would be highly offensive to smoke while studying the Talmud". Student then asked: "Am I allowed to study the Talmud while I am smoking a cigarette?" Rebbe: "Well.."

    • dpz 3 hours ago

      This isn't working cutting into exercise time. It's getting more out of your working time. If I'm competitively training could be looking at 2 hours of aerobic base exercise a day. If I can do this whilst working - allows me to enjoy my evenings with my partner

    • 0_____0 5 hours ago

      It's zone 2. In the depths of winter base phase, I (not OP) can be doing 3 hours of relatively continuous power on the trainer, up to 5 times a week. It's mind numbing. I would be watching TV otherwise.

      I'd be outside if I could. I live somewhere where weather happens, and I'm not biking 3 hours a day in -10C and nasty salt muck.

    • jjallen 3 hours ago

      What if you like your work and you want to exercise/boost your VO2/stay healthy?

      What if it's dark and rainy outside where you live for quite a few months per year?

      What if you want to write a book while biking?

    • muffwiggler 6 hours ago

      I second your view. Either i work, or i do something else. Often when i read about people's ideas, like this article, it helps confirming "being on weirdo level" is truly something else.

      Next: shitting while cycling and working?

    • Sakos 7 hours ago

      The negative effects of being sedentary are known, and it requires extra effort in exercise to just offset the health risks of being sedentary during a full workday. It seems obvious and logical to me that if we can be less sedentary while working, it would be meaningfully beneficial to us mentally and physically. The system wants us to work. It's up to us to design how we work in a way that isn't as destructive to us.

    • vunderba an hour ago

      Did you actually read the article? Nothing in it indicates that the author is working more hours. Spending time with your family and "working while riding an exercise bike" are not MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

      If you have to "be at work" (such as in a remote job) why not get some free exercise at the same time?

    • newsclues 5 hours ago

      Work at a desk, then take time to go ride a bike, it may super charge your work.

      Going for a ride is a great way to get into a flow state and really think.

      • 0_____0 5 hours ago

        I don't think you understand what training to be a competitive cyclist looks like. 15 ish hours of relatively constant power per week sounds about right for base phase, which tends to coincide with winter. This is different from rec riding.

    • 09thn34v 6 hours ago

      !!!

  • egypturnash 29 minutes ago

    Looks like he’s putting a lot of his body weight on his wrists while typing? That sure is gonna summon the Carpal Tunnel Fairy.

  • stronglikedan an hour ago

    > This allows me to rest my palms on the handlebars and to extend my fingers pretty naturally over the top of them to reach the keys. There is definitely a bit of wrist awkwardness palpable in this position, and I aim to experiment with other angles and positions as I get more comfortable with the set up.

    This is just asking for wrist problems. I hope they find the better position they seek. Maybe use that core more and keep the wrists up as much as possible.

  • rendaw 12 hours ago

    So are you putting pressure on your wrists with your wrists bent at an angle while typing? I think this is totally awesome in principal, but isn't that basically asking for some carpal tunnel issues?

    It's kind of hard to tell from the photos and videos though which are both at weird angles.

    • rob74 10 hours ago

      I would also be worried about putting pressure on other body parts (groin area). This is a nice idea, but I'm not sure if a racing bike is right for it - the lean-forward posture minimizes drag while cycling, but that's of course irrelevant here. So a bike with a more upright sitting position, or even a recumbent bicycle, might be better?

      • edding4500 6 hours ago

        That! Moving your legs to avoid sitting all day seems fine but putting yourself in an unergonomic position like on a road bike seems counter productive. Your neck and lower back will probably tighten up badly over time.

    • NAR8789 11 hours ago

      I think with proper cycling posture you can take the pressure off of your wrists.

      Use your back and shoulder muscles to support your upper body and arms, so that you can ride with elbows bent. If you can bend your elbows, you can avoid pushing on the handlebars for support. That will make for more comfortable wrists with or without a keyboard.

      Reference: Sheldon "Ouch!" Brown https://sheldonbrown.com/pain.html#wrists

      • zeroq 10 hours ago

        Funny you referenced Sheldon. He's like Knuth of cycling.

        The industry will keep shoving down your throat their new "advancements" every year, but at the end of the day, bikes hasn't changed a lot, and the common knowledge will remain the same.

        • lostlogin 7 hours ago

          I don’t know that I completely agree. Yes, many elements are similar, but a carbon road bike with disc brakes, electronic shifting, deep wheels, radar, a computer and tubeless 28mm or 30mm tyres is an actual wonder to ride. I’m justifying a truly silly spend, but when I get on an old bike or a rental, it feels like stepping back in time.

      • k1kingy 10 hours ago

        Unsurprisingly, core strength is a big part of cycling. It's a good test to lean down in a more aero position and lift your hands slightly off the bars and see how long you can hold it.

        so less pressure on your wrists while typing would be quite the core workout over an extended period of time.

      • lostlogin 7 hours ago

        Maybe we need a TT bike keyboard?

  • mcdow 17 hours ago

    Super cool.

    One improvement: get a different bike saddle. One that doesn't put pressure on the perineum. There's evidence to suggest extended time spent in a bicycle saddle can cause ED.[1]

    1. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S17436...

    • shiroiushi 11 hours ago

      What makes you think that saddle puts pressure on the author's perineum?

      A properly fitted road bike saddle is sized so all your weight is on your "sit bones", parts of your pelvis around the perineum.

      If your saddle is putting pressure on your perineum, that means it's the wrong saddle for you.

      The problem is different people have different-sized gaps between their sit bones, so different people need different saddles. They are absolutely not a one-size-fits-all part. A narrow saddle might fit one person (probably a man) just fine, while being too narrow for someone else (possibly a woman, as women tend to have wider sit bones).

      If your saddle is causing you pain, you should see your local cycle shop and have them do a proper fitting. Properly-equipped shops will have a device that measures your sit bones so they can recommend a properly-sized saddle for you.

      • zeroq 11 hours ago

        +1

        Also, and speaking from experience after having a professional bike fit, a "saddle issue" often is not directly related to the saddle itself. You might be placed too forward and slipping just ever so slightly on the saddle, so you're sitting on the "rod", instead of the back part of the saddle; the saddle might be too high or too low, etc.

    • loeg 16 hours ago

      This should be a comfort driven decision. If you aren't having discomfort (including, e.g., genital numbness), there is not a lot of reason to switch. If you're having discomfort and pushing through the pain, that's a problem. OP never mentions saddle discomfort.

  • sailfast 17 hours ago

    I love Zwifting, but the idea of riding in that position while also trying to concentrate seems really stressful :)

    Maybe on a hybrid I could look at my monitor while typing, but that seating position makes things quite hard.

    Good on ya for trying though! Allez!

    • seadan83 15 hours ago

      I hooked up a shelf over the handlebars of an indoor trainer. With regards to stressful, I found anytime I had to concentrate on something - the pedaling would drop off. The cycling while computing was best for movies or video games (particularly RPG's being the best)

      • adbge 14 hours ago

        Yeah, I've found the same problem (with a standing desk): as soon as I need to concentrate I stop maintaining my cadence. Maybe it's something I could train myself out of but I haven't been worried about it; cycling is my "productive" thing, I don't need to double it.

        So far I've just been using the (open source!) app Auuki to drive my smart trainer while I stream television. Works great on NixOS. https://auuki.com/

        I am curious to hear about what games people are playing while cycling (other than Zwift, of course.)

        • bodge5000 5 hours ago

          I don't have this setup myself, but I imagine Caves of Qud would work great. Its turn based so you don't have the problem of needing perfect control, in fact sometimes I need a good minute or so to think about my next move. I can easily sink hours into it anyway, might be worth me looking into

        • seadan83 12 hours ago

          Appreciate the aauki shout-out! :)

          FWIW, my go-to is Project Zomboid. A fantastic game!! There are a lot of actions that need a few seconds to complete. It's kinda perfect. I was also combining with an absurd amount of edibles too. Suddenly, I was putting in 4 to 6 hours of zone 2!! The 90 minute sessions suddenly seemed short. (I'm travelling right now, but wow - I'm looking back fondly. Edibles, Zomboid, cycling, and tons and tons of honey tea (ie: dumping honey into tea; consumed about 2 to 4 tablespoons every 30 minutes))

          Yeah, programming while at the cycling desk setup just did not work; cadence would drop to just way too low. Haven't had a chance to try that setup for a thing like a standup meeting though, could maybe work for zoom meetings. I feel like 'listening' only would be doable.

    • rconti 10 hours ago

      Yeah, I don't think I could do zone 2. Zone 1, yeah.

  • muti 17 hours ago

    A split kb with integrated trackball would help alleviate the awkward mousing situations, e.g. the charybdis [1]. I'm in a similar position having gone down the ergo split keyboard rabbit hole and vim everywhere, now building a charybdis myself

    1. https://github.com/Bastardkb/Charybdis

  • DevX101 5 hours ago

    Trying to do productive work via a keyboard on a bike isn't going to catch on. A walking desk is better for that. I've had the idea of creating a custom game controller on the handle bars though, in a similar setup to this to play some simple games.

    • newsclues 5 hours ago

      Voice memos with AirPods when your out riding, then at a desk take the notes and do the work

  • wiether 17 hours ago

    Z2 sessions are supposed to be boring, they force you to endure the mental pain of not feeling physical pain when doing something dull. They also train you to listen to your body. Doing something else while in a Z2 session is going to kill those Z2 gains.

    And overall, being bored is great for the mind, help with creativity, problem solving...

    Once you embrace Z2 sessions, they became some sort of meditation, with the endorphins helping after a few hours.

    Watching a video or typing stuff will remove all those potential benefits!

    Sometimes it's nice to not overthink or try to optimize everything. Just enjoy the moment, enjoy the mental pain.

    • bharrison 16 hours ago

      Personally I don't even start a 'ride' in Zwift for my Z2 rides for this very reason. I stare at the title screen and use my phone (connected via BT from an adjacent room so as not to be tempted to use it) to load the smart trainer. Finally I use fans, but as exhaust to create negative pressure that pulls as much O2 out of the room as possible.

      Next week plan is to start riding without bibs or a saddle so as to maximize the anguish.

      • freetime2 12 hours ago

        Sounds like a very effective Z2 protocol. I might also recommend making a phone call to Comcast, turning on speaker phone, and doing the ride while listening to hold music. Pro tip: if someone answers just ask to speak to a manager - that should get you an additional 3+ hours of uninterrupted Z2 time.

      • dr_kiszonka 14 hours ago

        Are you familiar with the Bike Spike Theft Deterrent?

      • eric-hu 14 hours ago

        This is satire right?

        • fiatpandas 12 hours ago

          I’d say it’s pretty much mainline “pain cave” zwift mythology.

        • loeg 8 hours ago

          Of course.

    • jrockway 14 hours ago

      I just do the Z2 sessions to convert carbohydrates and fats into heat. I don't really need mental toughness for anything.

    • marinhero 15 hours ago

      This sounds like bro science. Having boring sessions is not the point, Z2 training is designed to build endurance, improve cardiovascular efficiency, and increase your body's ability to burn fat as a fuel source at moderate intensities. It’s not about enduring boredom or embracing “mental pain” but rather about consistently training at a level that is sustainable for extended periods.

    • rokob 16 hours ago

      This is ludicrous. The point of Z2 is a specific physiologic adaptation. There isn’t really any mental pain. Anything you can do to make your training more consistent is positive for your long term performance. Save the mental gymnastics for the actual hard days.

      Staying in a hard VO2 interval or pushing through on those long threshold efforts is an actual mental exercise. Don’t push the belief onto people that staring at a wall in Z2 is giving you some gains. If it works for you then go for it, but it’s a wild mentally that thinks a physically easy ride needs to be hardened up.

    • carabiner 16 hours ago

      lol what? Vitaliy recommends watching movies during Z2 stairmaster sessions (2-4 hours long). No athlete/trainer says they have to be boring. If you have access to mountains, doing a long Z2 hike in a beautiful area is totally beneficial.

    • asp_hornet 12 hours ago

      lol, citation desperately needed

    • ballooney 9 hours ago

      Ludicrous, deeply confused, and wrong bro science.

  • finnh 17 hours ago

    He will earn ten million merits in no time!

  • minitoar 14 hours ago

    I still think hot tub desk is the future

  • castrodd 17 hours ago

    This is madness. But having said that, I might try to do the same.

    • brippalcharrid 12 hours ago

      That may be, but you know that in order to truly one-up him and show your dedication you're going to have to do it on rollers.

    • fergie 7 hours ago

      I agree- utterly insane. He should be using Emacs.

    • djmips 14 hours ago

      This is madness. I will never try this!

      • prmoustache 11 hours ago

        Same, I don't understand zwift, nor do I understand using a trainer outside of warming up before a time trial, xc or cyclocross race context.

        The whole fun of cycling is to actually ride a bicycle, feel the wind, the road texture, notice the changing seasons in the landscape, rail corners at high speed...trainers annihilate all this and reduce this nice and enjoyable activity to a boring and terrible fitness activity. No screen would change that.

        • loeg 8 hours ago

          I think the idea is: if you have to work anyway, you might as well get some huge Z1/2 volume in while you're working. Most of us with regular 9-5 jobs don't usually have time for the 25-35 hour training weeks that full-time pros sometimes do.

  • SpicyP 11 hours ago

    Love the idea!

    My gym has stationary recumbent bikes -- I wonder if rigging up a keyboard to one of those would be better? If you don't need to put your upper body weight on handlebars, maybe it'll be easier to have a more traditional mouse/keyboard setup.

    Won't be as cool though

    • memalign 10 hours ago

      I use an AirDesk with a stationary recumbent bike:

      https://memalign.github.io/p/airdesk.html

      It’s been life-changing!

    • vosper 11 hours ago

      Stationary recumbent bikes works great. I have little tray with mouse and trackball that I slide over my knees when cycling.

  • Separo 15 hours ago

    I’m on Zwift a lot with the Zwift Ride and Wahoo Kickr core. But I’m looking for a recumbent setup so that I can also work while riding or game on the ps5 in a more comfy position. For keyboard I have the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard which is perfect since it has a mouse layer built in. Haven’t figured out the recumbent setup yet though. Any tips appreciated. I’m in the EU.

  • andy_ppp 16 hours ago

    If anyone wants to help me with https://veloa.com my email address is in my bio. Thanks!

  • shepting 14 hours ago

    I'm guessing that using some clip-on aero bars would make a big difference. Then you're not using your hands to support any weight so the typing would be a little easier.

    And if you're doing hours of Z2 training, you likely want to be getting more time in a position closer to what you'd be doing in the drops.

  • throwaway42668 12 hours ago

    I would destroy that thing with sweat in the first 30 min.

  • randoglando 12 hours ago

    Not sure what all the other comments are about, but I think this is great! Would be interesting to see if this can be done with a cheaper keyboard too

  • __mharrison__ 9 hours ago

    Hmmm... Maybe I should hook up my recumbent to the trainer.

  • jauntywundrkind 17 hours ago

    Steve Roberts built a chording keyboard into the handlebars of his recumbent bike. Unclear how much writing he really got done while riding the behemoth Winnebiko II around, but it was definitely a key event that inspired me towards computing & ubiquitous computing, made me see adulting as possibly being cool.

    https://microship.com/winnebiko-ii/

    • breezykermo 17 hours ago

      This is incredible. "I simply type in binary.... I can do about 30 wpm when I'm on a roll, so to speak."

    • BubbleRings 13 hours ago

      I went looking for my copy of Computing Across America when I saw OP’s post, so I could post about it here, then I saw you beat me to it. A really nice guy, who I met when he stopped at the company I was working at, Chips and Technologies, back in the day, in San Jose. Steve if you see this, reply here and say hi to us!

    • RistrettoMike 16 hours ago

      Always glad to see someone reference Steve & his computing escapades!

  • Mountain_Skies 7 hours ago

    I'm planning on doing this with my stair stepper but I don't see a good way to do it with a traditional style keyboard that will be both comfortable and efficient. Split keyboards look like a good solution but of course there's going to be a period of adjustment. Perhaps a winter project. Still looking for what would be the best layout for someone who codes primarily in curly brace languages.

  • ingen0s 16 hours ago

    If I could upvote several times , I would , kudos! Inspired!

  • dogmatism 14 hours ago

    fucking Inigo San Milan and Peter Attia and their "zone 2" bullshit

    this is nothing new. Back in the day, the teaching was "ride in the little ring in winter" which was essentially Zone 2

    Plus San Milan is tainted by his Saunier Duval years, and Attia is clearly a grifter

    Just fucking ride. Most of the time easy, once or twice a week hard

    now get off my lawn!