I cannot load half (?) of the article, but the situation right now is a joke, indeed. I don't remember if there are other alternative stores outside SetApp, which is still in Beta, and AltStore PAL. I have downloaded the later. It has two (2) applications and 4-5 extra sources. I have only subscribed (?) to the UTM one. Epic Games also has one, by the way.
Now, AltStore has been a thing for some time now. There are many more sources (repositories of sort) out there. But, if you go to add a new one, it says "no marketplace ID was found, there are no notarized apps in this source, which is not supported in this version." Googling what is up I found that Apple has to give the greenlight for apps to get posted to the alternative store(s). Which already has been inspected by Apple. It's a joke of the kind only Apple can make.
And I was just aware that alternative app stores will be a thing and Googled explicitly for them, of course I found no promotion in the App Store for them. They are too busy promoting the same apps again and again and falsely advertising stuff, as Apple does.
The comments here are exactly the same set of comments under every single article related to US companies facing issues in European markets. There's another article on the front page about Netflix's Dutch offices being raided in a tax probe and I could copy/paste entire comment chains between the two and you wouldn't know it.
-> Irate American complaint about how it's a stealth tax
-> equally irate European rebuttal that US companies should just follow the laws if they want to do business here
-> Follow up irate American reply
... Repeat until 3 or 4 comments down it's somehow become:
-> American: US GDP is so much higher than in the EU
-> European: but quality of life is better here because of free healthcare etc, GDP isn't a good measure, I went to the US once and saw poors on the street!
-> American: something angry about socialism
... And so on. It's the same tedious argument on every single article about EU privacy laws or taxes, and I could also copy/paste these exact comments from a Reddit post about the same issue and nobody would be the wiser.
Also add in comments (especially when talking about the DMA or similar) about how Apple isn't "truly a monopoly," that "they built the platform, they should get a cut," "video game consoles also take 30%," it'll "decrease security" if Apple allows alternative stores, etc. Some people really love the corporation like their own friend, essentially in a parasocial relationship with Apple.
Yes, absolutely. Although at least those seem to be unique to articles on Apple, I don't think I could change the company to Facebook or Netflix and copy them to another post without people noticing.
As a European who posted in said article what always gets my blood boiling is the way in which (presumably average?) US commenters will defend things like a big multinational corporation not paying taxes in the market where they are selling their product. I don't really see this even as political: Sure say that if you are the top brass in a big multinational corp, but most of us aren't that and will never be. So if they paid even just a modest amount of taxes, us regular Joes would need to pay less, if assume unchanges levels of public spending.
So what I don't get is the quasi-reflexive need to shill for corporations who make it harder for outsiders to rise up in the market. I know what they say about Americans seeing themselves not as poor, but as temporarily embarassed billionaires, but how are you going to have a cut at the american dream by shilling for quasi-monopolists?
I'm also European and my rule of thumb is that if something triggers me enough to make my blood boil, the absolute least useful thing I can do, both for other people reading, and for my own mental health, is to start a pointless argument.
“just”... The DMA is intentionally vague about how to comply and the EU refuses to tell companies ahead of time whether their plans to comply are actually in compliance. When the amount of money at stake over the long term is far more than the fine, getting fined is the more cost effective option to learn the EU’s actual expectations. This is “just” the incentive structure the EU created. They could avoid most of this by working with gatekeepers to preclear their plans and avoid the wasted time. But I think the EU actually likes the unnecessary noise because it makes it clear they are doing something rather than quietly ensuring compliance. There is a perverse incentive for them not to cooperate to achieve their goals efficiently.
But what are you basing your personal judgment on? What would have been reasonable to you?
My comment was about how under the EU's framework, Apple's behavior is totally rational. If Apple complies more than necessary, it could cost them far more than the fine, so obviously they undershoot compliance, accept the fine, and then proceed with minimal compliance. If the commission were simply upfront with about specifics of compliance, it could all be avoided.
Yes, and laws involve intent. A lot of laws "when you do a thing that has a result and you intend that result to happen, you're guilty of creating the result". It doesn't matter the thing you do. If you invent some new way of killing someone, and kill someone with it, you're guilty of murder even if the never heard of this particular way of killing someone, etc.
In Apple's case, the edict was to create competition by opening up the app stores. Apple "opened" its app store in a way that failed to actually allow competition and so it is subject to the fine. This is exactly why laws work this way - to prevent what is now called "gaming" the system.
It’s a law that establishes no measurable compliance guidelines, while providing absolutely no limitations on what the EU can decide counts as a violation retroactively. It’s basically “We’re not going to tell you what we want you to do. You need to guess what we want you to do, and fuck you if you guess wrong.”
And it's a law which was crafted with the intent that it apply to a small number of specific companies. How Apple is supposed to comply is hardly an unexpected question.
Are you telling me that a trillion dollar company cannot hire proper lawyers to make sure they comply with the laws?
You may think you are defending Apple, but in truth you are just saying they are horribly incompetent. If that is the case, they deserve to keep being fined.
In the most bad faith way possible. They are going to get absolutely gutted on this.
They think they’re above the fray, but there’s a reason Google and Meta are taking DMA way more seriously than GDPR - it’s basically a speedboat loaded with explosives in regulatory terms.
It’s designed to move fast and take out targets with extreme prejudice. It is crafted to explicitly overcome the barriers that prevent GDPR being enforced (eg Ireland).
Apple is fucking around with the EU, and will very shortly find out why the DMA is written the way it is.
Why on earth is that a relevant market. We don't look at cars as separate software from the hardware. Apples competition is Android and if better apps come out on Android it will win whatever small share the luxury option has.
Maybe we would, if there were only two car manufacturers that also happen to run their own private roads, bridges, mechanics etc. that are also mutually not compatible.
It shouldn’t be. There is no monopoly. There are people that are mad you can’t get blue iMessages from an android and you can’t side load “easily”. That’s it.
App store developers and app store participants don't have a good way to collectively organize, whereas Apple shareholders get all kinds of support to organize together.
These "You broke our arbitrary rules, therefore we fine you x% of your income" schemes are just a roundabout way for the EU to put an income tax on foreign corporations. It's going to blow up in their faces when companies start deciding that access to a shrinking European market just isn't worth the cost and hassle.
> when companies start deciding that access to a shrinking European market just isn't worth the cost and hassle.
Aka never. First off because they would get shredded by their investors, and second because the competitors emerging in that void would end up being threats in the future.
If you think that something comparable to a modern phone operating system and hardware will “just spring up” you’re delusional. If somebody was capable of producing more powerful phones than the iPhone, they’d be doing it already.
https://archive.is/slqAq
I cannot load half (?) of the article, but the situation right now is a joke, indeed. I don't remember if there are other alternative stores outside SetApp, which is still in Beta, and AltStore PAL. I have downloaded the later. It has two (2) applications and 4-5 extra sources. I have only subscribed (?) to the UTM one. Epic Games also has one, by the way. Now, AltStore has been a thing for some time now. There are many more sources (repositories of sort) out there. But, if you go to add a new one, it says "no marketplace ID was found, there are no notarized apps in this source, which is not supported in this version." Googling what is up I found that Apple has to give the greenlight for apps to get posted to the alternative store(s). Which already has been inspected by Apple. It's a joke of the kind only Apple can make. And I was just aware that alternative app stores will be a thing and Googled explicitly for them, of course I found no promotion in the App Store for them. They are too busy promoting the same apps again and again and falsely advertising stuff, as Apple does.
The comments here are exactly the same set of comments under every single article related to US companies facing issues in European markets. There's another article on the front page about Netflix's Dutch offices being raided in a tax probe and I could copy/paste entire comment chains between the two and you wouldn't know it.
-> Irate American complaint about how it's a stealth tax
-> equally irate European rebuttal that US companies should just follow the laws if they want to do business here
-> Follow up irate American reply
-> American: US GDP is so much higher than in the EU-> European: but quality of life is better here because of free healthcare etc, GDP isn't a good measure, I went to the US once and saw poors on the street!
-> American: something angry about socialism
... And so on. It's the same tedious argument on every single article about EU privacy laws or taxes, and I could also copy/paste these exact comments from a Reddit post about the same issue and nobody would be the wiser.
Also add in comments (especially when talking about the DMA or similar) about how Apple isn't "truly a monopoly," that "they built the platform, they should get a cut," "video game consoles also take 30%," it'll "decrease security" if Apple allows alternative stores, etc. Some people really love the corporation like their own friend, essentially in a parasocial relationship with Apple.
Yes, absolutely. Although at least those seem to be unique to articles on Apple, I don't think I could change the company to Facebook or Netflix and copy them to another post without people noticing.
As a European who posted in said article what always gets my blood boiling is the way in which (presumably average?) US commenters will defend things like a big multinational corporation not paying taxes in the market where they are selling their product. I don't really see this even as political: Sure say that if you are the top brass in a big multinational corp, but most of us aren't that and will never be. So if they paid even just a modest amount of taxes, us regular Joes would need to pay less, if assume unchanges levels of public spending.
So what I don't get is the quasi-reflexive need to shill for corporations who make it harder for outsiders to rise up in the market. I know what they say about Americans seeing themselves not as poor, but as temporarily embarassed billionaires, but how are you going to have a cut at the american dream by shilling for quasi-monopolists?
> what always gets my blood boiling is the way
I'm also European and my rule of thumb is that if something triggers me enough to make my blood boil, the absolute least useful thing I can do, both for other people reading, and for my own mental health, is to start a pointless argument.
I’m American and this is generally my philosophy as well.
[dead]
The EU should just tax Apple at a higher rate. It’d be more transparent that way what they’re doing.
Apple should just follow the regulations. It would be more transparent than breaking the law and being fined for it.
“just”... The DMA is intentionally vague about how to comply and the EU refuses to tell companies ahead of time whether their plans to comply are actually in compliance. When the amount of money at stake over the long term is far more than the fine, getting fined is the more cost effective option to learn the EU’s actual expectations. This is “just” the incentive structure the EU created. They could avoid most of this by working with gatekeepers to preclear their plans and avoid the wasted time. But I think the EU actually likes the unnecessary noise because it makes it clear they are doing something rather than quietly ensuring compliance. There is a perverse incentive for them not to cooperate to achieve their goals efficiently.
They aren't even attempting good faith interpretation of the law.
How are they not attempting good faith interpretation of the law?
This seems like a "personal judgement" sort of thing. Personally Apple's actions seem like a giant middle finger to the EU (not to mention humanity)
But what are you basing your personal judgment on? What would have been reasonable to you?
My comment was about how under the EU's framework, Apple's behavior is totally rational. If Apple complies more than necessary, it could cost them far more than the fine, so obviously they undershoot compliance, accept the fine, and then proceed with minimal compliance. If the commission were simply upfront with about specifics of compliance, it could all be avoided.
Can you please point out specifically which regulation Apple is infringing.
Because DMA was designed not to be explicit so relies on interpretation.
That is hardly unique to DMA. Law is rife with things requiring interpretation. See, for example, the reasonable person standard: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person
Yes, and laws involve intent. A lot of laws "when you do a thing that has a result and you intend that result to happen, you're guilty of creating the result". It doesn't matter the thing you do. If you invent some new way of killing someone, and kill someone with it, you're guilty of murder even if the never heard of this particular way of killing someone, etc.
In Apple's case, the edict was to create competition by opening up the app stores. Apple "opened" its app store in a way that failed to actually allow competition and so it is subject to the fine. This is exactly why laws work this way - to prevent what is now called "gaming" the system.
The edict was intentionally vague and overbroad.
It’s a law that establishes no measurable compliance guidelines, while providing absolutely no limitations on what the EU can decide counts as a violation retroactively. It’s basically “We’re not going to tell you what we want you to do. You need to guess what we want you to do, and fuck you if you guess wrong.”
And it's a law which was crafted with the intent that it apply to a small number of specific companies. How Apple is supposed to comply is hardly an unexpected question.
incisive, if not optimally reductive, summary of the underlying reality.
Not arguing it is unique to DMA.
But my point is that you can't say "just comply with the law" when compliance has been a much more interactive process.
Laws are not designed to be explicit, they aren’t code.
Are you telling me that a trillion dollar company cannot hire proper lawyers to make sure they comply with the laws?
You may think you are defending Apple, but in truth you are just saying they are horribly incompetent. If that is the case, they deserve to keep being fined.
The EU is not a country and it doesnt set tax rates
Taxing monopolies at a higher rate. Not a bad idea actually.
What market does Apple monopolize?
"Software that runs on iphone" market.
I thought they opened that up in the EU.
the door is wide closed in the EU.
In the most bad faith way possible. They are going to get absolutely gutted on this.
They think they’re above the fray, but there’s a reason Google and Meta are taking DMA way more seriously than GDPR - it’s basically a speedboat loaded with explosives in regulatory terms.
It’s designed to move fast and take out targets with extreme prejudice. It is crafted to explicitly overcome the barriers that prevent GDPR being enforced (eg Ireland).
Apple is fucking around with the EU, and will very shortly find out why the DMA is written the way it is.
Why on earth is that a relevant market. We don't look at cars as separate software from the hardware. Apples competition is Android and if better apps come out on Android it will win whatever small share the luxury option has.
Maybe we would, if there were only two car manufacturers that also happen to run their own private roads, bridges, mechanics etc. that are also mutually not compatible.
It shouldn’t be. There is no monopoly. There are people that are mad you can’t get blue iMessages from an android and you can’t side load “easily”. That’s it.
Nobody cares about iMessage in the EU. That level of classist discrimination is a US phenomenon.
The WhatApp dependence of EU countries is worse than the US SMS situation. At least I (US resident) can communicate with whatever app/device I choose.
And if the blue bubble matters to one's "friends" in the US...then one needs better friends.
App store developers and app store participants don't have a good way to collectively organize, whereas Apple shareholders get all kinds of support to organize together.
A tax they wouldn’t need to pay if they didn’t blatantly break our laws.
These "You broke our arbitrary rules, therefore we fine you x% of your income" schemes are just a roundabout way for the EU to put an income tax on foreign corporations. It's going to blow up in their faces when companies start deciding that access to a shrinking European market just isn't worth the cost and hassle.
> when companies start deciding that access to a shrinking European market just isn't worth the cost and hassle.
Aka never. First off because they would get shredded by their investors, and second because the competitors emerging in that void would end up being threats in the future.
If you think that something comparable to a modern phone operating system and hardware will “just spring up” you’re delusional. If somebody was capable of producing more powerful phones than the iPhone, they’d be doing it already.
Just look at what happened in China for an example of what a protected market will do.
The China whose economy has been imploding over the last year? good luck to Europe if they want to emulate the Chicoms.*eyeroll emoji*
Ooh please let this be true.
When Apple stops selling their shitty hardware here, can they take home Google and Facebook too?
I've never accidentally bought an Apple product so I don't really know what you're complaining about. Do you find it an issue?
[dead]
They're not arbitrary. If they were overly precise, a trillion dollar company would find every loophole for years and years.
There are 450 million people in the EU, nobody thinks Apple is just going to casually walk away.