DB48X: High Performance Scientific Calculator, Reinvented

(48calc.org)

121 points | by qwezxcrty 11 hours ago ago

51 comments

  • jwr 7 hours ago

    The 48G was a really good calculator, but only after loading additional software. The HP50g that came much later is better in every respect, except possibly for the smaller "ENTER" key (and people used to 48G will have to change some habits and possibly redefine some keys…).

    Incidentally, many young people (yes, I know how that sounds) do not know how useful a good engineering calculator can be and do not want to learn how to use one. They are missing out. Yes, there is a steep learning curve, but the rewards are significant if you do any amount of calculation in your hobby or work. No, this is not replaced by typing "python" (or "bc", or anything else, really) at your command prompt.

    Also incidentally, the development of good engineering calculators pretty much died. HP Prime is largely a school-pleasing toy, HP would down their calculator division a long time ago, and nobody else produces anything good. It's kind of like with gyms: what you get is what the market wants, and since the market doesn't know much, you get gyms full of useless exercise machines, because that's what people think a good gym should have. Similarly with calculators: you get stupid "modern" graphing calculators which are useless for actual work (it takes forever to use them to calculate useful things, and graphing is much better done on a computer), but they look great and sell well.

    I admire the project, although I would probably have taken a different path (emulation) to get the biggest effect with the smallest possible effort :-)

    I wish there was a good HP50G emulator for iOS — there used to be one, but it was abandoned (contact me if you want to develop it and would like to get the source code, it was under the GPL and I got it from the author).

    • 0x1ceb00da 16 minutes ago

      > No, this is not replaced by typing "python" (or "bc", or anything else, really) at your command prompt.

      Why?

    • analog31 4 hours ago

      I'm one of the last people at my workplace to use a calculator. I'm a scientist, not an engineer, so I use a scientific calculator. ;-)

      The schools ruined calculators.

      I still find a calculator handy, even when I've already got Python going on my PC. It's easier to use the calculator with one hand, especially in the workshop. You can get a Casio solar at Target for 10 bucks.

      My wife really prefers RPN, so I gave her my last HP when hers died.

    • wwweston 2 hours ago

      > but only after loading additional software

      which additional software?

      Also, these two statements:

      > it takes forever to use them to calculate useful things, and graphing is much better done on a computer

      > the rewards are significant if you do any amount of calculation in your hobby or work. No, this is not replaced by typing "python" (or "bc", or anything else, really) at your command prompt

      seem like they're at odds. If a computer has a considerable processing speed advantage and better display plotting capabilities, what's the value prop of the HP/RPL environment over python/bc/anythingElseReally?

      (I have a 48G, clearly I may not have gotten high enough on the learning curve, your answer could be relevant to my decision to keep it or send it on into the world)

    • ninalanyon 7 hours ago

      > No, this is not replaced by typing "python" (or "bc", or anything else, really) at your command prompt.

      Why not? At least I can easily copy the results and the code to a document which avoids transcription errors. Or do you mean that there simply isn't a program that has the functions you use?

      • tivert 6 hours ago

        >> Incidentally, many young people (yes, I know how that sounds) do not know how useful a good engineering calculator can be and do not want to learn how to use one. They are missing out. Yes, there is a steep learning curve, but the rewards are significant if you do any amount of calculation in your hobby or work. No, this is not replaced by typing "python" (or "bc", or anything else, really) at your command prompt.

        > Why not? At least I can easily copy the results and the code to a document which avoids transcription errors. Or do you mean that there simply isn't a program that has the functions you use?

        My guess it's the ergonomics between a specialized tool and a non-specialized one. Technically, python may be able to replace "a good engineering calculator," but so can ASM. No one would even ask "Why non ASM?," because its ergonomics are near-universally understood to be so poor, but the same issues can apply to more popular tools like python, just less obviously.

        • 7thaccount 6 hours ago

          I'm a calculator nut who has had many fancy TI (like the Voyage 200) and HP calculators (yes RPN) including the SwissMicro reproductions.

          The ONLY benefit to these tools that I can surmise is basically that they are a physical device for scientists or others in the lab or field and not in front of a computer.

          For any kind of data work I've seen, Excel, R, Python, Mathematica, or Matlab are all vastly superior. They allow faster entry, can show large amounts of data on screen, can allow for saving large amounts of data ...etc.

          • hggigg 5 hours ago

            Some of us (mathematics side) still actually work on paper with calculators. Most of the job is thinking which tooling doesn’t necessarily improve.

          • exe34 5 hours ago

            yeah after a decade in my job, I have a ton of utility functions in python that I reach for when given a new request to think through something. I doubt a smaller screen where I have to type in stuff and then copy out results would make it any easier.

            • jwr 5 hours ago

              This thread is making my point for me rather well.

        • 0x1ceb00da 11 minutes ago

          We need a concrete example.

      • hggigg 5 hours ago

        You just write the stuff down or translate it to LaTeX.

        Incidentally the 50G (and Prime) has a decent CAS built in which seems to get stuck less than some other commercial ones.

    • agateau 6 hours ago

      I loved my HP 48G when I was in school (even if it was much slower than the Ti 81 it replaced when it came to graphing). I regret throwing it away because of the nostalgia, but I don't feel a need for using it these days.

      As such I am genuinely curious about what rewards you get from using an engineering calculator in your work. That's an honest question: I would really like to have an excuse to get my hands on a 48G again!

    • perth 5 hours ago

      TBH TI-89 titanium is a better engineering calculator since the UI is way better. I have both a HP50G and a TI-89 titanium and I've done way more useful engineering work on the TI-89 titanium just because it's so much easier and accessible. Also of course, BASIC is a lot easier than reverse polish lisp for making some quick scripts.

      Also I will add, there are known symbolic math issues on the HP50G due to the CAS system it uses. I will see if I can find a link.

      • hggigg 4 hours ago

        I've used both extensively. I disagree with this. I dislike the HP48 series but I dislike the TI89 more. It's probably because most people don't understand how to use the 50G properly. You really need to go through the HP training video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTPruRVV-e8 ). Incidentally if you haven't watched that it's worth watching on its own - great production! In an engineering context, the 48-series was designed to produce small composable reusable programs and tools in the file tree which can be executed quickly.

        Try a quick EE example for parallel resistor calculation that takes 2 and puts 1 value back on stack

        << 1/X SWAP 1/X + 1/X >>

        Store that in RPAR in whatever directory you want or HOME. Then you whack in 2 resistors and hit the RPAR F-key. There is nothing faster or more efficient than that.

        I still use a 15C all the time though. Even easier! 99% of what I do is on paper though and ends up getting chucked in the numeric solver.

    • hggigg 5 hours ago

      I never liked the 48 series or the 50G (I own both) that much. I can never remember how to use them half of the time. I always end up back with my 38 year old HP 15c. That has done me through separate engineering and mathematics degrees and about 30 years worth of jobs.

      They just issued new ones as well! (HP 15CE)

    • rhelz 4 hours ago

      // many young people (yes, I know how that sounds) do not know how useful a good engineering calculator //

      It's ok, I sound like that too. The problem is that in order to be acceptable for school use, calculators have to be so lobotomized that they are useless for real engineering work. The keyboard cannot be qwerty, it has to have lockdown modes which shut off functionality, etc etc.

      Frankly, as a math teacher, I'd be just as happy if my students could program their calculators to help them on assignments and tests.

      // I wish there was a good HP50G emulator for iOS//

      A calculator has to have buttons man :-)

  • PaulHoule 9 hours ago

    I am a fan of the HP Prime

    https://hpcalcs.com/product/hp-prime-graphing-calculator/

    But I use it in algebraic instead of RPN mode. I’ve got a 49g and a 50-something too.

    People say it is pricey but I managed to get one discounted that was intended for the Latin American market. So is the thing that software is supposed to run on.

    • Mister_Snuggles 7 hours ago

      I have a Prime G2 and the RPN mode is just bad. It feels like it was an afterthought, and some things just don't seem to work properly in that mode.

      My 48G+ is a much, much better RPN calculator.

      The Prime G2 is also missing the equation library from the 48G+, which I found weird. Maybe they expect you to download what you need instead of using space in Flash for it.

      • PaulHoule 7 hours ago

        That's my take on the RPN mode but I like the algebraic mode and agree the 48 series is way better for RPN.

        (My favorite HP calc was the 28, which I bought when the 48 was available. I discovered soon afterwards that a powerful spring will eventually break the battery door and it seemed to be a problem that no engineering student managed to solve.)

        • downut 5 hours ago

          I use my 32S (lives on my monitor pedestal next to my 8087 chip) weekly. When I was doing floating point/integer bit twiddling the 'base' key was my deeply appreciated friend. But that was 36 years ago. RPN (if trained into the brain) really is faster and I love how the register transfers work.

          Nowadays when I'm not feeling especially tactile I tend to reach for the Free42 Android app, which lives in a stack with the 32S. If I ever get bored, I'm going to relearn how to program them both. Next time around on the wheel, likely, if I have hands.

          I've replaced the battery on the 32S twice. Suck on that, modernity.

    • nxobject 7 hours ago

      I'd recommend eBay, too, if you're within the continental US. This might be sacrilege, but after using a TI-89 I shifted to an TI Nspire CAS, since it has one of the highest-resolution screens in the market and still uses AAA batteries – I paid only $25 on eBay.

      • PaulHoule 7 hours ago

        Those are pretty good.

        I was thinking the other day about all the electromechanical devices such as Walkman cassette tapes and portable minidisc players that Sony got to work with just one AA battery as opposed to the usual two.

    • wslh 5 hours ago

      I have an HP Prime (and older ones such as the 48gx). I don't know why they remove the "undo" button from the Prime since it is necessary when perform mistakes.

  • tooltechgeek 3 hours ago

    The Casio fx-9750GIII though very poorly named is a gem full of functionality from python, to spreadsheet and even a text editor and very low priced for what it does. If HP made a similar product with RPN it would be a game changer.

  • Ringz 7 hours ago

    I still have a HP48GX in perfect condition and love it. One of my first programs was to calculate how much „slower“ my time is running when I drive a car or fly in a plane compared to someone standing still on the sidewalk.

    I still find it much more comfortable having a real calculator… call me old fashioned.

  • SomeHacker44 10 hours ago

    Spectacular project by one gentleman. Been using it for a while now on my Swissmicros.

  • whartung 10 hours ago

    Seems like a really nice effort.

    Nice they crammed it into the DM42 machines.

    But for me, the learning curve is steeper than the utility. I have no real need for an actual calculator, I rely on my phone. On there I have iHP48, and I've already gone through much of that learning curve to make it useful (back in the day with an original one).

    If you already have the DM42, I guess its a mostly compatible upgrade from that, to make stepping into it easier.

    • topspin 9 hours ago

      > Seems like a really nice effort.

      Does it? Another powerful calculating engine trapped behind a skeuomorph interface?

      Here[1] is a really nice effort that, sadly, hasn't been updated in 14 years and only runs on Windows. It's a wonderful 606kB math REPL that can probably do everything DB48X can do, except it foregoes all the 1970's portable calculator nonsense, making it about a thousand times more useful.

      I have a nascent clone of this written in Rust using egui and rug, that is currently stalled because -- on bleeping Windows -- the former has problems with MinGW the latter has problems with MSVC... which makes me want to tear my hair out. I wait, patiently, for egui to get their MinGW ducks in a row because I have no hope that the GMP/MPFR/MPC stack is ever going to work on MSVC in my lifetime.

      [1] https://speqmath.com/

      • whartung 8 hours ago

        > Does it? Another powerful calculating engine trapped behind a skeuomorph interface?

        Yes, it does. This is not a calculator app. It's calculator firmware that happens to also be runnable in an app.

        They're trying to cram a HP48ish calculator into an HP42 clone calculator body, while retaining much of the UX of the calculator they're replacing.

        The HP42 is the direct successor of the HP41 without the hardware interfaces and gizmos. Its essentially software compatible with the 41.

        The HP48 (and -28) are completely different animals, from ground up hardware redesign to the notable RPL (Reverse Polish Lisp) foundations, and just in raw functionality as well. The 28/48 series had symbolic solvers and graphing (among a laundry list of other things), both novel at the time.

        If you wanted an RPL based system in stand alone hardware with real buttons, you were stuck with legacy calculators. This fits in the modern DM42 system.

      • qwezxcrty 8 hours ago

        Calculator is for quick and dirty math in the field or in a lab, saving me from taking out the laptop from backpack or abandoning my optics alignment exercise and getting to the workstation on the other end of the table.

        In other cases when I have convenient access to a computer, I'll use a proper math software like Matlab/Mathematica or whatever open source alternative. It's just a different use case.

      • jiehong 6 hours ago

        Some newer terminal based implementation of something similar is Numbat [0], for example.

        For a GUI calculator similar to seqmath, but cross platform, try speedcrunch [1].

        [0]: https://numbat.dev/

        [1]: https://heldercorreia.bitbucket.io/speedcrunch/

      • gompertz 8 hours ago

        Thanks this is a great recommendation - runs perfect in Wine. There definitely seems to be a habit with developers making calculators that still fall into a 70s form factor. This is a great departure.

        • topspin 2 hours ago

          I really do want to clone that thing, except cross platform, and enhanced with 64 bit native math. I want the same exact REPL calculator and function library running natively and starting instantly from a no-install binary on every platform I might ever touch.

      • epse 8 hours ago

        Is there a significant difference between that package and SageMath / XCas / Octave and friends? While a bit arcane, I've always been a great fan of xcas

        • topspin 2 hours ago

          Yes. SpeQ math, is extremely small, starts instantly and stands alone with no complex runtime.

    • linguae 8 hours ago

      I feel the same way about not needing a physical calculator. I have an HP-48SX and an HP-15C Collector’s Edition. I enjoy these devices; they are high-quality and are exemplary products. However, as a professor I have regular access to my laptop, which can run circles around my handheld calculators. For quick calculations I open up the terminal and use the dc command, which is a command-line RPN calculator. For more involved computations, I have Python and Common Lisp REPLs, and I also sometimes use Microsoft Excel.

      These days handheld calculators seem to be used the most in situations where people are restricted from using laptops and smartphones, such as during exams or in distraction-free settings. I think the reason Texas Instruments still has a viable calculator business is because TI markets heavily in the education market.

    • stonogo 9 hours ago

      This is also an iphone app.

  • mongol 5 hours ago

    The form factor of an HP48 or similar calculator is very attractive. Good tactile buttons in a format slightly laeger than a modern smartphone. I imagine it could work as a very good companion to a smartphone ifbit had modern comoute capacity and memory plus some modern I/O interfaces like USB or Bluetooth.

  • hajile 9 hours ago

    As a DM42 owner who loves RPL, this is an exciting project.

  • codefeenix 2 hours ago

    If some sufficiently intense compute calculations were ran, will the display that shows the battery voltage drop?

  • roflmaostc 10 hours ago

    somehow doesn't work on my Ubuntu Firefox 131.0.3 but works on my Arch 132.0.

    • Aardwolf 8 hours ago

      Same, shows JavaScript error:

      "Uncaught ReferenceError: SharedArrayBuffer is not defined at db48x.js:615:40"

      Both in Chrome and Firefox (both are up to date to versions way beyond where SharedArrayBuffer should have been introduced)

      I think they should either use ArrayBuffer, or use https instead of http, apparently SharedArrayBuffer has security restrictions

    • thought_alarm 8 hours ago
    • grantmnz 8 hours ago

      Apparently, for security reasons, your server needs to add certain headers if you want to use SharedArrayBuffers.

      https://hacks.mozilla.org/2020/07/safely-reviving-shared-mem...

  • anyfoo 10 hours ago

    Seems great. How does this compare to Free42? https://thomasokken.com/free42/

    • chowells 10 hours ago

      Well, it's based on the hp48 instead of the hp42, for one. Though that button layout is not that close to the 48, either.

  • opentokix 8 hours ago

    This made me exactly the same amount as frustrated like the originals. So, good job I guess :D

  • westurner 10 hours ago

    Could this run on a TI or a NumWorks calculator?

    RPN: Reverse Polish Notation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_Polish_notation

    RPL: Reverse Polish LISP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPL_(programming_language)

  • db48x 10 hours ago

    That is really weird.

  • bell-cot 10 hours ago

    IANAL, but the logo they're using looks infringingly similar to HP's.