> Tesla has missed on pricing with new vehicle programs before,
> But when it comes to specs, Tesla has generally delivered on its promises.
That's an easy cop-out. If in good-faith, it just means that Tesla knows how to build the spec but has no idea what it means to scale it. In bad-faith, it's a calculated unfettered media-hype.
I would expect a company which reached the stage of presenting a product to have at least a prototype as well as some grasp on its BOM and how this product could be mass-produced. If the company also announces a price, I expect it to have done its homework before involving the public.
Letting this expectation continuously slide to allow yet-another media-spectacle of "Tesla announcing a sub-30.000 <whatever>" is quite a weakness in critical journalism (and thinking).
The fact that Tesla generally delivered on spec but not on price is exactly what I was commenting on. It's not a quality, it's still bad management.
Especially if you consider that they may have silently reduced spec in other areas to somehow meet their announced price, i.e. reducing material-quality, mounting components with adhesive, etc.
The fact that they didn't deliver on price and spec on the Cybertruck is actually proving the assumption that their product-announcements are not sufficiently grounded in reality.
I find your comment quite strange to be honest, and it's not comment. There are so many "the-final-straw-that-broke-the-camel's-back-I-cancelled-my-order" comments out there, of folks claiming loudly that they're getting an F150 instead.
The F150 and the Cybertruck is so far apart in terms of the type of vehicle they are that I can't really understand how they are used in the same conversation. It makes 0 sense to me to say "I'm going with the F150 instead", because it's not the same class of vehicles.
I'm keen to understand what you were hoping to get out the Cybertruck, that you are now instead going to get from a hybrid F150, and why you did not consider the F150 in the first place.
I find this elitist attitude towards trucks (well, anything to be honest) quite weird.
1. By definition, you need a truck if you’re decided on getting one.
2. There are no objective criteria you need to pass in order to get one, other than having the finances.
3. You’re projecting your own world view on others.
In this case it makes sense because if you needed the actual truck capabilities they'd buy a different truck because the Cybertruck wouldn't fit the criteria of others from a category that would fit. The only reason people can change between both models is they didn't need truck features in the first place and it was more of an aesthetic choice, which is fine but that's what I meant by "not needing it".
Normal people buy so many things they do not need so often that I find this comment ridiculous. Yep, people buy cars they dont need, furniture they dont need and random crap they dont need.
> The F150 and the Cybertruck is so far apart in terms of the type of vehicle they are that I can't really understand how they are used in the same conversation. It makes 0 sense to me to say "I'm going with the F150 instead", because it's not the same class of vehicles.
Are they not both trucks? What am I missing in that they are not the same class of vehicle?
Also the Cybertruck is vastly outselling the electric f150, and there is almost no wait now, unlike the f150 which ford don’t seem to be able to scale production
I'll say this, I preordered both a Rivian and a Cybertruck when they announced and I purchased the Rivian because it was available roughly 2 years before the Cybertruck even started deliveries.
I've had some small teething problems with the truck but it has been the best vehicle I've ever driven. It works perfectly as a regular daily driver but I can load my SCUBA gear and tanks into the back, and go off-road, get a bunch of dives in, and be back to my truck that I've outfitted with fresh water for a shower, a fridge in the frunk for snacks and drinks, and a gear tunnel with dry and warm clothes.
Now that I can charge on the Supercharger network, the truck has just gotten even better since I no longer have to plan out my charging as carefully. The Rivian is built like a tank, it's handled everything I've thrown at it in stride, and the Rivian software folks have been making progress month after month.
I'm so glad that I bought a Rivian but really, I'm even more glad that I didn't buy a Cybertruck given the absolutely disastrous launch that its had. Just off the top of my head, I've heard of wheels falling off, trim falling off, tonneau cover nonfunctional and non removable, 20% less range than marketed, accelerator pedal falling off and sticking, PRNDL falling off, seats that creak and wiggle, poor offroading capabilities, red screen of death, FSD driving the truck into the wrong lanes, and I'm sure there are many other issues that I've not even heard about.
As a long time Tesla owner (I was an early adopter of the first gen Model S), I expected the overpromise and underdelivery of their products, but I'm pretty sure I'm never going back to Tesla if Rivian and other auto companies deliver better value and quality EVs.
> I'm pretty sure I'm never going back to Tesla if Rivian and other auto companies deliver better value and quality EVs
Which is a very sober and reasonable statement. If other companies deliver better value and quality, the only reason to buy a Tesla would be brand-loyalty (which is not a good reason to compromise on value/quality)
That was true before the software update that enabled the lockers. YouTube channels like TFL did a before/after video and it’s actually pretty good now.
It has lockers and huge ground clearance after all. Of course it is hindered by its huge length compared to a wrangler, but of course it’s not in the same class. It does better than an f150 for example.
Also the stock tires are crap for real off-roading, and hardly anyone knows you need to air down.
(Disclaimer: never owned a Tesla, but I off road 4x4s around the world for a living)
Overpromise and underdeliver. But this strategy still has its merit because it often is important in a competetive market just to be "first" somehow and capture a certain notion in people's mind. Just like Tesla in general now personifies electric cars because it was first (which it wasn't, but it certainly kicked off the mainstream EV market in the West). With the Cybertruck reveal, the point was to present something radical. The design, the numbers! Whether Tesla can actually deliver that by the time the truck comes to the market is almost secondary. Sure, some people are going to be pissed off, but in other people's minds, forever there will be this memory engrained of this amazingly radical thing this amazingly different company, Tesla, did back in 2019.
Btw, can you believe it's been 5 years since the Cybertruck was first unvealed?
Cybertruck was supposed to be first by taking a radically different approach to building a truck that would let them deliver a lighter (structural exoskeleton) and cheaper (no paint) truck to offset the expensive batteries.
In the time it took them to do that, cheaper batteries in a standard truck became feasible.
Getting first doesn't mean much if you don't keep up with innovation. Just look at Xerox, Kodak, Nokia, Blackberry... Plenty of companies have had good products but were then outpaced by people who took what they did and made it better, cheaper, whatever.
> Tesla has missed on pricing with new vehicle programs before, and inflation has been exceptionally high in the few years between the original unveiling and pricing of the Cybertruck in 2019 and its start of production last year.
> But when it comes to specs, Tesla has generally delivered on its promises. Not with the Cybertruck.
Agree. The miss on range with the Cybertruck is too big to ignore. I can understand the price increases due to inflation or whatever. But the enticing thing was getting 500+ miles on the tri motor version, which would have made it unlike anything else - a magical mix of power, utility, and range to put it to use (or just help with range anxiety). The drop from “500+” to 320 is HUGE.
I don’t know if this range extender really makes sense either. Will people really pay 16K more to get 120 miles more while losing 1/3rd of their bed space? To me that seems like a bad deal. Why not just get a Model X at that point?
As an alternative I would prefer a PHEV truck that provides 50 miles of range so most trips are fully electric, but with a gas engine available for longer trips. The 2025 Ram 1500 Ramcharger will provide that, with an engine that works as a generator (to power electric motors).
The drop from 500 to 320 also meant that towing a decent load dropped from like 180 to 80. It became useless for anything but around town towing.
> The 2025 Ram 1500 Ramcharger will provide that, with an engine that works as a generator (to power electric motors).
I’ve heard so little about this since the announcement I’m really worried it’s going to be killed or pushed out 4 years with the rest of the industry walking back their EV promises.
I wonder if you could get a useful system without using up the entire bed. In order to get "infinite" range while towing, you'd probably want at least a 100kW ICE in the back. A 100kW diesel generator is a beefy boy, those usually come on a two axle trailer. But maybe you could build something more compact with a performance motorcycle engine...
Also, can the cybertruck charge its main battery from the range extender? Or can it drive while the charging port is supplied with current? The entire idea kind of dies if the ICE can't charge the main battery, you really want that to buffer demand.
Agreed with regard to the project dying if it can't charge the main battery.
Supposing that's not a problem, if the GP is right about the Ramcharger using an ICE to run the electric motors, then in principle we pretty much already know it's possible from a power density perspective.
I suppose one could start running the generator at the beginning of the trip instead of waiting for the main battery to drain significantly. Perhaps you couldn't get "infinite" range, but you could stretch your main battery's range out far enough that for all practical purposes you wouldn't care—you could either get to a charger or find some diesel and wait an hour or two after a 10+ hour trip for the generator to recharge the main battery.
> the Ramcharger using an ICE to run the electric motors, then in principle we pretty much already know it's possible from a power density perspective
They have the advantage building the powerplant (and all its periphery) into the chassis. That saves a lot of material on engine mounts and covers, you can skip the cabin heater heat pump, ect.
A big difference is also if you design it for towing or not. You can probably get functionally infinite highway range with a 20kW ICE if you don't want to tow. And those you can build real tiny. You can probably do with a 125cc with the cutest little turbo the world has every seen.
Photos of the battery show it is half only full of cells, and a lead engineer at Tesla commented as much.
I think it likely there will be a much higher range version later, but they’re cell constrained for now so they’re only putting one layer of cells into the pack
The range extender is a bit of an odd product considering both the range added (limited) and the form factor (taking up a lot of space in the back).
While the range drop is disappointing, it's still plenty of range. More than enough for normal drivers that aren't anxiety ridden about range. Most people only drive about 12000 miles per year. And rarely over 300 in a single day. And when you do go on a long trip: relax, have a break (you'll need it) and charge up the car and yourself. It's not healthy to be on the road non stop regularly. You can charge the car up plenty over a nice lunch break. If you need a second stop after nine hours of driving or so, you need a break as well. And no, you aren't super human.
The product itself seems popular. Tesla now is starting to dominate the truck market. And they only barely started ramping up production. It's going to be interesting to see how they'll do when they reach their production volume targets. It's of course a divisive product with its styling and features. But it's arguably performing well in sales. Despite the currently high price.
That statement is spoken by people who only look at the us second quarter ev pickup truck sales and see the cyber truck at even with all others combined. Forgetting that is a tiny niche market, the time window is favourable for the cybertruck and forget the many of petrol versions.
Cybertruck steer-by-wire was really fun and interesting to try, some have FSD for test drives too, would really recommend giving it a try before hating so much:
https://www.tesla.com/drive
> Tesla has missed on pricing with new vehicle programs before,
> But when it comes to specs, Tesla has generally delivered on its promises.
That's an easy cop-out. If in good-faith, it just means that Tesla knows how to build the spec but has no idea what it means to scale it. In bad-faith, it's a calculated unfettered media-hype.
I would expect a company which reached the stage of presenting a product to have at least a prototype as well as some grasp on its BOM and how this product could be mass-produced. If the company also announces a price, I expect it to have done its homework before involving the public.
Letting this expectation continuously slide to allow yet-another media-spectacle of "Tesla announcing a sub-30.000 <whatever>" is quite a weakness in critical journalism (and thinking).
This is mentioned right after, which changes the meaning of the words quoted by you.
> Not with the Cybertruck.
It doesn't change the meaning.
The fact that Tesla generally delivered on spec but not on price is exactly what I was commenting on. It's not a quality, it's still bad management.
Especially if you consider that they may have silently reduced spec in other areas to somehow meet their announced price, i.e. reducing material-quality, mounting components with adhesive, etc.
The fact that they didn't deliver on price and spec on the Cybertruck is actually proving the assumption that their product-announcements are not sufficiently grounded in reality.
The range downgrade from initial presentation was the sole reason why I cancelled preorder and ended up with hybrid f150 instead.
I find your comment quite strange to be honest, and it's not comment. There are so many "the-final-straw-that-broke-the-camel's-back-I-cancelled-my-order" comments out there, of folks claiming loudly that they're getting an F150 instead.
The F150 and the Cybertruck is so far apart in terms of the type of vehicle they are that I can't really understand how they are used in the same conversation. It makes 0 sense to me to say "I'm going with the F150 instead", because it's not the same class of vehicles.
I'm keen to understand what you were hoping to get out the Cybertruck, that you are now instead going to get from a hybrid F150, and why you did not consider the F150 in the first place.
They fit perfectly together in the category "cool truck if you don't need a truck" so it's very easy to see why.
I find this elitist attitude towards trucks (well, anything to be honest) quite weird. 1. By definition, you need a truck if you’re decided on getting one. 2. There are no objective criteria you need to pass in order to get one, other than having the finances. 3. You’re projecting your own world view on others.
In this case it makes sense because if you needed the actual truck capabilities they'd buy a different truck because the Cybertruck wouldn't fit the criteria of others from a category that would fit. The only reason people can change between both models is they didn't need truck features in the first place and it was more of an aesthetic choice, which is fine but that's what I meant by "not needing it".
Normal people buy so many things they do not need so often that I find this comment ridiculous. Yep, people buy cars they dont need, furniture they dont need and random crap they dont need.
> The F150 and the Cybertruck is so far apart in terms of the type of vehicle they are that I can't really understand how they are used in the same conversation. It makes 0 sense to me to say "I'm going with the F150 instead", because it's not the same class of vehicles.
Are they not both trucks? What am I missing in that they are not the same class of vehicle?
Also the Cybertruck is vastly outselling the electric f150, and there is almost no wait now, unlike the f150 which ford don’t seem to be able to scale production
That might be, but the hybrid F150 is outselling the electric one.
Honestly I didn’t even know there was a hybrid f150.
It doesn’t make much sense to compare a hybrid with a “no gas” range of almost nothing [1] and a 1.5kwh battery to a fully electric vehicle
[1] https://www.f150gen14.com/forum/threads/powerboosts-poll-how...
I'll say this, I preordered both a Rivian and a Cybertruck when they announced and I purchased the Rivian because it was available roughly 2 years before the Cybertruck even started deliveries.
I've had some small teething problems with the truck but it has been the best vehicle I've ever driven. It works perfectly as a regular daily driver but I can load my SCUBA gear and tanks into the back, and go off-road, get a bunch of dives in, and be back to my truck that I've outfitted with fresh water for a shower, a fridge in the frunk for snacks and drinks, and a gear tunnel with dry and warm clothes.
Now that I can charge on the Supercharger network, the truck has just gotten even better since I no longer have to plan out my charging as carefully. The Rivian is built like a tank, it's handled everything I've thrown at it in stride, and the Rivian software folks have been making progress month after month.
I'm so glad that I bought a Rivian but really, I'm even more glad that I didn't buy a Cybertruck given the absolutely disastrous launch that its had. Just off the top of my head, I've heard of wheels falling off, trim falling off, tonneau cover nonfunctional and non removable, 20% less range than marketed, accelerator pedal falling off and sticking, PRNDL falling off, seats that creak and wiggle, poor offroading capabilities, red screen of death, FSD driving the truck into the wrong lanes, and I'm sure there are many other issues that I've not even heard about.
As a long time Tesla owner (I was an early adopter of the first gen Model S), I expected the overpromise and underdelivery of their products, but I'm pretty sure I'm never going back to Tesla if Rivian and other auto companies deliver better value and quality EVs.
> I'm pretty sure I'm never going back to Tesla if Rivian and other auto companies deliver better value and quality EVs
Which is a very sober and reasonable statement. If other companies deliver better value and quality, the only reason to buy a Tesla would be brand-loyalty (which is not a good reason to compromise on value/quality)
> I'm sure there are many other issues that I've not even heard about.
The windshield wiper committing suicide is a common one.
> poor offroading capabilities
That was true before the software update that enabled the lockers. YouTube channels like TFL did a before/after video and it’s actually pretty good now.
It has lockers and huge ground clearance after all. Of course it is hindered by its huge length compared to a wrangler, but of course it’s not in the same class. It does better than an f150 for example.
Also the stock tires are crap for real off-roading, and hardly anyone knows you need to air down.
(Disclaimer: never owned a Tesla, but I off road 4x4s around the world for a living)
Is anyone else experiencing repeated crashes when viewing this article via iOS Safari?
[dead]
Overpromise and underdeliver. But this strategy still has its merit because it often is important in a competetive market just to be "first" somehow and capture a certain notion in people's mind. Just like Tesla in general now personifies electric cars because it was first (which it wasn't, but it certainly kicked off the mainstream EV market in the West). With the Cybertruck reveal, the point was to present something radical. The design, the numbers! Whether Tesla can actually deliver that by the time the truck comes to the market is almost secondary. Sure, some people are going to be pissed off, but in other people's minds, forever there will be this memory engrained of this amazingly radical thing this amazingly different company, Tesla, did back in 2019.
Btw, can you believe it's been 5 years since the Cybertruck was first unvealed?
Cybertruck was supposed to be first by taking a radically different approach to building a truck that would let them deliver a lighter (structural exoskeleton) and cheaper (no paint) truck to offset the expensive batteries.
In the time it took them to do that, cheaper batteries in a standard truck became feasible.
Getting first doesn't mean much if you don't keep up with innovation. Just look at Xerox, Kodak, Nokia, Blackberry... Plenty of companies have had good products but were then outpaced by people who took what they did and made it better, cheaper, whatever.
tesla customer have again been musked.
I used to think no production vehicle could ever be uglier than a PT Cruiser.
The PT cruiser looks like a potato, and the Cybertruck looks like a potato slicer. It's a match made in heaven.
Fiat Multipla says hi.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Multipla
Cars which didnt upgrade from shinbone fracture profiles to hip fracture profiles have gone extinct and thats bad.
You're forgetting the Pontiac Aztek.
But yeah, this thing ranks right up there with the worst.
I wonder if it's the same people who buy all three. The people who dress up for Halloween 364 days a year.
> Tesla has missed on pricing with new vehicle programs before, and inflation has been exceptionally high in the few years between the original unveiling and pricing of the Cybertruck in 2019 and its start of production last year.
> But when it comes to specs, Tesla has generally delivered on its promises. Not with the Cybertruck.
Agree. The miss on range with the Cybertruck is too big to ignore. I can understand the price increases due to inflation or whatever. But the enticing thing was getting 500+ miles on the tri motor version, which would have made it unlike anything else - a magical mix of power, utility, and range to put it to use (or just help with range anxiety). The drop from “500+” to 320 is HUGE.
I don’t know if this range extender really makes sense either. Will people really pay 16K more to get 120 miles more while losing 1/3rd of their bed space? To me that seems like a bad deal. Why not just get a Model X at that point?
As an alternative I would prefer a PHEV truck that provides 50 miles of range so most trips are fully electric, but with a gas engine available for longer trips. The 2025 Ram 1500 Ramcharger will provide that, with an engine that works as a generator (to power electric motors).
The drop from 500 to 320 also meant that towing a decent load dropped from like 180 to 80. It became useless for anything but around town towing.
> The 2025 Ram 1500 Ramcharger will provide that, with an engine that works as a generator (to power electric motors).
I’ve heard so little about this since the announcement I’m really worried it’s going to be killed or pushed out 4 years with the rest of the industry walking back their EV promises.
Is anyone actually using Cybertrucks for towing heavy loads? I'm under the impression it's mostly a recreational vehicle.
There are definitely pictures of people who try, one bloke put a towing crane thing in the bed of theirs: https://i.redd.it/32fsd1elmfvd1.jpeg
I think the stickers are the primary function, the crane is only to increase the liklyhood of someone photographing/sharing.
Not really because of the range issue I mentioned. I wanted it to tow my 9,000lb trailer.
It'd be funny to hack the range extender's protocol so you could install a diesel electric generator instead of a battery pack.
Interesting project.
I wonder if you could get a useful system without using up the entire bed. In order to get "infinite" range while towing, you'd probably want at least a 100kW ICE in the back. A 100kW diesel generator is a beefy boy, those usually come on a two axle trailer. But maybe you could build something more compact with a performance motorcycle engine...
Also, can the cybertruck charge its main battery from the range extender? Or can it drive while the charging port is supplied with current? The entire idea kind of dies if the ICE can't charge the main battery, you really want that to buffer demand.
Agreed with regard to the project dying if it can't charge the main battery.
Supposing that's not a problem, if the GP is right about the Ramcharger using an ICE to run the electric motors, then in principle we pretty much already know it's possible from a power density perspective.
I suppose one could start running the generator at the beginning of the trip instead of waiting for the main battery to drain significantly. Perhaps you couldn't get "infinite" range, but you could stretch your main battery's range out far enough that for all practical purposes you wouldn't care—you could either get to a charger or find some diesel and wait an hour or two after a 10+ hour trip for the generator to recharge the main battery.
> the Ramcharger using an ICE to run the electric motors, then in principle we pretty much already know it's possible from a power density perspective
They have the advantage building the powerplant (and all its periphery) into the chassis. That saves a lot of material on engine mounts and covers, you can skip the cabin heater heat pump, ect.
A big difference is also if you design it for towing or not. You can probably get functionally infinite highway range with a 20kW ICE if you don't want to tow. And those you can build real tiny. You can probably do with a 125cc with the cutest little turbo the world has every seen.
A generator capable of more then 20mph charging would be beyond the towing capacity.
range extender wartime style:
https://x.com/KyivPost/status/1608407902242635781?lang=en
Photos of the battery show it is half only full of cells, and a lead engineer at Tesla commented as much.
I think it likely there will be a much higher range version later, but they’re cell constrained for now so they’re only putting one layer of cells into the pack
The range extender is a bit of an odd product considering both the range added (limited) and the form factor (taking up a lot of space in the back).
While the range drop is disappointing, it's still plenty of range. More than enough for normal drivers that aren't anxiety ridden about range. Most people only drive about 12000 miles per year. And rarely over 300 in a single day. And when you do go on a long trip: relax, have a break (you'll need it) and charge up the car and yourself. It's not healthy to be on the road non stop regularly. You can charge the car up plenty over a nice lunch break. If you need a second stop after nine hours of driving or so, you need a break as well. And no, you aren't super human.
The product itself seems popular. Tesla now is starting to dominate the truck market. And they only barely started ramping up production. It's going to be interesting to see how they'll do when they reach their production volume targets. It's of course a divisive product with its styling and features. But it's arguably performing well in sales. Despite the currently high price.
>Tesla now is starting to dominate the truck market.
Do you mean “dominate” in some sort of philosophical way unrelated to numbers?
That statement is spoken by people who only look at the us second quarter ev pickup truck sales and see the cyber truck at even with all others combined. Forgetting that is a tiny niche market, the time window is favourable for the cybertruck and forget the many of petrol versions.
Range extender's range extender when ?
The Full Self Extending Range Extender: preorder now! Only $7999!
The title here matches the original title of the article, but I have to say: what is with the comma between subject and predicate in a sentence?
Ex. Mary, eats a pie.
"Tesla delays [and] reduces": the comma is used as an "and" (common in American titles, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_splice)
The comma seems completely fine?
Your example is not the same construction, "Mary turns off the oven, eats a pie" is a more similar type of phrasal construction.
Cybertruck steer-by-wire was really fun and interesting to try, some have FSD for test drives too, would really recommend giving it a try before hating so much: https://www.tesla.com/drive