No mention that the British Cunard liners, like the Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth, were subsidised by the government.
The government loved having big fast ships it could requisition as troup carriers. The two queens were too fast to be intercepted by uboats. Mary moved 800k troups in WW2
As late as 1982 the Canberra was requisitioned and sent to the Falkland Islands conflict.
Yeah the title is a bit deceptive; nobody in their right mind tries to "save" an old cruise ship. A home rental company here (idk what they're called) invested in buying an old ocean liner (the SS Rotterdam) to convert it to housing or an event center, it was a flop that cost them over a hundred million euros and led to a parlimentary investigation - since they're a housing company, that >100 million should have been spent on building and maintaining their properties, including social housing, instead of risky investments in asbestos-ridden old ships.
The City of Long Beach itself did as a way to promote tourism. It was government funded and turned into a financial disaster too, with management of the ship changing hands a bunch of times because it wasn’t financially viable.
My favorite anecdote of this is talking with railroad people. Talking about rolling stock, and locomotives.
And talking with someone (at a museum, or something, I don't recall) they mentioned something like "Yea, we think we all of the locomotives tracked down, but there's always the chance one might be in someones private collection somewhere."
And I just have to marvel at the idea that someone, somewhere, has a locomotive shoved in a barn somewhere out of public view. This isn't Steve McQueens Bullit Mustangs under a tarp somewhere. It's a locomotive!
I had a friend that collected pinball machines, that was an endeavor all its own.
It's a short article in a travel magazine, about one guy's adventures sneaking into scrapping facilities to snag a few trinkets. A pretty niche topic.
From the editor's PoV, your facts aren't relevant to the article. And, by travel magazine standards, he's already slipped in a boatload of more-relevant cruise industry negatives.
Exactly. In terms of CO2 emissions, you're better off flying to a tropical destination and booking a hotel. The cruise ship will burn much more fuel than the jet per passenger in just a couple of days. If you stay on the thing for a month, it's going to be an order of magnitude more. There's nothing green or clean about these things.
They also have a huge ecological impact on the destinations they go to; some of which may have fragile coral reefs or other marine life that doesn't respond to well to the presence of waste dumping cruise ships. The Venetian lagoon is now off limits for cruise ships. But that's because it has sustained a lot of damage over the years. A lot of other destinations are still being actively destroyed by cruise ship tourism.
The estimates I'm seeing is that cruise ships are about 2x-3x the emissions per kilometer than flying to a destination and staying there (obviously, it varies with a lot of factors). So if you were flying to a nearby island, you would have fewer CO2 emissions. But something like a trip to Thailand could end up having more CO2 emissions than a cruise.
It is kind of strange, though, that I always hear about the carbon foot print when cruises get brought up, but I almost never hear about it when vacationing in general is brought up. It seems like if people were really concerned, they'd be telling people to go to local beaches and not beaches on the other side of the planet, but I've never seen people say "Don't go to Malaysia! If you go to Cancun you'll be creating much lower CO2 emissions."
I get the feeling that cruise ships in particular are targeted because, unlike trips to Southeast Asia, going on a cruise ship is considered "uncool."
Plenty of folks say "try not to fly" in general (was it France that banned short haul flights for trains recently?) but "don't take that long haul to where you've dreamed of your whole life" is a significantly less practical pitch than "well if you want to see the Caribbean spend more time there by taking a more eco-friendly flight rather riding on a cruise ship".
> but "don't take that long haul to where you've dreamed of your whole life" is a significantly less practical pitch than "well if you want to see the Caribbean spend more time there by taking a more eco-friendly flight rather riding on a cruise ship".
This framing is already putting a pretty strong bias into it. Your preferred vacation is something "you've dreamed of your whole life," while their preferred vacations is simply how they prefer to "ride" to a location.
One could also say that "don't take that cruise you always dreamed of your whole life" is a significantly less practical pitch than "well if you want to go to a beach, go to a beach closer to your house."
Both of that statement and yours treat something that most people consider extremely important (being on a cruise, having the beach they go to be in South East Asia) as being merely incidental to the vacation itself.
I'd agree there is bias but argue the framing is highlighting, not introducing, it. E.g. how many wanting to take a cruise are just as happy with Norfolk, Baltimore, and Wilmington as stops vs San Juan, St. Thomas, and St Martin? I'm sure someone out there is but they are certainly going to be the minority. In a cruise where you are going is still a central part of the vacation and you can keep a large part of that even if you remove the ship. In your alternative you're throwing out the entire trip with the bathwater - one is a compromise, the other a full sacrifice. No matter how you want to slice that it's a much more grating pitch for the average tourist.
> I'd agree there is bias but argue the framing is highlighting, not introducing, it. E.g. how many wanting to take a cruise are just as happy with Norfolk, Baltimore, and Wilmington as stops vs San Juan, St. Thomas, and St Martin?
That's like arguing that if someone wants to go to Phuket instead of an industrial town in Thailand, then going to Thailand isn't that important to them and they should just go to Cancun. You can't really say "unless you're happy with _any_ vacation that has X, you don't care that much about X." For almost everyone, a vacation relies on several different elements coming together.
The point was "most people dream of cruises to interesting places, not cruises themselves" and your response was "people don't want to take vacations to boring places either"? Nobody is actually going to go to boring places in these examples, they'll almost always pick the most interesting destinations because that's the most important part and the cruise ships or other things are the smaller parts. The flight is intentionally irrelevant to itself in vacations - it's the fastest (and less CO2 heavy than cruise) way to get to the important part. If the cruise were the more important part of the vacation then destination wouldn't matter was all the example was about so applying it to the destination doesn't make sense (the destination can't have a different importance than the destination).
That doesn't mean the utility of a cruise is 0, it means the utility of the cruise is less than the utility of the destination for the vacation -> an easier pitch to change the cruise rather than the destination. Say your goal is to convince someone to reduce emission for their vacation, how would you intuitively rank these in terms of "easiest pitch" to "hardest pitch" and why?
A: "I know you've always want to go to St. Martin but you should look into flying rather than a cruise because..."
B: "I know you've always wanted to go to St. Martin but you should look into <some closer beach they can drive or fly to> because..."
C: "I know you've always wanted to go to Asia but you should look into a flight to Cancun because..."
To me it I'd go the easiest is A (they still go where they want to go), then B (they still go somewhere interesting), then C (they go to the least interesting place). The latter 2 both pretty hard sells though. I'm curious if you rank B and C as easier pitches? If so that could possibly be part of the answer to your original question about why you expect people to talk about flights more than you hear? I.e. I'm not saying you must agree just that perhaps there is a difference of opinion vs most people driving that split.
> The point was "most people dream of cruises to interesting places, not cruises themselves" and your response was "people don't want to take vacations to boring places either"
No, my is that just as many people dream of going on the cruises themselves, so you can't simply slice that out and say "transportation is transportation" just like you can't simply slice out the fact that the beach someone is going to is in Thailand and not closer by. It may be an incidental part of the vacation fro some people, but the people paying more to go to Thailand are doing it because Thailand is important to them, and the people paying more to be on a cruise are doing it because a cruise is important to them.
I understand that people who don't cruises might not understand that, but that's not terribly surprising, is it? The people who do will pay vastly different prices depending on the ship they're going on, and some people say they don't even get off on certain destinations and stay aboard the ship. Depending on the individual, the destination is more incidental than the ship. This is also obvious if you notice that when people take a cruise, they are significantly decreasing their time at these destinations in order to increase their time at on the cruise, which wouldn't make any sense if the cruise was just a means to get them to a destination.
At the very least, people should notice all the people who will pay money to have a boat take them around in a circle for an hour, and realize that some people do really like just being out on the water (though cruises are usually much more than that, but it's another topic).
> The Venetian lagoon is now off limits for cruise ships. But that's because it has sustained a lot of damage over the years.
The problem with Venice is more that the cruise ships bring in large amounts of "day tourists" - they come in in the morning, eat some overpriced pizza and pasta, buy overpriced Chinese-made "authentic" souvenirs, and leave in the evening, not contributing much to the local economy.
Because the income is spread to a very few people - those lucky enough to own a pizza or coffee store along popular tourist routes. Everyone else doesn't profit at all from the tourists or makes only pittances.
That is not enough to sustain a healthy city, which led to most of Venice being left for grabs for AirBnBs - good luck finding regular Venetians actually living in their city.
Responsible tourists not only buy food and souvenirs and tours, they also hire carpenters and assistant key account managers, as well as purchase sheet metal, plastic pylons and diesel engines to support local jobs.
Saying that only very few people profit from the tourists is like saying only very few people profit from the factory behind the city.
You are totally right that only few people profit but this is the case with everything unfortunately.
Other types of tourists spend much more time in the city, they sleep in hotels, they also visit more than just the Piazza San Marco (and thus, distribute traffic flow much more evenly).
Everything you mentioned is a contribution to the local economy, though?
Tourism is €215 billion of Italy's income, about 1/10th of its GDP. Rich tourists coming off cruise ships doing impulse buys at huge profit margins sounds like a good thing to me, from a purely capitalist perspective.
It is the "local economy" only if you believe in trickle-down economics.
The area of visited by cruise ship tourists is typically a very small fraction of the port city. Worse, the establishments in that area only account for a small fraction of the overall local employment, and are owned by a handful of families or (worse) funds/corporations.
So money does flow, but not really to the local economy, apart from a number of low-paid service jobs.
You also appear to have a very outdated view of cruise ship tourism. What "rich tourists"? These days it is the less well-off that go on cruises, even choosing to cruise through their retirement as the cheaper option [1]. Nobody is going to make expensive purchases as they have already visited half a dozen ports before their current stop and have another half a dozen to go.
Problem is that it doesn't actually work that way. The boat tourist don't spend too much, or comparatively spend lot less than those that visit cities in other ways. The infra to support the ships cost money, and then usually any activities are run by ship owners. Plus full board is standard so many prefer to eat there and also sleep.
It is much more efficient to focus on tourists that live in hotels, buy every meal from local restaurants or at least shops. Have actual time to spend in more than main attractions as such diffuse over larger area. And well have more time for shopping or do it at local airport.
Wait until they hear about people travelling in camper vans that cook their own meals and just park by the roadside for sleeping! Or even worse, bicycle tourists who bivouac by the river, they don't even buy gas!
Camper vans are already a big problem for some rural areas. And they don’t tend to contribute much to the local economy. You phrased it like that was a gotcha, but it’s not really. Camper-vans and cruises are both high-impact low benefit forms of tourism.
I wouldn’t put bike tourists in that group - because they are incredibly low impact in comparison, and in my experience most bike tourists are spending money as they go - either on accommodation or food.
How many camper cans and bike tourists descend on Venice every day?
Sure, camper and bike tourists probably don’t contribute much to local economies, but they also have negligible negative impacts, so what’s your point?
I just got off a QM2 transatlantic crossing(which is about as captive/boring as cruises can get?) Friday. I went on a lark, I have never “cruised”(and had a pretty negative view of it - all people do is eat and drink etc)but had an itch to cross the ocean on a ship in old timey titanic type way. I’m also ~30(which might as well be 16 on a cunard ship - very very old crowd) and went alone. I expected this was mostly a bucket list type thing people did once, or a select coterie of people who both need to travel and cannot fly.
My most surprising takeaway was that almost everyone had done it before, a lot of people many many times. It was legitimately rare to meet a first timer, even among the relatively young group I fell into.
The boring bit is more subjective, it was more fun than I expected. I can see why people love it. “enforced” relaxation, no stops, peaceful, easy, etc.
So someone pitches you a floating city complete with amusement park, hotel, entertainment venues and restaurants that trots around the world dropping you off at nearly everything interesting on the way, and you think it sounds boring?
I don't like cruise ships for reasons, but they never struck me as 'boring '.
They are a floating mini-Vegas hotel. A lot of the same reasons people find Las Vegas fun are the same for a cruise ship, if maybe just in "miniature" (though the scale factor is now questionable on some of the huge ships), just that when you get the chance to leave the hotel you aren't stepping into Nevada desert, you've got an island beach or a cool port town to explore, and a variety of them at that.
Depends on the trip but it's more like a hotel that shows up in a different city every day, so there's something new all the time if you get off the boat.
My perspective as well. When I was high school and college I went on a few cruises with my elderly grandparents. We had a blast. Every morning you wake up in a new city without the bother of packing bags or spending any time actually going there. Unlike airports, piers are frequently in the oldest most interesting part of the city and you can directly walk to see quite a bit.
Isn't that going a little far in applying your subjective preferences to universal fact? Lots of people love cruise ships - they seem to be a pretty good business, in fact.
I see it more like having a discussion, of some things the topic triggers and are very adjacent, crticism of cruise ships fit very well with articles about cruise ships.
You may very well add more thoughts about the specific one, about saving historic cruise ships to improve the balance.
Well since they are not clean; what's the point in trying to preserve them? I'd argue getting rid of them is a good thing. Especially the older more inefficient ones.
Absolutely more than other cities. These things literally run on crude oil and dump shit (literall, and worse) unfiltered into the ocean.
Plus, as someone living a few hundred meters from a harbor that hosts these abominations, I can tell you that the kind of tourism they foster is super toxic to local politics. And, as someone engaged in local air quality measurements here, I can also tell you that they're toxic, in the literal sense, to the people living downwind from the harbor.
At this point, the only way forward I see is to outright ban these things.
Probably not. The average EU citizen living in "centuries old city centers" emits ~5.66 tCO2eq/year [1], while an analysis of cruise ship vacations for Seattle shows each passenger emitting on average ~421 kg/day [2], equaling ~153 tCO2eq/year (27x the EU average).
I wonder. From first principles, I don't quite understand how cruise ships can be that bad.
It's not obvious to me how tourists on a ship can use much more energy than of they were in a land based resort. Yes, they're moving, but ships move very efficiently, which is why it's used for bulk transport. And tourists on land also move, often by car. Or are cruise ships more comparable to cars than cargo ships in terms of movement?
The facilities themselves, pools, rides, restaurants, A/C, theatres, are all also used on land and I don't the why they would be less efficient on a ship. Unless being on a ship results in trade-offs that impact efficiency, e.g. less insulation requires more A/C. I'd kind of expect the opposite, with everything from cabins to restaurants being comparatively cramped. Maybe energy is just being wasted, what with the power plant being right there.
Obviously the power generation is 100% fossil, but the power on land is also generated somewhere, and it's usually not green -- though this is increasingly an argument.
The crude oil is bad, yes, but also used by cargo ships which must dwarf cruise ships by a ludicrous amount.
The raw sewage is specific to cruises, admittedly, though I'm sure plenty of raw sewage and worse is dumped into our oceans by land dwellers. But that is no defense.
Don't get me wrong, I have no desire to go on a cruise, it sounds like hell to me. I'm perfectly willing to believe they're inefficient, I just don't quite understand why.
Also, a third of the CO2 attributed to the cruise ship vacation is the flight there and back. Which is fair enough if you ask me, just noteworthy and is gonna vary a lot depending on how far people have to fly to get there.
> I wonder. From first principles, I don't quite understand how cruise ships can be that bad.
Because of tragedy of commons. There is very little environmental regulation affecting shipping. And cruise ships can utilise flags of convenience to skirt the little that there is.
You could totally make them more efficient and less harmful, but that would cost money, and hence hurt shareholder value.
For example, we've been cruising on a sailboat since last April. Germany - Scotland - Madeira - Canary Islands. All areas also frequented by cruise ships. Almost all of our electricity (~1.4kWh per day) comes from solar and wind. We do burn some fuel when becalmed or doing harbour manouvers. Since mid-July we burned 140l of diesel, which comes to 380kg of CO2. Not nothing, but also not terrible.
On top of that we burn about 1l of ethanol per week for cooking purposes.
Building the sailboat of course caused a lot of emissions, but amortised over the 45 years this boat has been sailing, probably aren't too bad. And equipment like sails and ropes are mostly made of recycled plastics, and last many years.
But of course we lack some luxuries that the cruising customers expect. There's no AC, and the only swimming pool available is the sea. Showers are on deck and require boiling some hot water. And worse of all, we don't have the energy budget to run Starlink 24/7, so there's only couple of hours of Internet per day.
>I don't quite understand how cruise ships can be that bad.
Many many reasons. Cruise ships use some of the worst, most polluting fuel in general. They are barely a step above floating coal power plants. They also have significantly fewer systems to "filter" the exhaust compared to a power plant. Despite that, they have insane energy needs.
Medium cruise ships are capable of over 50 Megawatts of power generation. They usually have about 10 megawatts of constant "hotel" load. These ships are air conditioning a huge volume, extremely leaky in terms of insulation, and are constantly in the hot and humid tropics. They also have to "generate", ie boil and condense, tens of gallons of water per person, per day. 10 Megawatts for about 3500 people is not great. A megawatt can conservatively power 500 homes. They also rarely use power hookups in port, so they will be running that 10 megawatts of diesel output even in port.
Cruise ships also do not steam for efficiency the way most merchant vessels do, but rather to meet a strict timetable like an airline. The same medium cruise ship will spend about 30 megawatts to go 25 knots from port to port.
Many of those things also seem to apply to large hotel and leisure resorts -- huge volume, leaky construction, hot environment. I wonder how much power they allocate per guest.
The points regarding energy intensive water treatment and less efficient movement are well taken, though.
Thanks for applying scepticism to the claim! Yes, cruise ships are bad for all sorts of reasons - but from an absolute energy consumption point of view there’s no way they’re as bad as people are making out.
Just as high density apartment living is the most efficient way to live on land, there must be similar benefits in a ship. I’d be surprised if the energy consumption per person was much higher than that of a land based resort.
The ships engine will be less efficient than a modern power station, and there’s no zero carbon generation on a ship. That might account for 4x CO2 per kWh. Anything more seems suspect.
>>> The average EU citizen living in "centuries old city centers" emits ~5.66 tCO2eq/year
As the GP said, that excludes the flight to get there. Also it does not include going to a swimming pool everyday, and probably not crazy 15°C/60°F AC [1]. It's not a good comparison of old style turism with crouse turism.
[1] At home I use the AC at 26°C/79°F. It's insane to use a wool pullover in summer just because someone likes the AC at 15°C/60°F.
Cities have vast water and trash treatment facilities, at least in developed countries. Those facilities are at most decades old. Even if the sewer system itself may be centuries old, it is maintained as failing sewers are health risks. Also, cities make less use of disposable items.
I can be contrarian at times, but that's just plain wrong.
No mention that the British Cunard liners, like the Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth, were subsidised by the government.
The government loved having big fast ships it could requisition as troup carriers. The two queens were too fast to be intercepted by uboats. Mary moved 800k troups in WW2
As late as 1982 the Canberra was requisitioned and sent to the Falkland Islands conflict.
*troop.
It's funnier if you imagine the government needing to move large numbers of actors and circus performers.
Not actually saving them. Just collecting souvenirs and mementos before they are scrapped.
Yeah the title is a bit deceptive; nobody in their right mind tries to "save" an old cruise ship. A home rental company here (idk what they're called) invested in buying an old ocean liner (the SS Rotterdam) to convert it to housing or an event center, it was a flop that cost them over a hundred million euros and led to a parlimentary investigation - since they're a housing company, that >100 million should have been spent on building and maintaining their properties, including social housing, instead of risky investments in asbestos-ridden old ships.
Someone in Long Beach did.
The City of Long Beach itself did as a way to promote tourism. It was government funded and turned into a financial disaster too, with management of the ship changing hands a bunch of times because it wasn’t financially viable.
Yes. Before the article got to that revelation, I was wondering where this guy got all his money to save entire ships.
I'll remind my wife that my vintage computer collection hobby could be a whole lot worse...
My favorite anecdote of this is talking with railroad people. Talking about rolling stock, and locomotives.
And talking with someone (at a museum, or something, I don't recall) they mentioned something like "Yea, we think we all of the locomotives tracked down, but there's always the chance one might be in someones private collection somewhere."
And I just have to marvel at the idea that someone, somewhere, has a locomotive shoved in a barn somewhere out of public view. This isn't Steve McQueens Bullit Mustangs under a tarp somewhere. It's a locomotive!
I had a friend that collected pinball machines, that was an endeavor all its own.
Or a lightning
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LnGXerN0tlo
I was half expecting our friend, Mike Brady, from Oceanliner Designs.
No mention of how cruise ships are essentially entire cities powered by fossil fuels that dump their waste directly into the ocean?
It's a short article in a travel magazine, about one guy's adventures sneaking into scrapping facilities to snag a few trinkets. A pretty niche topic.
From the editor's PoV, your facts aren't relevant to the article. And, by travel magazine standards, he's already slipped in a boatload of more-relevant cruise industry negatives.
Exactly. In terms of CO2 emissions, you're better off flying to a tropical destination and booking a hotel. The cruise ship will burn much more fuel than the jet per passenger in just a couple of days. If you stay on the thing for a month, it's going to be an order of magnitude more. There's nothing green or clean about these things.
They also have a huge ecological impact on the destinations they go to; some of which may have fragile coral reefs or other marine life that doesn't respond to well to the presence of waste dumping cruise ships. The Venetian lagoon is now off limits for cruise ships. But that's because it has sustained a lot of damage over the years. A lot of other destinations are still being actively destroyed by cruise ship tourism.
The estimates I'm seeing is that cruise ships are about 2x-3x the emissions per kilometer than flying to a destination and staying there (obviously, it varies with a lot of factors). So if you were flying to a nearby island, you would have fewer CO2 emissions. But something like a trip to Thailand could end up having more CO2 emissions than a cruise.
It is kind of strange, though, that I always hear about the carbon foot print when cruises get brought up, but I almost never hear about it when vacationing in general is brought up. It seems like if people were really concerned, they'd be telling people to go to local beaches and not beaches on the other side of the planet, but I've never seen people say "Don't go to Malaysia! If you go to Cancun you'll be creating much lower CO2 emissions."
I get the feeling that cruise ships in particular are targeted because, unlike trips to Southeast Asia, going on a cruise ship is considered "uncool."
Plenty of folks say "try not to fly" in general (was it France that banned short haul flights for trains recently?) but "don't take that long haul to where you've dreamed of your whole life" is a significantly less practical pitch than "well if you want to see the Caribbean spend more time there by taking a more eco-friendly flight rather riding on a cruise ship".
> but "don't take that long haul to where you've dreamed of your whole life" is a significantly less practical pitch than "well if you want to see the Caribbean spend more time there by taking a more eco-friendly flight rather riding on a cruise ship".
This framing is already putting a pretty strong bias into it. Your preferred vacation is something "you've dreamed of your whole life," while their preferred vacations is simply how they prefer to "ride" to a location.
One could also say that "don't take that cruise you always dreamed of your whole life" is a significantly less practical pitch than "well if you want to go to a beach, go to a beach closer to your house."
Both of that statement and yours treat something that most people consider extremely important (being on a cruise, having the beach they go to be in South East Asia) as being merely incidental to the vacation itself.
I'd agree there is bias but argue the framing is highlighting, not introducing, it. E.g. how many wanting to take a cruise are just as happy with Norfolk, Baltimore, and Wilmington as stops vs San Juan, St. Thomas, and St Martin? I'm sure someone out there is but they are certainly going to be the minority. In a cruise where you are going is still a central part of the vacation and you can keep a large part of that even if you remove the ship. In your alternative you're throwing out the entire trip with the bathwater - one is a compromise, the other a full sacrifice. No matter how you want to slice that it's a much more grating pitch for the average tourist.
> I'd agree there is bias but argue the framing is highlighting, not introducing, it. E.g. how many wanting to take a cruise are just as happy with Norfolk, Baltimore, and Wilmington as stops vs San Juan, St. Thomas, and St Martin?
That's like arguing that if someone wants to go to Phuket instead of an industrial town in Thailand, then going to Thailand isn't that important to them and they should just go to Cancun. You can't really say "unless you're happy with _any_ vacation that has X, you don't care that much about X." For almost everyone, a vacation relies on several different elements coming together.
The point was "most people dream of cruises to interesting places, not cruises themselves" and your response was "people don't want to take vacations to boring places either"? Nobody is actually going to go to boring places in these examples, they'll almost always pick the most interesting destinations because that's the most important part and the cruise ships or other things are the smaller parts. The flight is intentionally irrelevant to itself in vacations - it's the fastest (and less CO2 heavy than cruise) way to get to the important part. If the cruise were the more important part of the vacation then destination wouldn't matter was all the example was about so applying it to the destination doesn't make sense (the destination can't have a different importance than the destination).
That doesn't mean the utility of a cruise is 0, it means the utility of the cruise is less than the utility of the destination for the vacation -> an easier pitch to change the cruise rather than the destination. Say your goal is to convince someone to reduce emission for their vacation, how would you intuitively rank these in terms of "easiest pitch" to "hardest pitch" and why?
A: "I know you've always want to go to St. Martin but you should look into flying rather than a cruise because..."
B: "I know you've always wanted to go to St. Martin but you should look into <some closer beach they can drive or fly to> because..."
C: "I know you've always wanted to go to Asia but you should look into a flight to Cancun because..."
To me it I'd go the easiest is A (they still go where they want to go), then B (they still go somewhere interesting), then C (they go to the least interesting place). The latter 2 both pretty hard sells though. I'm curious if you rank B and C as easier pitches? If so that could possibly be part of the answer to your original question about why you expect people to talk about flights more than you hear? I.e. I'm not saying you must agree just that perhaps there is a difference of opinion vs most people driving that split.
> The point was "most people dream of cruises to interesting places, not cruises themselves" and your response was "people don't want to take vacations to boring places either"
No, my is that just as many people dream of going on the cruises themselves, so you can't simply slice that out and say "transportation is transportation" just like you can't simply slice out the fact that the beach someone is going to is in Thailand and not closer by. It may be an incidental part of the vacation fro some people, but the people paying more to go to Thailand are doing it because Thailand is important to them, and the people paying more to be on a cruise are doing it because a cruise is important to them.
I understand that people who don't cruises might not understand that, but that's not terribly surprising, is it? The people who do will pay vastly different prices depending on the ship they're going on, and some people say they don't even get off on certain destinations and stay aboard the ship. Depending on the individual, the destination is more incidental than the ship. This is also obvious if you notice that when people take a cruise, they are significantly decreasing their time at these destinations in order to increase their time at on the cruise, which wouldn't make any sense if the cruise was just a means to get them to a destination.
At the very least, people should notice all the people who will pay money to have a boat take them around in a circle for an hour, and realize that some people do really like just being out on the water (though cruises are usually much more than that, but it's another topic).
> The Venetian lagoon is now off limits for cruise ships. But that's because it has sustained a lot of damage over the years.
The problem with Venice is more that the cruise ships bring in large amounts of "day tourists" - they come in in the morning, eat some overpriced pizza and pasta, buy overpriced Chinese-made "authentic" souvenirs, and leave in the evening, not contributing much to the local economy.
How is that not contributing much to the local economy?
Because the income is spread to a very few people - those lucky enough to own a pizza or coffee store along popular tourist routes. Everyone else doesn't profit at all from the tourists or makes only pittances.
That is not enough to sustain a healthy city, which led to most of Venice being left for grabs for AirBnBs - good luck finding regular Venetians actually living in their city.
Responsible tourists not only buy food and souvenirs and tours, they also hire carpenters and assistant key account managers, as well as purchase sheet metal, plastic pylons and diesel engines to support local jobs.
Saying that only very few people profit from the tourists is like saying only very few people profit from the factory behind the city. You are totally right that only few people profit but this is the case with everything unfortunately.
Hasn’t the entire city of Venice been anlmost exclusively funded by and setup for tourism for hundreds of years?
Day tourism is far less beneficial to locals than overnight tourism.
Not hundreds but it is for sure right now. It has been for decades.
I don't see how "day tourists" are different from other types of tourists.
Other types of tourists spend much more time in the city, they sleep in hotels, they also visit more than just the Piazza San Marco (and thus, distribute traffic flow much more evenly).
Which is why they started charging money to enter the city.
Everything you mentioned is a contribution to the local economy, though?
Tourism is €215 billion of Italy's income, about 1/10th of its GDP. Rich tourists coming off cruise ships doing impulse buys at huge profit margins sounds like a good thing to me, from a purely capitalist perspective.
It is the "local economy" only if you believe in trickle-down economics.
The area of visited by cruise ship tourists is typically a very small fraction of the port city. Worse, the establishments in that area only account for a small fraction of the overall local employment, and are owned by a handful of families or (worse) funds/corporations.
So money does flow, but not really to the local economy, apart from a number of low-paid service jobs.
You also appear to have a very outdated view of cruise ship tourism. What "rich tourists"? These days it is the less well-off that go on cruises, even choosing to cruise through their retirement as the cheaper option [1]. Nobody is going to make expensive purchases as they have already visited half a dozen ports before their current stop and have another half a dozen to go.
[1] https://globalnews.ca/news/10004079/retired-couple-51-consec...
Problem is that it doesn't actually work that way. The boat tourist don't spend too much, or comparatively spend lot less than those that visit cities in other ways. The infra to support the ships cost money, and then usually any activities are run by ship owners. Plus full board is standard so many prefer to eat there and also sleep.
It is much more efficient to focus on tourists that live in hotels, buy every meal from local restaurants or at least shops. Have actual time to spend in more than main attractions as such diffuse over larger area. And well have more time for shopping or do it at local airport.
Wait until they hear about people travelling in camper vans that cook their own meals and just park by the roadside for sleeping! Or even worse, bicycle tourists who bivouac by the river, they don't even buy gas!
Camper vans are already a big problem for some rural areas. And they don’t tend to contribute much to the local economy. You phrased it like that was a gotcha, but it’s not really. Camper-vans and cruises are both high-impact low benefit forms of tourism.
I wouldn’t put bike tourists in that group - because they are incredibly low impact in comparison, and in my experience most bike tourists are spending money as they go - either on accommodation or food.
How many camper cans and bike tourists descend on Venice every day?
Sure, camper and bike tourists probably don’t contribute much to local economies, but they also have negligible negative impacts, so what’s your point?
Also, cruise ships must be extremely boring to be on. You're basically held captive inside a floating shopping mall for weeks.
I wonder how many people book a second trip.
Surprisingly a ton of people.
I just got off a QM2 transatlantic crossing(which is about as captive/boring as cruises can get?) Friday. I went on a lark, I have never “cruised”(and had a pretty negative view of it - all people do is eat and drink etc)but had an itch to cross the ocean on a ship in old timey titanic type way. I’m also ~30(which might as well be 16 on a cunard ship - very very old crowd) and went alone. I expected this was mostly a bucket list type thing people did once, or a select coterie of people who both need to travel and cannot fly.
My most surprising takeaway was that almost everyone had done it before, a lot of people many many times. It was legitimately rare to meet a first timer, even among the relatively young group I fell into.
The boring bit is more subjective, it was more fun than I expected. I can see why people love it. “enforced” relaxation, no stops, peaceful, easy, etc.
So someone pitches you a floating city complete with amusement park, hotel, entertainment venues and restaurants that trots around the world dropping you off at nearly everything interesting on the way, and you think it sounds boring?
I don't like cruise ships for reasons, but they never struck me as 'boring '.
Also a spa, and a casino, usually.
They are a floating mini-Vegas hotel. A lot of the same reasons people find Las Vegas fun are the same for a cruise ship, if maybe just in "miniature" (though the scale factor is now questionable on some of the huge ships), just that when you get the chance to leave the hotel you aren't stepping into Nevada desert, you've got an island beach or a cool port town to explore, and a variety of them at that.
Depends on the trip but it's more like a hotel that shows up in a different city every day, so there's something new all the time if you get off the boat.
My perspective as well. When I was high school and college I went on a few cruises with my elderly grandparents. We had a blast. Every morning you wake up in a new city without the bother of packing bags or spending any time actually going there. Unlike airports, piers are frequently in the oldest most interesting part of the city and you can directly walk to see quite a bit.
Isn't that going a little far in applying your subjective preferences to universal fact? Lots of people love cruise ships - they seem to be a pretty good business, in fact.
I agree that they aren’t exactly clean. But the article is about something else.
If we can’t have articles about specific topics without first having disclaimers about general issues.
I see it more like having a discussion, of some things the topic triggers and are very adjacent, crticism of cruise ships fit very well with articles about cruise ships.
You may very well add more thoughts about the specific one, about saving historic cruise ships to improve the balance.
Well since they are not clean; what's the point in trying to preserve them? I'd argue getting rid of them is a good thing. Especially the older more inefficient ones.
Read the article
Also, the article does touch on the environmental and human-rights issues of shipbreaking.
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No more than other cities. I wonder if a modern ship is more efficient than the centuries old city centers
Absolutely more than other cities. These things literally run on crude oil and dump shit (literall, and worse) unfiltered into the ocean.
Plus, as someone living a few hundred meters from a harbor that hosts these abominations, I can tell you that the kind of tourism they foster is super toxic to local politics. And, as someone engaged in local air quality measurements here, I can also tell you that they're toxic, in the literal sense, to the people living downwind from the harbor.
At this point, the only way forward I see is to outright ban these things.
/rant
Probably not. The average EU citizen living in "centuries old city centers" emits ~5.66 tCO2eq/year [1], while an analysis of cruise ship vacations for Seattle shows each passenger emitting on average ~421 kg/day [2], equaling ~153 tCO2eq/year (27x the EU average).
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...
[2] https://foe.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/Comparison_of_CO2...
I wonder. From first principles, I don't quite understand how cruise ships can be that bad.
It's not obvious to me how tourists on a ship can use much more energy than of they were in a land based resort. Yes, they're moving, but ships move very efficiently, which is why it's used for bulk transport. And tourists on land also move, often by car. Or are cruise ships more comparable to cars than cargo ships in terms of movement?
The facilities themselves, pools, rides, restaurants, A/C, theatres, are all also used on land and I don't the why they would be less efficient on a ship. Unless being on a ship results in trade-offs that impact efficiency, e.g. less insulation requires more A/C. I'd kind of expect the opposite, with everything from cabins to restaurants being comparatively cramped. Maybe energy is just being wasted, what with the power plant being right there.
Obviously the power generation is 100% fossil, but the power on land is also generated somewhere, and it's usually not green -- though this is increasingly an argument.
The crude oil is bad, yes, but also used by cargo ships which must dwarf cruise ships by a ludicrous amount.
The raw sewage is specific to cruises, admittedly, though I'm sure plenty of raw sewage and worse is dumped into our oceans by land dwellers. But that is no defense.
Don't get me wrong, I have no desire to go on a cruise, it sounds like hell to me. I'm perfectly willing to believe they're inefficient, I just don't quite understand why.
The linked study is pretty bad. It seems to get it's data from https://seattlecruisecontrol.org/learn/greenhouse-gas-emissi... which itself is based on website CO2 calculators. That's not exactly science.
Also, a third of the CO2 attributed to the cruise ship vacation is the flight there and back. Which is fair enough if you ask me, just noteworthy and is gonna vary a lot depending on how far people have to fly to get there.
> I wonder. From first principles, I don't quite understand how cruise ships can be that bad.
Because of tragedy of commons. There is very little environmental regulation affecting shipping. And cruise ships can utilise flags of convenience to skirt the little that there is.
You could totally make them more efficient and less harmful, but that would cost money, and hence hurt shareholder value.
For example, we've been cruising on a sailboat since last April. Germany - Scotland - Madeira - Canary Islands. All areas also frequented by cruise ships. Almost all of our electricity (~1.4kWh per day) comes from solar and wind. We do burn some fuel when becalmed or doing harbour manouvers. Since mid-July we burned 140l of diesel, which comes to 380kg of CO2. Not nothing, but also not terrible. On top of that we burn about 1l of ethanol per week for cooking purposes. Building the sailboat of course caused a lot of emissions, but amortised over the 45 years this boat has been sailing, probably aren't too bad. And equipment like sails and ropes are mostly made of recycled plastics, and last many years.
But of course we lack some luxuries that the cruising customers expect. There's no AC, and the only swimming pool available is the sea. Showers are on deck and require boiling some hot water. And worse of all, we don't have the energy budget to run Starlink 24/7, so there's only couple of hours of Internet per day.
>I don't quite understand how cruise ships can be that bad.
Many many reasons. Cruise ships use some of the worst, most polluting fuel in general. They are barely a step above floating coal power plants. They also have significantly fewer systems to "filter" the exhaust compared to a power plant. Despite that, they have insane energy needs.
Medium cruise ships are capable of over 50 Megawatts of power generation. They usually have about 10 megawatts of constant "hotel" load. These ships are air conditioning a huge volume, extremely leaky in terms of insulation, and are constantly in the hot and humid tropics. They also have to "generate", ie boil and condense, tens of gallons of water per person, per day. 10 Megawatts for about 3500 people is not great. A megawatt can conservatively power 500 homes. They also rarely use power hookups in port, so they will be running that 10 megawatts of diesel output even in port.
Cruise ships also do not steam for efficiency the way most merchant vessels do, but rather to meet a strict timetable like an airline. The same medium cruise ship will spend about 30 megawatts to go 25 knots from port to port.
Many of those things also seem to apply to large hotel and leisure resorts -- huge volume, leaky construction, hot environment. I wonder how much power they allocate per guest.
The points regarding energy intensive water treatment and less efficient movement are well taken, though.
Thanks for applying scepticism to the claim! Yes, cruise ships are bad for all sorts of reasons - but from an absolute energy consumption point of view there’s no way they’re as bad as people are making out.
Just as high density apartment living is the most efficient way to live on land, there must be similar benefits in a ship. I’d be surprised if the energy consumption per person was much higher than that of a land based resort.
The ships engine will be less efficient than a modern power station, and there’s no zero carbon generation on a ship. That might account for 4x CO2 per kWh. Anything more seems suspect.
> there’s no way
If the evidence doesn't match your theory, you need either more evidence or a new theory.
> The crude oil is bad, yes, but also used by cargo ships which must dwarf cruise ships by a ludicrous amount.
Cargo ships don't need much power output in port. The main power plants are shut down, usually it's only the (tiny) auxiliary generator unit in use.
A cruise ship however? That one runs orders of magnitude more electrical stuff all the time, and that's a loooot of fuel consumed.
>>> The average EU citizen living in "centuries old city centers" emits ~5.66 tCO2eq/year
As the GP said, that excludes the flight to get there. Also it does not include going to a swimming pool everyday, and probably not crazy 15°C/60°F AC [1]. It's not a good comparison of old style turism with crouse turism.
[1] At home I use the AC at 26°C/79°F. It's insane to use a wool pullover in summer just because someone likes the AC at 15°C/60°F.
Cities have vast water and trash treatment facilities, at least in developed countries. Those facilities are at most decades old. Even if the sewer system itself may be centuries old, it is maintained as failing sewers are health risks. Also, cities make less use of disposable items.
I can be contrarian at times, but that's just plain wrong.
This is drastically, drastically, drastically underestimating how efficient cities are.
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Couldn’t make it past the second paragraph. So pretentiously written