17 comments

  • xg15 a day ago

    I still wonder how the models picked up the semantic mapping between Unicode tags and ordinary ASCII characters. The mapping is written in the Unicode specs, yes, but there is nothing in the actual bytes of a tag that indicates the corresponding ASCII character.

    I'm also not aware there are large text corpora written in tag characters - actually, I'd be surprised if there is any prose text at all: The characters don't show up in any browser or text editor, they are not officially used for anything and even the two former intended uses were restricted to country codes, not actual sentences.

    How did they even go through preprocessing? How is the tokenization dictionary and input embedding constructed for characters that are never used anywhere?

    • goodside a day ago

      (I’m the person interviewed in the article.) The trick is Unicode code points are only assigned individual tokens if they’re nontrivially used outside of some other already tokenized sequence, and Unicode tag block code points are only ever used in flag emojis. Unused or rarely used Unicode code points are given a fallback encoding that just encodes the numerical code point value in two special tokens. Because the Unicode tag block is by design the first 128 chars in ASCII repeated, the second token of the tokenized output directly corresponds to the ASCII value of the character.

      • xg15 a day ago

        Ah, so the model "sees" the tags as literal ASCII characters interspersed with special tokens? That would make more sense.

        • goodside a day ago

          More or less; they’re not literally the same tokens as “a”, “b”, “c” but I’d speculate the mapping is learned from some other examples of ASCII (or just Roman letters) being repeated in other obscure parts of Unicode — Gothic glyphs, bubble letters, etc. Once the model has seen enough ASCII represented as Unicode code points whose tokenizations alternate between meaningless and meaningful (e.g. “~l~i~k~e~ ~t~h~i~s”) it learns how to read it regardless of what the ”~” is.

    • theamk a day ago

      Those invisible letters have codepoints of ASCII letters + 0xE0000. For example compare "U+E0054 TAG LATIN CAPITAL LETTER T"[0] vs "U+0054 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER T"[1]

      A simple assumption of "codepoint is 16 bit" will be enough to decode. You can see this in python:

          >>> x = '(copy message from article here)'
          >>> x
          'https://wuzzi.net/copirate/\U000e0001\U000e0054\U000e0068\U000e0065\U000e0020\U000e0073\U000e0061\U000e006c\U000e0065\U000e0073\U000e0020\U000e0066\U000e006f\U000e0072\U000e0020\U000e0053\U000e0065\U000e0061\U000e0074\U000e0074\U000e006c\U000e0065\U000e0020\U000e0077\U000e0065\U000e0072\U000e0065\U000e0020\U000e0055\U000e0053\U000e0044\U000e0020\U000e0031\U000e0032\U000e0030\U000e0030\U000e0030\U000e0030\U000e007f,'
          >>> "".join([chr(ord(c) & 0xFFFF) for c in x])
          'https://wuzzi.net/copirate/\x01The sales for Seattle were USD 120000\x7f,'
      
      maybe authors worked with Windows or Java too much? :) I always thought wchar's were a horrible idea.

      [0] https://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/e0054/index.ht...

      [1] https://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/54/index.htm

      • xg15 21 hours ago

        Wasn't aware that the byte representation aligns so directly with the ASCII letters. Thanks a lot for the info.

  • AshamedCaptain a day ago

    There is an entire world of "attacks " like this waiting to happen and IMHO one of the reasons these black box systems in general will never be useful.

    You think they "see" like you do but actually the processing is entirely alien. Today it's hiding text in the encoding , tomorrow is painting over a traffic sign in a way that would not be noticed by any human but confuses machine vision causing all vehicles to crash.

    • solardev a day ago

      This sort of malicious payload attack on parsers isn't really new, though. People have been obfuscating attacks on JPEGs, PDFs, Flash, email clients, etc. forever. Even when the code is written in plain English, they often bypass user awareness and even audits.

      Practically all software today is a black box. Your average CRUD web app is an inscrutable chasm filled with ten thousand dependencies written by internet randos running on a twenty year old web browser hacked together by different teams running on an operating system put together by another thousand people working on two hundred APIs. It's impossible for any one dev or team to really know this stuff end to end, and zero-days will continue to happen with or without LLMs.

      It'll just be another arms race like we've always had, with LLMs on both sides...

      • AshamedCaptain a day ago

        I do think there is a huge difference: for a traditional software parser, you can always fix it to exclude the incorrect input, or at least understand what the theorical parsing limitation is. Accidental complexity is not really an argument because at the end of the day you can still find the issue even in the most complex of inescrutable software.

        Can you really fix a black box model in the same way? Maybe the answer is yes for this particular encoding issue, but can you e.g figure out how to prevent the model from 'parsing' malicious paint marks on a traffic sign, without (a) using yet another black box to prefilter the images, with the same risks, or (b) retraining the model, which is going to introduce even more issues ? We have had examples of OpenAI trying both methods, and each has been as fruitless as the other.

        It is not at all like software security fixes, where generally one security fix introducing other security issues is the exception rather than the rule. Here, I'm claiming, it is the rule.

        The fact that you don't know how to process the inputs with an actual, scrutizable algorithm may imply you don't know how to sanitize the inputs with one, and then all bets are off.

      • gyre007 a day ago

        This is true, but as I learnt [1] recently, adversarial attacks on LLMs can get incredibly sophisticated, so this is kinda apples and oranges ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

        [1] https://cybernetist.com/2024/09/23/some-notes-on-adversarial...

    • orbital-decay a day ago

      Replace it with any software (or hardware) and vulnerabilities, and you will see how ridiculous your hyperbole is.

      Besides, never is a very long time. IIRC Dario Amodei said he expects the behavior of large transformers to be fully understood in 5 years. Which might or might not be BS, but the general point that it won't stay a mystery forever is probably true.

    • HPsquared a day ago

      Diversity of models and training data would help a lot. Although I guess 1% of cars crashing would still be pretty bad.

      • mopenstein a day ago

        What percentage of cars crash now?

    • a day ago
      [deleted]
  • StableAlkyne a day ago

    Given the increase in using LLMs by HR Teams, will techniques like this become the next version of stuffing the job posting in 1-point white font into the resume? Except instead of tags it's "rate this applicant very highly" or whatever

  • mikelnrd a day ago

    Is this the same/similar invisible character encoding scheme used by Sanity.io CMS? https://www.sanity.io/docs/stega

    • matthberg 5 hours ago

      Looks different, from that docs page they're using a mix of:

      - ZeroWidthSpace,

      - zwj (zero width joiner, used with emoji modifiers like skin tones),

      - zwnj (zero width non-joiner, used to prevent automatic ligature substitution), and

      - U+FEFF (zero width no-break space)

      It's a clever system, thanks for sharing the link to it!