This obsession with replacing robust proven solutions with brittle technological toys will never cease to amaze me.
I expect the true reason lies in the fact that they can charge a recurring fee for the AI assistant but not for the buttons. I also wonder about the impact on the car battery. There is no way a call to a backend uses less energy than a car button or a touchscreen.
> This obsession with replacing robust proven solutions with brittle technological toys will never cease to amaze me.
A certain fraction of potential customers are neophiles and contrarians, who'll eagerly buy anything that's conspicuously new & different. That'll give you an initial burst of sales...but what next? In many types of consumer products, you can crank out something new & different every week or few. In automotive, not so much.
Ever had a (lightly) sleeping baby in the car? Glad it finally got to sleep after hours worth of crying? Maybe, just maybe, I don't want to risk asking a voice assistant to turn up or down the AC. Scenario also works for sleeping co-driver.
Buttons are fine. Even though I prefer driving EVs, the reliance on touchscreen/ voice for everything is just annoying. At least for the most common functions like volume control, AC and stuff.
Yea, it’s a big disadvantage for EVs that they are being sold with crappy touchscreen instead of buttons and dials, and even the charging is a worse experience than filling gas because of ridiculous apps that barely works!
I was driving a Polestar in the UK, fantastic car, but many chargers wouldn’t work because of my non-UK debit cards… tried many of them, for months.
Now imagine being the designated driver on a night out and all your drunk friends shouting commands at the car while you're trying to drive. "Rivian, turn the headlights off!".
Tactile buttons allow a driver to keep their eyes on the road while making adjustments. People making these decisions likely only ever ride in the back seats of luxury black cars. Something needs to change, because the Idiocracy Slow Burn has been going on too long and it's only getting worse.
> People making these decisions likely only ever ride in the back seats of luxury black cars
Nuh, it's simpler than that. He makes money from cars not having buttons, that's all. He says whatever he has to say to increase his profits, regardless of whether he believes it, or whether it makes sense.
And what if somebody loses their voice? What if somebody has strong accent, like people in the south? What are about people who can't talk? What about people who stutter? What if you are talking in the phone and need to change "voice only" setting?
I am orienting myself on going from a gas hob in the kitchen to an electric induction one. Plenty of choice now of course, but what immediately triggered both my wife's and my own sense of “I want one of those” was looking at the few modern cookers with actual knobs on them, just like our gas hob has.
I've used induction hobs, but I've never found them pleasant to control with the touch controls. There is something so utterly ergonomic and pleasant about physical knobs and buttons. It doesn't matter that they perform digital rather than analogue, mechanical actions.
It's a premium feature, but at least it exists. It's disheartening that this is considered either a premium feature or branded as outdated.
One of the things I love in my induction is that there are no buttons. As a matter of fact, it is the fact that it is completely flat.
Cleaning it is super simple, if I get liquids I do not worry that they will spill into something (like knobs).
There is one very important thing though: I specifically looked only for linear scale. A scale what you can press a position and get to the right level (rough "hot", or "very low heat) and slide to adjust when needed.
My brother has one where you have to press 9 times to get to 9. And then 6 times down to get to 3. This is insane.
I wouldn't want knobs on the top either, so I'm looking at whole stoves (i.e., a single unit with an oven under the hob) where the knobs are in the same place as the common gas stove models: in the front above the oven door, next to the oven's knobs.
If I choose to splurge on this item, this one might be nice:
I was looking for something like that for my parents (who refuse to have a "across-the-kitchen" kind of working surface with the induction and sink going into a hole from the top) but it was quite difficult to find them.
The "induction as an object that enters into the hole of the work surface" (sorry, I am not a native speaker of English and there is certainly a word for that :)) seems to be way, way more popular and I could really find what I needed.
The reason a lot of induction cook tops don't have knobs is because they're worried it will be bumped and accidentally turned on. Good knobs will have detents for off.
The principle of an induction stove prevents it from heating up without cookware placed on it. On top of that, any induction stove I‘ve used detects if it‘s turned on without cookware and turns itself off after a couple of seconds.
It doesn‘t get safer than this.
Absolutely. Compared to gas knobs which when turned on without igniting the flame will just flood your home with an inflammable gas. Still, I have one of those now, and beyond the usual “did I turn the gas off?” frittering on holiday, this is never an issue. In fact, most households in the Netherlands still have this type of hob or stove (the percentage is lower but still considerable in many other countries).
Did they really anchor this idea with consumers? Or is it one of those “consumers just want a faster horse” things where they believe they can present users with what they really want rather than what they say they want?
Because I have never used a voice assistant even to set a timer when cooking pasta and I probably will never speak to a machine if there is an awkward button I could use instead.
I understand buttons are ugly and expensive. But a few buttons and dials for everything you need while driving seems like the perfect balance. You only need climate, wipers, lights, sound level, and that’s about it. Nav, setup, media selection etc can be touch.
For what it's worth, I do regularly set timers with Alexa when cooking, and I still hate using voice controls in the car... With timers the alternative is also a multi step process with probably smudgy hands, whereas just one button press to turn down AC will evolve into "turn down more, turn down more" with voice
It’s a multi step process with voice too though (at least if you have to enable the listening with a button, because there is zero chance I’m having a hot mic in my pocket or on a shelf somewhere).
This is where government regulation is immportant. EV manufacturers want to push innovation, and that's cool, but we're talking about vehicles here, things that might be the difference between life and death.
So let them play in their prototypes, but don't let them fill the roads with dangerous voice assisted vehicles that will fail in critical moments.
I'm surprised NHTSA doesn't mandate that the touchscreen be locked out while the car is moving because it requires visual attention to operate. I think future people will look back on this blunder and consider it up there with leaded gasoline.
I have more than enough trouble to tuch any buttons in an fancy ui which is changing after every software-update. you have to search them, then you have to touch them correctly, all while the car is shaking or whatever. And all that while you have better use for your eyes in keeping it straight out of the car and observing the traffic outside.
Physical buttons can be "feeled". In the dark, when you know where they are and your muscle-memory got used to their position any you can keep your eyes ot in the traffic.
I wonder how hard it would be to design an EV like a horse and carriage, each with their own wheels. So that you could buy the best "horse" and still have a "carriage" designed how you like, instead of by idiots like this. And you could swap out the horse for longer journeys.
I like the buttons in my (now practically antique) 2007 Mazda 3, but voice sounds miles better than updating my car and ending up with a janky touch screen that takes my focus off the road, the layout and responsiveness changing randomly with OTA updates.
However this:
> For instance, he said if a driver says “I’m hungry” the in-car assistant should be able to quickly direct them to a nearby restaurant that they might prefer.
"Ideally, you would want to interact with your car through voice. "
ridiculous. "turn the volume down!" might not work too well for example. And are we expected to say "high beam", "low beam", "indicate left" etc constantly?
This guy's opinions are a recipe for inferior product design. Maybe someone inside of Rivian can pitch him on programmable buttons. This way drivers still get the physical buttons and switches they need, but the chief software office can still preserve and grown his corporate fiefdom--which is what this is all about, I fear.
Give me buttons, give me knobs, give me sliders, give me levers, give me switches.I if I can’t operate my car systems by feel, then I can’t operate them while I’m driving.
First thing I did with my current car was replace the stereo with one that has physical playback control buttons, a physical volume knob, and Bluetooth. God I can’t stand touchscreens in cars.
Delusional. Have these people never spoken to a human? The LAST thing, even less than fumbling on some touch interface in a moving vehicle is trying to vocalize commands.
I think this only confirms he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. These auto designers really need to spend a few months at the NTSB or an air accident investigation agency before they are allowed to design cars.
> he said if a driver says “I’m hungry” the in-car assistant should be able to quickly direct them to a nearby restaurant that they might prefer.
Sounds like loner consumerism to me.
What if the driver making a statement to someone else in the car?
Does it respond only to the driver, or also to the bored kid wanting food simply as a distraction?
Why suggest a restaurant instead of, say, the sandwiches the driver brought?
Who gets to prioritize which restaurant to mention?
Why suggest a restaurant and not grocery store?
Or, make a statement like "you are five minutes from home, you can wait", or "what? You just had lunch 45 minutes ago and you've been complaining about your weight, so drink some water instead."
"Hey car, turn on the, hmm, front lights but not on full if you know what I mean" is something that will need handled more often than one might assume... not easy.
It takes longer and requires more effort for me to vocally ask my car to change the fan/temp/seat (heat,cooling,position)/etc than to simply bump a switch/knob.
I love a screen for configuring my front dash and another one for maps, certain settings, etc. But you absolutely should have tactile interfaces for various things.
It's interesting to see all the comments about how physical buttons help keep your eyes on the road, but I’ve actually had the opposite experience. I'm probably not the typical driver, though—I tend to set everything just the way I want before starting a trip. While driving, I only adjust basic controls like the air conditioning, wipers, blinkers, and cruise control, all of which I can do in my Tesla without taking my eyes off the road.
Recently, I drove a Volvo and a Polestar and found that using physical buttons required me to look down to see what I was pressing. Even after over 20 hours of driving, I couldn’t adapt back to physical buttons scattered across the dashboard. I really missed the streamlined, contextual controls I’m used to.
I've got a full analog Fiat Punto 2017 and almost fully digital VW Polo 2024 and I find the second one more dangerous, distracting, I just can't but hate it (I know it might be me).
When I lease cars abroad the more digital they are, the more complex I find them to use and the more annoyed I am.
To be honest, pretty much everything that gets more digital I hate it, even more than cars it applies to house appliances. Wi-fi connected dish washers, smartphone-controlled ovens, smart fridges, they create more problems while solving made up ones.
Will it work if the company stops supporting it after 6 years or goes bankrupt? (https://www.businessinsider.com/fisker-owners-describe-chaos...)
This obsession with replacing robust proven solutions with brittle technological toys will never cease to amaze me.
I expect the true reason lies in the fact that they can charge a recurring fee for the AI assistant but not for the buttons. I also wonder about the impact on the car battery. There is no way a call to a backend uses less energy than a car button or a touchscreen.
> This obsession with replacing robust proven solutions with brittle technological toys will never cease to amaze me.
A certain fraction of potential customers are neophiles and contrarians, who'll eagerly buy anything that's conspicuously new & different. That'll give you an initial burst of sales...but what next? In many types of consumer products, you can crank out something new & different every week or few. In automotive, not so much.
Ever had a (lightly) sleeping baby in the car? Glad it finally got to sleep after hours worth of crying? Maybe, just maybe, I don't want to risk asking a voice assistant to turn up or down the AC. Scenario also works for sleeping co-driver.
Buttons are fine. Even though I prefer driving EVs, the reliance on touchscreen/ voice for everything is just annoying. At least for the most common functions like volume control, AC and stuff.
Yea, it’s a big disadvantage for EVs that they are being sold with crappy touchscreen instead of buttons and dials, and even the charging is a worse experience than filling gas because of ridiculous apps that barely works!
I was driving a Polestar in the UK, fantastic car, but many chargers wouldn’t work because of my non-UK debit cards… tried many of them, for months.
This is just the tip of the iceberg example.
Now imagine being the designated driver on a night out and all your drunk friends shouting commands at the car while you're trying to drive. "Rivian, turn the headlights off!".
Tactile buttons allow a driver to keep their eyes on the road while making adjustments. People making these decisions likely only ever ride in the back seats of luxury black cars. Something needs to change, because the Idiocracy Slow Burn has been going on too long and it's only getting worse.
> People making these decisions likely only ever ride in the back seats of luxury black cars
Nuh, it's simpler than that. He makes money from cars not having buttons, that's all. He says whatever he has to say to increase his profits, regardless of whether he believes it, or whether it makes sense.
“It’s a bug. It’s not a feature"
Sorry, I have to disagree.
Touch screen is a bug, not a feature because it requires a shift in focus away from driving.
Physical controls provide tactical feedback and spatial assurance that the correct function has been selected sight unseen.
I shouldn't need to look away from the road to enable signals or wipers.
That said, I do agree with the potential of voice control for nonessential functions such as environmental or entertainment.
And what if somebody loses their voice? What if somebody has strong accent, like people in the south? What are about people who can't talk? What about people who stutter? What if you are talking in the phone and need to change "voice only" setting?
Stop the car --- then use a touch screen backup for these *NONESSENTIAL* functions. Stopping is inconvenient but so is an accident.
Using a touch screen phone while driving is illegal in most areas for a reason. Building the touch screen into the car doesn't change the logic.
I am orienting myself on going from a gas hob in the kitchen to an electric induction one. Plenty of choice now of course, but what immediately triggered both my wife's and my own sense of “I want one of those” was looking at the few modern cookers with actual knobs on them, just like our gas hob has.
I've used induction hobs, but I've never found them pleasant to control with the touch controls. There is something so utterly ergonomic and pleasant about physical knobs and buttons. It doesn't matter that they perform digital rather than analogue, mechanical actions.
It's a premium feature, but at least it exists. It's disheartening that this is considered either a premium feature or branded as outdated.
One of the things I love in my induction is that there are no buttons. As a matter of fact, it is the fact that it is completely flat.
Cleaning it is super simple, if I get liquids I do not worry that they will spill into something (like knobs).
There is one very important thing though: I specifically looked only for linear scale. A scale what you can press a position and get to the right level (rough "hot", or "very low heat) and slide to adjust when needed.
My brother has one where you have to press 9 times to get to 9. And then 6 times down to get to 3. This is insane.
I wouldn't want knobs on the top either, so I'm looking at whole stoves (i.e., a single unit with an oven under the hob) where the knobs are in the same place as the common gas stove models: in the front above the oven door, next to the oven's knobs.
If I choose to splurge on this item, this one might be nice:
https://etna.nl/keukenapparatuur/fi590zwa/
Smeg has a similar sweet looking offering, but I'm not convinced of the longevity of their appliances:
https://www.smeg.com/products/C9IMMB2
I was looking for something like that for my parents (who refuse to have a "across-the-kitchen" kind of working surface with the induction and sink going into a hole from the top) but it was quite difficult to find them.
The "induction as an object that enters into the hole of the work surface" (sorry, I am not a native speaker of English and there is certainly a word for that :)) seems to be way, way more popular and I could really find what I needed.
The reason a lot of induction cook tops don't have knobs is because they're worried it will be bumped and accidentally turned on. Good knobs will have detents for off.
https://www.samsung.com/us/support/range-knob-kit/
The principle of an induction stove prevents it from heating up without cookware placed on it. On top of that, any induction stove I‘ve used detects if it‘s turned on without cookware and turns itself off after a couple of seconds. It doesn‘t get safer than this.
Absolutely. Compared to gas knobs which when turned on without igniting the flame will just flood your home with an inflammable gas. Still, I have one of those now, and beyond the usual “did I turn the gas off?” frittering on holiday, this is never an issue. In fact, most households in the Netherlands still have this type of hob or stove (the percentage is lower but still considerable in many other countries).
How does this specifically apply to induction devices? Wouldn’t all cook tops not have knobs then?
Did they really anchor this idea with consumers? Or is it one of those “consumers just want a faster horse” things where they believe they can present users with what they really want rather than what they say they want?
Because I have never used a voice assistant even to set a timer when cooking pasta and I probably will never speak to a machine if there is an awkward button I could use instead.
I understand buttons are ugly and expensive. But a few buttons and dials for everything you need while driving seems like the perfect balance. You only need climate, wipers, lights, sound level, and that’s about it. Nav, setup, media selection etc can be touch.
For what it's worth, I do regularly set timers with Alexa when cooking, and I still hate using voice controls in the car... With timers the alternative is also a multi step process with probably smudgy hands, whereas just one button press to turn down AC will evolve into "turn down more, turn down more" with voice
It’s a multi step process with voice too though (at least if you have to enable the listening with a button, because there is zero chance I’m having a hot mic in my pocket or on a shelf somewhere).
This is where government regulation is immportant. EV manufacturers want to push innovation, and that's cool, but we're talking about vehicles here, things that might be the difference between life and death.
So let them play in their prototypes, but don't let them fill the roads with dangerous voice assisted vehicles that will fail in critical moments.
Me: "Rivian, turn on the wipers."
Rivian: "Sure thing, now playing George Michael!"
This sounds like a joke, but I experienced literally this in my Prius:
- Navigate home.
- Ok, showing nearby ski resorts.
So... did you end up going to a ski resort? How was it?
In my opinion, Id Say " Lets be clear - replacement of buttons with touch screens is driven by manufacturer lowering costs. "
"... and all profits from that going to CEO".
Gotta finish your sentences, men.
Bottom line:
Stay away from Rivian, they don’t have a clue what customers want.
Heck, even if customers want it, it's objectively (as in: it kills people) a terrible idea.
I'm surprised NHTSA doesn't mandate that the touchscreen be locked out while the car is moving because it requires visual attention to operate. I think future people will look back on this blunder and consider it up there with leaded gasoline.
Some sensible manufacturers do this anyway without a mandate.
I have more than enough trouble to tuch any buttons in an fancy ui which is changing after every software-update. you have to search them, then you have to touch them correctly, all while the car is shaking or whatever. And all that while you have better use for your eyes in keeping it straight out of the car and observing the traffic outside.
Physical buttons can be "feeled". In the dark, when you know where they are and your muscle-memory got used to their position any you can keep your eyes ot in the traffic.
Be thankful. It's creating few software engineer /s
I wonder how hard it would be to design an EV like a horse and carriage, each with their own wheels. So that you could buy the best "horse" and still have a "carriage" designed how you like, instead of by idiots like this. And you could swap out the horse for longer journeys.
Stellantis' chief designer said something similar yesterday, believing voice controls are the future: https://www.youtube.com/live/NdVdr9mU_XA?si=P4keeOK9uXb2TgXc...
They all copy each other and move in the same direction.
After touch screens everywhere I fear this means the next wave will be voice control everywhere...
Why not both?
I like the buttons in my (now practically antique) 2007 Mazda 3, but voice sounds miles better than updating my car and ending up with a janky touch screen that takes my focus off the road, the layout and responsiveness changing randomly with OTA updates.
However this:
> For instance, he said if a driver says “I’m hungry” the in-car assistant should be able to quickly direct them to a nearby restaurant that they might prefer.
sounds like more adtech hellscape.
Wouldn't that be because decent vehicles are an anomaly?
Rivian's chief software officer is an anomaly.
"Ideally, you would want to interact with your car through voice. "
ridiculous. "turn the volume down!" might not work too well for example. And are we expected to say "high beam", "low beam", "indicate left" etc constantly?
This guy's opinions are a recipe for inferior product design. Maybe someone inside of Rivian can pitch him on programmable buttons. This way drivers still get the physical buttons and switches they need, but the chief software office can still preserve and grown his corporate fiefdom--which is what this is all about, I fear.
Give me buttons, give me knobs, give me sliders, give me levers, give me switches.I if I can’t operate my car systems by feel, then I can’t operate them while I’m driving.
First thing I did with my current car was replace the stereo with one that has physical playback control buttons, a physical volume knob, and Bluetooth. God I can’t stand touchscreens in cars.
Delusional. Have these people never spoken to a human? The LAST thing, even less than fumbling on some touch interface in a moving vehicle is trying to vocalize commands.
Music too loud? VOLUME DOWN. VOLUME! DOWN!
Down! Even more down! Keep going down!
I think this only confirms he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. These auto designers really need to spend a few months at the NTSB or an air accident investigation agency before they are allowed to design cars.
> he said if a driver says “I’m hungry” the in-car assistant should be able to quickly direct them to a nearby restaurant that they might prefer.
Sounds like loner consumerism to me.
What if the driver making a statement to someone else in the car?
Does it respond only to the driver, or also to the bored kid wanting food simply as a distraction?
Why suggest a restaurant instead of, say, the sandwiches the driver brought?
Who gets to prioritize which restaurant to mention?
Why suggest a restaurant and not grocery store?
Or, make a statement like "you are five minutes from home, you can wait", or "what? You just had lunch 45 minutes ago and you've been complaining about your weight, so drink some water instead."
You've figured out why Google maps doesn't cost you money to use for directions.
When someone taught me that 15 years ago was when I started my path away from using Google. What's left are Google Scholar and Google Translate.
"Hey car, turn on the, hmm, front lights but not on full if you know what I mean" is something that will need handled more often than one might assume... not easy.
It takes longer and requires more effort for me to vocally ask my car to change the fan/temp/seat (heat,cooling,position)/etc than to simply bump a switch/knob.
I love a screen for configuring my front dash and another one for maps, certain settings, etc. But you absolutely should have tactile interfaces for various things.
I prefer more physical buttons, not less, and I think it's safer even if it adds cost.
Money from lowering cost goes to CEO anyways, so who cares.
“It’s a bug. It’s not a feature”
Typical Silicon Valley blah blah. The button is an evolution. A solution to a problem from before computers and voice assistants were a thing.
How can we show that we disagree apart from ignoring threir products. Short selling?
It's interesting to see all the comments about how physical buttons help keep your eyes on the road, but I’ve actually had the opposite experience. I'm probably not the typical driver, though—I tend to set everything just the way I want before starting a trip. While driving, I only adjust basic controls like the air conditioning, wipers, blinkers, and cruise control, all of which I can do in my Tesla without taking my eyes off the road.
Recently, I drove a Volvo and a Polestar and found that using physical buttons required me to look down to see what I was pressing. Even after over 20 hours of driving, I couldn’t adapt back to physical buttons scattered across the dashboard. I really missed the streamlined, contextual controls I’m used to.
Yeah, I can't relate even a bit with any of this.
I've got a full analog Fiat Punto 2017 and almost fully digital VW Polo 2024 and I find the second one more dangerous, distracting, I just can't but hate it (I know it might be me).
When I lease cars abroad the more digital they are, the more complex I find them to use and the more annoyed I am.
To be honest, pretty much everything that gets more digital I hate it, even more than cars it applies to house appliances. Wi-fi connected dish washers, smartphone-controlled ovens, smart fridges, they create more problems while solving made up ones.